Amtrak Don't Turn Into the ****/KGB Express

[Choo Choo]

Of course, one of the draws of train travel is that it is more relaxed/laid back compared to the airports. Sadly, I no longer believe this to be the case.

A few examples:

a) Every time I travel through upstate New York, the Border Patrol storm troopers flood the train asking for papers late at night. 10 pm might not be considered late at night normally, but on a train when the lights are off, this is downright frightening and intimidating. In one instance, the officers didn't even identify themselves as LEO's, they merely started interrogating people in the dark. Did they have reasonable suspicion to question these people? And if they didn't, what they were doing considering the circumstances was certainly not consensual. From what I understand, this goes on in other places.

b) The DEA frequently storms the train in places like ABQ, pulling down bags, bringing in the scary dogs, etc. Again, they never identify themselves and they are not uniformed. For all I know, the train is being taken over by train pirates.

c) The TSA is starting to show up in train stations in NYC and DC to conduct drills and search bags.

This is not a necessarily a criticism of Amtrak, and they no doubt do not have control over what law enforcement does. I just wonder though if there is a less intrusive way to ferret out drugs/illegals/contraband without disturbing the laid back allure of train travel.

 

[haolerider]

Of course, one of the draws of train travel is that it is more relaxed/laid back compared to the airports. Sadly, I no longer believe this to be the case.

A few examples:

a) Every time I travel through upstate New York, the Border Patrol storm troopers flood the train asking for papers late at night. 10 pm might not be considered late at night normally, but on a train when the lights are off, this is downright frightening and intimidating. In one instance, the officers didn't even identify themselves as LEO's, they merely started interrogating people in the dark. Did they have reasonable suspicion to question these people? And if they didn't, what they were doing considering the circumstances was certainly not consensual. From what I understand, this goes on in other places.

b) The DEA frequently storms the train in places like ABQ, pulling down bags, bringing in the scary dogs, etc. Again, they never identify themselves and they are not uniformed. For all I know, the train is being taken over by train pirates.

c) The TSA is starting to show up in train stations in NYC and DC to conduct drills and search bags.

This is not a necessarily a criticism of Amtrak, and they no doubt do not have control over what law enforcement does. I just wonder though if there is a less intrusive way to ferret out drugs/illegals/contraband without disturbing the laid back allure of train travel.

I think you are being a little bit unrealistic in your comments. Border Patrol employees are on trains for a specific reason and that is to be sure passengers are documented properly and if not, taken off the train before they reach the borders - or escape undetected. DEA are trying to stem the flow of illegal drugs into the country and I have no problem with them. The transporters of drugs do not identify themselves and I again have no problem with DEA searching the trains. Trains, by their very nature, are easier to use for illegal drug transportation than planes. TSA is a bit of a different story, but so far their intrusions into train travel have been small and really non-intrusive. I also don't object to armed security people with trained dogs - or with random searches. This is a different world we are living in these days.

 

[Choo Choo]

Before they reach what border? The LSL doesn't cross any border. People should know that their nice relaxing rail journey might include an in the dark/in the middle of the dark immigration interrogation interview.

Screening for drugs is one thing. Moving through a train, not identifying yourself as a LEO, and screaming at people by "asking" loudly to look through bags is another.

At last when you fly, this stuff is contained to the airport.

 

[haolerider]

Before they reach what border? The LSL doesn't cross any border. People should know that their nice relaxing rail journey might include an in the dark/in the middle of the dark immigration interrogation interview.

Screening for drugs is one thing. Moving through a train, not identifying yourself as a LEO, and screaming at people by "asking" loudly to look through bags is another.

At last when you fly, this stuff is contained to the airport.

The Border Patrol is allowed to inspect within a certain number of miles of the border. The northern region of NY is one of those areas that is within that limitation. If one is traveling undocumented and this is the way the BP finds them, that is OK with me. Do I want to be awakened in the middle of the night? No, but if it catches one of the illegals, I am also OK with that. Imagine if the BP announced when they would be doing the inspections. Do you think anyone looking to avoid them would not be there at the announced times? This is the advantage of random checks.

 

[Choo Choo]

Yes, but what if you are on American citizen who looks foreign or has a foreign accent? As an American citizen, do you carry your passport with you when you are merely crossing state lines. As a citizen, are you required to answer their questions or even talk to them when they lack reasonable suspicion? Probably not, but you wouldn't think so when you are awakened, it is dark, someone with a gun is screaming at you, and beaming a flash light in your face in a strange town in upstate New York. Again, can't they work out another way to be less intrusive. Why not patrol the stations, question people prior to boarding?

 

[rtabern]

In all of my Amtrak journeys... I haven't seen Amtrak Police, TSA, DEA, etc. do anything that I would consider out of line. The most I have seen them do is have drug/bomb dogs sniff passengers bags while they were waiting in line to board their train in Chicago -- very professionally done and very un-intrusive. I have seen Border Patrol agents do a sweep of the train at Del Rio, San Antonio, and El Paso while on the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited -- again, very unintrusive... they just ran up and down the aisle of the train. They didnt even make me open the door of my sleeping car room or anything like that. Amtrak tells you over and over that you need to have a form of ID -- so if the border patrol or whoever wants to check it -- go right ahead!! If you're legal... you shouldn't have a problem... and the questioning shouldn't take all that long.

If you think train security is bad -- then don't even try and drive across the border!! That is where you will get questioned. Last October I had 3 days off work and decided to do an impromteu camping/road trip to Canada and northern Minnesota. The border patrol lady wasn't happy that I was going in to Canada without any specific campground/hotel reservations... she went through my car with a fine tooth comb and I got intense questioning, etc... even though I had an ID card and other papers on me (including passport) that showed I worked for a police department! Talk about intrusive!!

 

[MattW]

I have a better idea, surround our borders with a 100ft tall 20ft thick fence and leave innocent U.S. citizens alone! If they would just do their jobs AT the border, then they wouldn't have to intrude farther inland. Am I saying it's the individual officer's fault? no, but are they any less responsible? NO! "Following orders" is NOT a good enough excuse, if the individuals won't rally against their superiors, then they are supporting their superiors' actions.

 

[Choo Choo]

Amtrak merely requires you to be in possession of a government issued ID. That is very different from an ID that is acceptable for immigration purposes.

 

[rtabern]

Amtrak merely requires you to be in possession of a government issued ID. That is very different from an ID that is acceptable for immigration purposes.

Did they hassle you for not having a passport or birth certificate, etc. with you?? If so, I agree that would be out of line -- as long as you are a US citizen and your original and final destinations are within the US -- you don't need anything more than a driver license or a state ID card. Everytime I have seen the border patrol, Amtrak Police, etc. on the train -- they haven't even asked for my ID, let alone a passport or immigration papers or whatever.

On a trip I took 3 years ago, some DEA folks stormed my car on the California Zephyr (while it was still sitting in Union Station) and went to the roomette next to mine and hauled the guy in there off the train. The sleeping car attendant told me they found 2 guns in his carry-on luggage. Hey, I'm glad they pulled him off the train -- or else I would have been traveling next to a guy for 2 days who had a loaded gun in his roomette!! I am sure nothing would have happened, but who knows???

 

[Guest]

Nothing wrong with professional/polite officers doing their jobs, but unfortunately some of these folks have a storm trooper attitude and ARE rude and loud! The point about checking people before they get on the train will lead to airport type security theater, none of us want that! Rob had a good point about crossing borders! (Mexico is even worse Rob!)

I have seen lots of people taken off of planes/trains and busses @ borders and airports,mostly for having no papers or for being on some "list"!My problem with security hysteria ("they"are going to take us over!)is best illustrated by the so called Arizona Immigration law, the idiotic Governor and her political stooges have been claiming that they would not be doing profileing, that you could tell "illegals" by their shoes, how they dressed etc. Glad Im not a person of color or dont have a "foriegn accent" ,

(whatever that is??)Ive never been overly harrased by federal law enforcement but have seen people who have! Thugs that pose as law enforcement should be fired, maybe even put in their beloved jails with the other criminals!

This is not an easy question, we do face external threats but most people riding trains @ the worst might be smuggling drugs, the dogs will find that, ive seen several people arrested on trains or trying to get on right in Dallas in broaddaylight! I agree, no TSA occupation of train stations, dogs and polite/proffesional officers checking trains are OK! It wouldnt hurt if OBS announced what was going on when they stop/board the trains either!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This is a different world we are living in these days.

Yeah, the world of 24-hour junk news trying to convince us we need to be more fearful of everyone we don't know while also being more trusting of every business that's trying to sell us sweatshop goods in between the horror stories. If only we could somehow combine the anti-stranger mob justice of the cowboy era with today's blind consumerism. Then we'd all be safe and happy again. </sarcasm>

Most Americans who travel seem to hate the TSA and would probably hate these nighttime raids as well if they rode trains. What they need to do is visit with their congressperson and their senators. It's not easy but it can be done. Call up the scheduling clerk and have them get you a time when you and your family, friends, and coworkers can show up and express your outrage over your treatment by domestic and boarder security services. Writing a letter or calling is fine but seeing them in person makes more of an impact.

 

[Choo Choo]

Yeah, why all the theatre? Why not let the dogs do walk a through, sniff the luggage, and if they get a hit, do a search? Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner? So, what if a few drugs slip through. Do you have to ruin the trip and the relaxed atmosphere for law abiding citizens?

 

[AlanB]

The Border Patrol is allowed to inspect within a certain number of miles of the border.

The Border Patrol can stop any train, car, bus, boat within 100 miles of a US border and board it for an inspection. And since both the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean constitute borders under the law, that means that most trains Amtrak runs can be stopped for an inspection if they so desire.

It does seem to happen more on runs like the EB, LSL, Sunset, and the Surfliners than other routes; but I have seen them stop a Silver train too.

 

[AlanB]

Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner?

There is nothing unconstitutional about random searches of luggage and/or bags. When NYC enacted random searches at its subway stations, several groups fought back against it in court on that ground and lost.

 

[Choo Choo]

The Border Patrol is allowed to inspect within a certain number of miles of the border.

The Border Patrol can stop any train, car, bus, boat within 100 miles of a US border and board it for an inspection. And since both the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean constitute borders under the law, that means that most trains Amtrak runs can be stopped for an inspection if they so desire.

It does seem to happen more on runs like the EB, LSL, Sunset, and the Surfliners than other routes; but I have seen them stop a Silver train too.

I ran into a Border Patrol officer on the Silver Service, as well. He was questioning people OUTSIDE the train at one of the stations. I have absolutely no problem with this. Perfect example of a less intrusive, reasonable security procedure. It was in broad daylight, was not intimidating, and it was clear that he was a law enforcement officer. I do have a problem with officers storming the train late at night, in the dark, with a bullying demeanor in the middle of nowhere. This turns a legally consensual encounter into a harrowing, unpleasant one.

 

[Choo Choo]

Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner?

There is nothing unconstitutional about random searches of luggage and/or bags. When NYC enacted random searches at its subway stations, several groups fought back against it in court on that ground and lost.

Yeah, because in NYC you have the option of refusing the search and leaving the station. Good luck doing that while on the train in the middle of the summer desert. Again, I have no problem if they did this before boarding while at the station. Once on the train, they should leave you alone!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner?

There is nothing unconstitutional about random searches of luggage and/or bags. When NYC enacted random searches at its subway stations, several groups fought back against it in court on that ground and lost.

Granting that being woken up in the middle of the bloody night by a guy with a flashlight is pretty damned unreasonable, I object on the following grounds:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If some Judge upheld the border patrols search procedures on Amtrak in particular, I would petition for the man's impeachment.

 

[Choo Choo]

And since we are speaking of the NYC subway, last time I checked NYC was well within 100 miles of the border. Why don't they go bother the people riding the E train in Queens? Those trains are probably packed full of illegal aliens. If I am on vacation (which I usually am while I ride Amtrak) don't poke me in the middle of night, beam a flashnight in my face, and start asking me questions.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Before they reach what border? The LSL doesn't cross any border. People should know that their nice relaxing rail journey might include an in the dark/in the middle of the dark immigration interrogation interview.

Screening for drugs is one thing. Moving through a train, not identifying yourself as a LEO, and screaming at people by "asking" loudly to look through bags is another.

At last when you fly, this stuff is contained to the airport.

The Border Patrol is allowed to inspect within a certain number of miles of the border. The northern region of NY is one of those areas that is within that limitation. If one is traveling undocumented and this is the way the BP finds them, that is OK with me. Do I want to be awakened in the middle of the night? No, but if it catches one of the illegals, I am also OK with that. Imagine if the BP announced when they would be doing the inspections. Do you think anyone looking to avoid them would not be there at the announced times? This is the advantage of random checks.

I have been on 2 empire service trains where Border Patrol has come on board both times there was announcement made and they simply asked everyone their citizenship. I wouldn't call that in an interrogation though.

 

[leemell]

Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner?

There is nothing unconstitutional about random searches of luggage and/or bags. When NYC enacted random searches at its subway stations, several groups fought back against it in court on that ground and lost.

Granting that being woken up in the middle of the bloody night by a guy with a flashlight is pretty damned unreasonable, I object on the following grounds:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If some Judge upheld the border patrols search procedures on Amtrak in particular, I would petition for the man's impeachment.

Federal immigration law says:

"Laws Governing The United States Border Patrol

These are the pertinent laws governing the actions and duties of the United States Border Patrol:

8 CFR PART 287 -- FIELD OFFICERS– POWERS AND DUTIES:

"The Government is authorized to question individuals to determine whether they have a legitimate right to enter or remain in the U.S. This is called the inspection process. However, this process is not just limited to the physical border. There is a provision in the immigration law that treats a distance of up to 100 miles from an international border as its “functional equivalent.” This allows Border Patrol and other immigration officials to enter and search vessels, buses, trains, and vehicles traveling inside the U.S. to determine whether those aboard are legally in the country. These searches extend to train and bus stations, and even airports which have no international flights."

Doesn't when, just where.

 

[Choo Choo]

Technically, that is not a federal law, it is an executive federal regulation. Regardless, the US Constitution trumps both laws and regulations. While these officers certainly have the right to ask these questions, Americans also have a constitutional right not to answer them. You wouldn't think this is the case though when some bully is standing over you in the middle of the night, with a loaded firearm, yelling at you, all the while beaming a flashlight in your face.

 

[jis]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If some Judge upheld the border patrols search procedures on Amtrak in particular, I would petition for the man's impeachment.

Given today's general mood at the SCOTUS, you might be having fun trying to impeach the Supreme Court

 

[leemell]

Technically, that is not a federal law, it is an executive federal regulation. Regardless, the US Constitution trumps both laws and regulations. While these officers certainly have the right to ask these questions, Americans also have a constitutional right not to answer them. You wouldn't think this is the case though when some bully is standing over you in the middle of the night, with a loaded firearm, yelling at you, all the while beaming a flashlight in your face.

Except:

"Nonetheless, carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline [or a passenger on a train] These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly [or ride]."

 

[Choo Choo]

Technically, that is not a federal law, it is an executive federal regulation. Regardless, the US Constitution trumps both laws and regulations. While these officers certainly have the right to ask these questions, Americans also have a constitutional right not to answer them. You wouldn't think this is the case though when some bully is standing over you in the middle of the night, with a loaded firearm, yelling at you, all the while beaming a flashlight in your face.

Except:

"Nonetheless, carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline [or a passenger on a train] These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly [or ride]."

That's not necessarily true. Passengers in a vehicle are not required to have identification. Even aircraft passengers aren't technically required to present identification. If you fail to present identification at the airport, TSA may subject you to secondary screening, but no law mandates that you present it.

 

[jis]

That's not necessarily true. Passengers in a vehicle are not required to have identification. Even aircraft passengers aren't technically required to present identification. If you fail to present identification at the airport, TSA may subject you to secondary screening, but no law mandates that you present it.

They can use that as an excuse to deny you boarding though. Same difference.