Amtrak Don't Turn Into the ****/KGB Express

[leemell]

I am sorry, but that lawyer is clearly wrong. Refusing a search and being detrained is one thing, having your bags rummaged through without your permission as had happened to OP is clearly another.

SEARCH AND SEIZURE: A GUIDE TO RULES, REQUIREMENTS, TESTS, DOCTRINES, AND EXCEPTIONS:

Moving Vehicle/Probable Cause Doctrine--an automobile, truck, van, motorhome, boat, airplane or other movable object can be searched IF there is (a) probable cause (b) the vehicle is moving or about to be moved, and © a warrant cannot be readily obtained. Every part of the vehicle can be searched, including closed containers in the trunk, although special justification is needed for trunks. Diminished expectations of privacy are assumed to exist with moving vehicles. Probable cause can be easily established via police dogs, who have a sense of smell six million times greater than that of a human.

 

[PerRock]

I am sorry, but that lawyer is clearly wrong. Refusing a search and being detrained is one thing, having your bags rummaged through without your permission as had happened to OP is clearly another.

SEARCH AND SEIZURE: A GUIDE TO RULES, REQUIREMENTS, TESTS, DOCTRINES, AND EXCEPTIONS:

Moving Vehicle/Probable Cause Doctrine--an automobile, truck, van, motorhome, boat, airplane or other movable object can be searched IF there is (a) probable cause (b) the vehicle is moving or about to be moved, and © a warrant cannot be readily obtained. Every part of the vehicle can be searched, including closed containers in the trunk, although special justification is needed for trunks. Diminished expectations of privacy are assumed to exist with moving vehicles. Probable cause can be easily established via police dogs, who have a sense of smell six million times greater than that of a human.

Where is this quote from? Is it a state's law, Amtrak policy, something you just made up?

peter

 

[Border Line Case]

I was once questioned by some DC cops in Washington Union Station while they were changing engines for the trip into Virginia. The identified themselves and showed their badges and asked me if the bag in the overhead rack was mine. When I answered, they left me alone.

As far as the "internal checkpoints," I was once stopped on on while driving I-91 in Vermont, where they had a temporary one that caused a hell of a backup. The agent just asked me my nationality and when I said US, he waved me on. The whole thing seemed stupid, if I were escorting people who were in the country illegally, I would have just gotten off the Interstate at a previous exit and bypassed the circus using the numerous local roads in the area. They also have them down in Texas near the border, again, for the most part, they just wave me through after I speak to them in English with an American accent. I don't know if they hassle the local Mexican-Americans, though (in the areas near the border ~70% of the population is Mexican Americans who have been Americans since Texas became a state). But then, at least half the Border Patrol and ICE agents down there are Mexican American. As for people in cars with Mexican tags, I don't even want to know, though I guess these people have just passed though the Port of Entry, so they must have their paperwork at hand.

I should say that *usually* they wave me through, occasionally, they have asked me what I consider impertinent questions that have nothing to do with whether I have a legal right to be in the country. My guess is that they're suspicious of drug smuggling. Of course, I am totally polite to their impertinence and answer their questions truthfully and briefly, telling them no more than what is necessary to answer the question. I suspect if they think you have an "attitude" they'll give you a problem. While I think that most LE are professionals, I also think they are given too much power and their management has not set up any systematic controls on their behavior (like having internal affairs agents pass through checkpoints behaving "suspiciously" to see how the agents react.)

 

[leemell]

I am sorry, but that lawyer is clearly wrong. Refusing a search and being detrained is one thing, having your bags rummaged through without your permission as had happened to OP is clearly another.

SEARCH AND SEIZURE: A GUIDE TO RULES, REQUIREMENTS, TESTS, DOCTRINES, AND EXCEPTIONS:

Moving Vehicle/Probable Cause Doctrine--an automobile, truck, van, motorhome, boat, airplane or other movable object can be searched IF there is (a) probable cause (b) the vehicle is moving or about to be moved, and © a warrant cannot be readily obtained. Every part of the vehicle can be searched, including closed containers in the trunk, although special justification is needed for trunks. Diminished expectations of privacy are assumed to exist with moving vehicles. Probable cause can be easily established via police dogs, who have a sense of smell six million times greater than that of a human.

Where is this quote from? Is it a state's law, Amtrak policy, something you just made up?

peter

Ferdico, J. (2009). Criminal procedure for the criminal justice professional

 

[GoldenSpike]

Of course, one of the draws of train travel is that it is more relaxed/laid back compared to the airports. Sadly, I no longer believe this to be the case.

A few examples:

a) Every time I travel through upstate New York, the Border Patrol storm troopers flood the train asking for papers late at night. 10 pm might not be considered late at night normally, but on a train when the lights are off, this is downright frightening and intimidating. In one instance, the officers didn't even identify themselves as LEO's, they merely started interrogating people in the dark. Did they have reasonable suspicion to question these people? And if they didn't, what they were doing considering the circumstances was certainly not consensual. From what I understand, this goes on in other places.

b) The DEA frequently storms the train in places like ABQ, pulling down bags, bringing in the scary dogs, etc. Again, they never identify themselves and they are not uniformed. For all I know, the train is being taken over by train pirates.

c) The TSA is starting to show up in train stations in NYC and DC to conduct drills and search bags.

This is not a necessarily a criticism of Amtrak, and they no doubt do not have control over what law enforcement does. I just wonder though if there is a less intrusive way to ferret out drugs/illegals/contraband without disturbing the laid back allure of train travel.

Amtrak turning into a KGB Express?

In '96 I flew into Moscow on a day Chechen terrorists blew up a few city buses in the downtown area; stayed there for four days getting around on their subways before traveling 7 days to Vladivostok on the Trans-Siberian Express; walked up and down the piers taking pictures of their warships; and flew back to Seattle from there on Alaska Airlines.

In all that time I was never stopped to check my status, subjected to questions, unannouced searches, etc. Only once did they ask to look at my luggage - pre-boarding security for my flight. Xraying my carry-on they saw a bike chain lock and politely asked me to open it so they could verify what it is.

 

[GoldenSpike]

In all of my Amtrak journeys... I haven't seen Amtrak Police, TSA, DEA, etc. do anything that I would consider out of line.

Same here.

Passing through Havre MT on the EB many times, the Border Patrol has been very visible but low-key. Only a few times did

I see them make a sweep of the train.

Same on the CZ at the smoke-stop in Grand Junction CO. Well-armed and wearing Dept. of Homeland Security t-shirts,

about eight agents and two bomb dogs were there for our arrival. Talking to one of them, he said they are based out of Texas

and travel around the adjoing states to make random sweeps.

Same in DC. As a sleeper pax pre-boarding, we were let out of the lounge into a outside fenced area where a dog and officers

were waiting wth a long table set up.

Nothing was said as we stood around for several minuties. Obviously they just wanted to see if the dog got an alert and then we

were allowed to board.

 

[GoldenSpike]

What I don't understand about the ICE (or whatever the Border Patrol is now called) searches is this: I never carry proof of my citizenship. Who does? A regular driver's license certainly is no such proof. How can the officer determine my citizenship? My reading material? My taste in music? My dress? My accent? My skin color?

Actually since most states require that you at least prove that you are legally living in the US before you can obtain a driver's license, showing that does help to prove that you are in the country legally. It doesn't prove citizenship, unless you happen to have an Enhanced Drivers License (like I do), but again it does help to prove that you are in the US legally.

Beyond that, it's largely up to the officer to evaluate your reactions as you answer the question and they are trained to watch for the typical facial warning signs that one is lying. If they don't like what they see, then they take steps to figure out for sure if you are indeed here legally. Those steps can include many things, but can be as extreme as removing you from the train and detaining you until such time as they can verify that you are indeed in the country legally.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

In all the amtrak trains I been on I have yet to be searched or questioned. I have yet to be woken up in the middle of the night by a person with a AK-47 in my face wanting to play a game of 20 questions.I have witnessed on the SWC in may of 08 a guy being questioned and luggage looked through on the train. He was Arab looking.I have seen what looked like a boarder guy just do a walk through on the LSL on the way up to the Boston gathering but not on the way back. I was however asked on greyhound back in 07 coming back from Arizona. I think it was in ABQ. The guy had a badge attached to his pant leg. Just asked a few questions and that was it. No guns drawn or luggage searched he talked to everyone on the bus. We did however have to empty our pockets and show the waste of our pants before re-boarding greyhound after the service stop to make sure we didn't have any weapons hidden.However I think I will carry a copy of my birth certificate with me from now on just in case my luck runs out and I get woken up by Yosemite Sam and his cosines.

 

[jis]

However I think I will carry a copy of my birth certificate with me from now on just in case my luck runs out and I get woken up by Yosemite Sam and his cosines.

I don't think you really need to worry at all. Your skin and hair color and your manner of speaking English makes you relatively safe from being harassed in the current context. I consider even myself, who is brown skinned and black haired to be relatively safe from being unduly harassed because of my demeanor and the way I speak.

However, I as a matter of habit, ever since I left my country of birth for the first foreign trip, always carry my proof of citizenship with me. But that odd habit predates any of this hoo-haa, and it is just my craziness. That habit proved to be quite useful a couple of times, once in Paris in the north inner suburb of Porte de Clignancourt, a heavily immigrant population area, where the French police asked for my "papers". The other time was in Finland near the Russian border, and the last time was in Moscow at Kiyevskii Voxall (Kiyevski Station). The last one was after some terrorist attack in Russia when they were asking for Ids of everyone entering the train station just as an immediate reaction to the incident. Incidentally taking photos of things was never a matter that excited anyone in Russia. All three were involving railfanning. Heck I have had to show my papers more often traveling in restricted northern frontier areas of India than anywhere else so far.

People who talk about "KGB Express" in the US I suspect have not traveled too far and wide in the world, let alone in Federation of Russia or the Soviet Union.

 

[Choo Choo]

I am sorry, but that lawyer is clearly wrong. Refusing a search and being detrained is one thing, having your bags rummaged through without your permission as had happened to OP is clearly another.

SEARCH AND SEIZURE: A GUIDE TO RULES, REQUIREMENTS, TESTS, DOCTRINES, AND EXCEPTIONS:

Moving Vehicle/Probable Cause Doctrine--an automobile, truck, van, motorhome, boat, airplane or other movable object can be searched IF there is (a) probable cause (b) the vehicle is moving or about to be moved, and © a warrant cannot be readily obtained. Every part of the vehicle can be searched, including closed containers in the trunk, although special justification is needed for trunks. Diminished expectations of privacy are assumed to exist with moving vehicles. Probable cause can be easily established via police dogs, who have a sense of smell six million times greater than that of a human.

Where is this quote from? Is it a state's law, Amtrak policy, something you just made up?

peter

Ferdico, J. (2009). Criminal procedure for the criminal justice professional

Exactly. Your quote proves exactly what I was trying to point out. The guy that had his luggage rummaged through in bedroom H, where was the probable cause? Even in a moving vehicle, you still need probable cause. Did a dog tip the officer to the bag? If so, the search would have been proper.

 

[Ryan]

Dogs aren't the only way that probably cause can be established.

 

[Guest]

Sounds like its a good thing I still have my Geneva Convention card form my days in the Army. I also remember having to show my ID just to eat in my normal mess hall.

 

[Chris J.]

But of course.. what were they looking for? Would you rather have a flashlight shined in your eye or the train blow up when it gets to WAS. I know thats most likely not what they were looking for but either way... the CL does go through some big cities, anything is possible.

You have no idea how disappointing it was to read that. That has to be just about the most un-American thing I've read on here. Giving up actual liberty for some imaginary security is not how this country was started, but apparently is how it's going to end.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

 

[Choo Choo]

"Dogs aren't the only way that probably cause can be established."

And what perchance could that be? I believe the law abiding guy said he was traveling with his family, and was directed by the SCA to put his baggage (which was clearly labeled, by the way) in the H room. Unless a dog went crazy or some other type of sensor was set off, I really see no basis for probable cause to assume that this guy was engaged in some sort of crime. At the very least, they could have easily tracked this guy down and asked for his consent, as I am sure he would have complied.

 

[Choo Choo]

With all due respect, I believe it is your understanding of the 4th amendment that may be flawed. As I understand it, the vehicle/train/moving conveyance exception to the 4th amendment that you cited above, enables an officer to search without a warrant, but they still need probable cause. From what we were told, that was clearly lacking in this case.

 

[Ryan]

With all due respect, I believe it is your understanding of the 4th amendment that may be flawed. As I understand it, the vehicle/train/moving conveyance exception to the 4th amendment that you cited above, enables an officer to search without a warrant, but they still need probable cause.

I never claimed otherwise.

From what we were told, that was clearly lacking in this case.

Every story has two sides, we're only getting half the picture here. It'd be the height of foolishness to speculate on why the officer conducted the search without their side of the story.

 

[GoldenSpike]

....My problem with security hysteria ("they"are going to take us over!)is best illustrated by the so called Arizona Immigration law, the idiotic Governor and her political stooges have been claiming that they would not be doing profileing, that you could tell "illegals" by their shoes, how they dressed etc.

Though you confirm you are woefully clueless of the problems in AZ, please cite your sources if you're going to make a silly comment about how they intend to profile.

 

[Ryan]

Rather than sling insults, spend 5 seconds with the search engine of your choice and see what Rep. Bilbray has to say about how he thinks that they should profile.

 

[mercedeslove]

Rather than sling insults, spend 5 seconds with the search engine of your choice and see what Rep. Bilbray has to say about how he thinks that they should profile.

His theory about clothing is right. Maybe it's because I am female, but I can tell if someone is not from here by their clothes. Simply by the brands. It's very common with those from Europe. They have brands I have never seen before. Like I said this might be because I am a girl, but yeah its easy to identify someone by their clothes/style.

Also I 100% support the AZ law and hope that more states follow soon.

 

[Ryan]

His theory on clothes is ridiculous bunk, we're not worried about anyone coming over here illegally from Europe, and being "not from here" is meaningless in determining legal status. The AZ law is wildly unconstitutional and is going to get utterly destroyed in court.

 

[CNW]

Not too long ago the CBS nightly news did a story on the number of countries all over the world who make no apologies for "profiling". Didn't even consider it to be a bad thing at all. Interesting!

 

[dlagrua]

Not too long ago the CBS nightly news did a story on the number of countries all over the world who make no apologies for "profiling". Didn't even consider it to be a bad thing at all. Interesting!

We need to wake up and use common sense. For instance do we see Italian Americans, Jews and Blacks planning or committing acts of terrror on our nations transportation system or is it perhaps another group? If you disagree with this statement give me examples of where I am wrong. Nothing wrong with targeting a group whos religious book justifies and promotes violence in the name of their faith. These people do not conduct themselves according to the Judeochristian ethic.

 

[Trogdor]

dlagrua, you are obviously ignorant about certain faiths.

As for racial profiling, please research:

Unabomber

Oklahoma City Bomber

Centennial Park (Atlanta 1996 Olympics) bomber

Army of God

Hutaree

That's just what I could think of in a minute or so.

 

[Donctor]

Not too long ago the CBS nightly news did a story on the number of countries all over the world who make no apologies for "profiling". Didn't even consider it to be a bad thing at all. Interesting!

We need to wake up and use common sense. For instance do we see Italian Americans, Jews and Blacks planning or committing acts of terrror on our nations transportation system or is it perhaps another group? If you disagree with this statement give me examples of where I am wrong. Nothing wrong with targeting a group whos religious book justifies and promotes violence in the name of their faith. These people do not conduct themselves according to the Judeochristian ethic.

I don't conduct myself according to Judeo-Christian ethics. Last time I checked, that didn't make me a terrorist.

You consider it to be "common sense." Many others would classify it as ignorance and discrimination.

Edit: I had more to say.

 

[MrFSS]

I don't conduct myself according to Judeo-Christian ethics. Last time I checked, that didn't make me a terrorist.

What ethical system do you conduct yourself with, then?