Amtrak Don't Turn Into the ****/KGB Express

[Choo Choo]

Leave me the hell alone on my vacation. Don't poke me, wake me up, shine a flashlight in my face, and expect that I am going to cooperate with you and answer your stupid questions. I get enough grief and abuse from my boss at work and I want to be left alone during the small time that I have off. Many of these public officials think they are our masters and that we work for them. We don't, I don't need to help you in meeting your drug mule quota, and I want to be left alone. The one DEA idiot I dealt with on the train took it personally when I didn't want to speak with him.

 

[lthanlon]

This thread almost makes it sound as though this is a daily occurence on all Amtrak trains. I have to assume that the middle of the night action has taken place a small number of times and is not routine. Perhaps there was a specific reason for whoever the officals were to suspect some illegal action on the train the OP was riding. If this becomes routine, then I will be very concerned, but as of now, it is a small insignificant item in my mind. "See Something - Say Something" is not an Amtrak originated statement. You see this on public transportation in Chicago for example and it is not a bad idea.

My experience with seeing something on Metra and trying to say something was not especially encouraging.

 

[Trogdor]

This thread almost makes it sound as though this is a daily occurence on all Amtrak trains. I have to assume that the middle of the night action has taken place a small number of times and is not routine. Perhaps there was a specific reason for whoever the officals were to suspect some illegal action on the train the OP was riding. If this becomes routine, then I will be very concerned, but as of now, it is a small insignificant item in my mind. "See Something - Say Something" is not an Amtrak originated statement. You see this on public transportation in Chicago for example and it is not a bad idea.

It may not happen regularly on all trains, but being stopped by Border Patrol is nearly a daily occurrence on the Lake Shore Limited.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Well if they had a tip, either it got back to the person or it didn't pan out right. In either event, it was annoying and a bit of a sham.

It was kind of funny because they boarded in ALC dressed in plain clothes-- I thought they were Mt. Union students, frat boys, they shot the sh*t with other pax waiting and had pretty good cover. So good that when we boarded I followed them. The AC had one coach opened, the C had the other one-- I thought they were boarding two lines (it was a full train) and I hung around them expecting my ticket to be pulled. As soon as they started asking for the pax manifests I figured something was up.

It took me a few hours until I realized that these guys were dumbasses. They didn't seem to notice me right behind them while they formulated plans with the C-- or at least not care.

 

[Edgefan]

Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner?

There is nothing unconstitutional about random searches of luggage and/or bags. When NYC enacted random searches at its subway stations, several groups fought back against it in court on that ground and lost.

Granting that being woken up in the middle of the bloody night by a guy with a flashlight is pretty damned unreasonable, I object on the following grounds:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If some Judge upheld the border patrols search procedures on Amtrak in particular, I would petition for the man's impeachment.

Amen

California Zephyr #6 Station Stop Reno, NV Date 5/3/10 Our bags were stowed in the unoccupied H-room. We did NOT discover that they were not only searched, they were trashed, until we were gathering them when we neared our station stop of Mt Pleasant, IA (two days later). I was furious, but the SCA acted like it was normal anymore. We did not take it out on Amtrak but upon arrival home we let the Reno law enforcement know what they did was out of line and unacceptable to us. We did get an apology. I later wrote Amtrak and posed the question of being present for future searches. No response back on that.

I am really not surprised that your bags were searched, since they were sitting in an unoccupied room. Apparently, that would make them look suspicious. Even on the train, I put those little TSA approved locks. I bought them specifically for the trip, since we had not traveled by PT since way before September 11th. Did you have them labeled with your name? I would expect that they could have had you present while they were searched if they were labeled. Do I like the idea that they can search??? NO!! But if they do, they won't find anything ilegal in my stuff, so I don't worry about it.

I really am not trying to fan the flames of this thread but some more background to answer some of your questions Sunchaser;

My wife and I boarded the California Zephyr in Sacramento on May 3rd of this year. Our destination of Mt. Pleasant does not have checked baggage. Anyone who boarded in Sacramento found the luggage racks in our sleeper packed beyond capacity. Therefore all sleeper passengers who had luggage were directed to put them in the un-occupied H-room. My wife and I waited for all passengers boarding to go first. I find life much easier to be patient. When I placed our bags in the H-room, it was VERY full. Also, we have the Amtrak paper tags, our Select luggage tags from the last few years as well as our own personal luggage tags. We are identified no less than five times per bag! We had everything we needed for the two day trip in our "room" bag, so there was no need to even think about our bags in the H-room. I have pictures of the procedings from what I saw on the platform and later from our sleeper room window when they were calling it a day. I am subject to random drug testing from my present employer. I would never risk the welfare of my family, so ingesting illegal substances are out of the question. That being said, I still want to be present if my property is searched. I have my reasons that I won't go into here. And lastly, my Iowa drivers license has all the information needed to prove my citizenship. My name and birthdate gives them all they really could need. But the kicker is the magnetic strip found on the back of my license. All they have to do is swipe it and there is more info there than even I am aware of! Peace!

 

[amtrakwolverine]

But the kicker is the magnetic strip found on the back of my license. All they have to do is swipe it and there is more info there than even I am aware of! Peace!

But do the agents walk around with with a scanner to swipe it in? I guess we all might as well carry our birth certificate with us sense technically a DL or state ID does prove citizenship. It happened to a member of this forum.A agent harassed him on the train saying his drivers license and school ID were quote "useless documents".

 

[sunchaser]

Why all the bullying, "asking" to search luggage in an unconstitutional manner?

There is nothing unconstitutional about random searches of luggage and/or bags. When NYC enacted random searches at its subway stations, several groups fought back against it in court on that ground and lost.

Granting that being woken up in the middle of the bloody night by a guy with a flashlight is pretty damned unreasonable, I object on the following grounds:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If some Judge upheld the border patrols search procedures on Amtrak in particular, I would petition for the man's impeachment.

Amen

California Zephyr #6 Station Stop Reno, NV Date 5/3/10 Our bags were stowed in the unoccupied H-room. We did NOT discover that they were not only searched, they were trashed, until we were gathering them when we neared our station stop of Mt Pleasant, IA (two days later). I was furious, but the SCA acted like it was normal anymore. We did not take it out on Amtrak but upon arrival home we let the Reno law enforcement know what they did was out of line and unacceptable to us. We did get an apology. I later wrote Amtrak and posed the question of being present for future searches. No response back on that.

I am really not surprised that your bags were searched, since they were sitting in an unoccupied room. Apparently, that would make them look suspicious. Even on the train, I put those little TSA approved locks. I bought them specifically for the trip, since we had not traveled by PT since way before September 11th. Did you have them labeled with your name? I would expect that they could have had you present while they were searched if they were labeled. Do I like the idea that they can search??? NO!! But if they do, they won't find anything illegal in my stuff, so I don't worry about it.

I really am not trying to fan the flames of this thread but some more background to answer some of your questions Sunchaser;

My wife and I boarded the California Zephyr in Sacramento on May 3rd of this year. Our destination of Mt. Pleasant does not have checked baggage. Anyone who boarded in Sacramento found the luggage racks in our sleeper packed beyond capacity. Therefore all sleeper passengers who had luggage were directed to put them in the un-occupied H-room. My wife and I waited for all passengers boarding to go first. I find life much easier to be patient. When I placed our bags in the H-room, it was VERY full. Also, we have the Amtrak paper tags, our Select luggage tags from the last few years as well as our own personal luggage tags. We are identified no less than five times per bag! We had everything we needed for the two day trip in our "room" bag, so there was no need to even think about our bags in the H-room. I have pictures of the proceedings from what I saw on the platform and later from our sleeper room window when they were calling it a day. I am subject to random drug testing from my present employer. I would never risk the welfare of my family, so ingesting illegal substances are out of the question. That being said, I still want to be present if my property is searched. I have my reasons that I won't go into here. And lastly, my Iowa drivers license has all the information needed to prove my citizenship. My name and birthdate gives them all they really could need. But the kicker is the magnetic strip found on the back of my license. All they have to do is swipe it and there is more info there than even I am aware of! Peace!

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I misread your post, & assumed yours was the only ones there. I can see how if they were alone they might be suspicious, but to go through a pile of luggage like that-I think that's kinda crazy. They must have been looking for something. I totally agree I would like to be present too if someone is checking our luggage- & too will not go into my reasons either. I was not inferring that you or your family were doing anything wrong. Last October, on the CZ #5, there was two people who got off the train at our stop in SLC & fired up their pipe & informed me they had a prescription for it, & even offered it to me as I walked by!!!

 

[Edgefan]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I misread your post, & assumed yours was the only ones there. I can see how if they were alone they might be suspicious, but to go through a pile of luggage like that-I think that's kinda crazy. They must have been looking for something. I totally agree I would like to be present too if someone is checking our luggage- & too will not go into my reasons either. I was not inferring that you or your family were doing anything wrong. Last October, on the CZ #5, there was two people who got off the train at our stop in SLC & fired up their pipe & informed me they had a prescription for it, & even offered it to me as I walked by!!!

Not a problem Sunchaser, no offense taken! I just felt a little clarification was needed. My father worked so hard to become a citizen of this country and taught his children the beauty of the documents that carved out this wonderous place of ours. We should all re-read them and embrace them.

 

[tp49]

I really am not trying to fan the flames of this thread but some more background to answer some of your questions Sunchaser;

My wife and I boarded the California Zephyr in Sacramento on May 3rd of this year. Our destination of Mt. Pleasant does not have checked baggage. Anyone who boarded in Sacramento found the luggage racks in our sleeper packed beyond capacity. Therefore all sleeper passengers who had luggage were directed to put them in the un-occupied H-room. My wife and I waited for all passengers boarding to go first. I find life much easier to be patient. When I placed our bags in the H-room, it was VERY full. Also, we have the Amtrak paper tags, our Select luggage tags from the last few years as well as our own personal luggage tags. We are identified no less than five times per bag! We had everything we needed for the two day trip in our "room" bag, so there was no need to even think about our bags in the H-room. I have pictures of the procedings from what I saw on the platform and later from our sleeper room window when they were calling it a day. I am subject to random drug testing from my present employer. I would never risk the welfare of my family, so ingesting illegal substances are out of the question. That being said, I still want to be present if my property is searched. I have my reasons that I won't go into here. And lastly, my Iowa drivers license has all the information needed to prove my citizenship. My name and birthdate gives them all they really could need. But the kicker is the magnetic strip found on the back of my license. All they have to do is swipe it and there is more info there than even I am aware of! Peace!

I can explain to you why the bags were searched. This is based on the case files I have read where people transporting narcotics were arrested in similar sweeps on Amtrak, I also have read a few files where people were caught transporting drugs on Greyhound as well. Even if the bags have tags on them with your name and address because they are not with you, meaning with your person or in your presence. Here as you presented the fact that the luggage was located in the "H" room and not in your room which to them (and they would act similarly if the bag was located in the lower level rack not just the "H" room) means the bag is unattended.

Now, I totally understand why you would want to be present if your property is searched. That said, if the agent had a manifest they should have located you, asked you if that was your luggage and asked for consent to search. Even without a manifest they still should have asked the people in the car if they had luggage down in the "H" room and if so which bags belonged to them and ask for consent to search. It makes for better public relations.

For clarification, when the sweep was conducted did the agents come to the upper level of the car and start ask questions of any of the passengers there? It was not stated in your original post and gives me more room to better analyze the actions of the agents.

 

[tp49]

But do the agents walk around with with a scanner to swipe it in? I guess we all might as well carry our birth certificate with us sense technically a DL or state ID does prove citizenship. It happened to a member of this forum.A agent harassed him on the train saying his drivers license and school ID were quote "useless documents".

That's because outside of the enhanced driver's license, a state issued driver's license is not sufficient to prove that someone who is not already a citizen is in the United States legally (the expired visa problem). A university ID is a completely useless document to prove legal presence in the United States.

Now to make this crystal clear, if a person is a non-citizen (in the US on a visa or have a green card) you are required to carry proof of legal presence in the United States on your person at all times (your visa or green card). Some people carry photocopies of their visas which can be acceptable as well. Once that person is a United States citizen they are no longer required to carry proof of legal presence.

 

[Edgefan]

I really am not trying to fan the flames of this thread but some more background to answer some of your questions Sunchaser;

My wife and I boarded the California Zephyr in Sacramento on May 3rd of this year. Our destination of Mt. Pleasant does not have checked baggage. Anyone who boarded in Sacramento found the luggage racks in our sleeper packed beyond capacity. Therefore all sleeper passengers who had luggage were directed to put them in the un-occupied H-room. My wife and I waited for all passengers boarding to go first. I find life much easier to be patient. When I placed our bags in the H-room, it was VERY full. Also, we have the Amtrak paper tags, our Select luggage tags from the last few years as well as our own personal luggage tags. We are identified no less than five times per bag! We had everything we needed for the two day trip in our "room" bag, so there was no need to even think about our bags in the H-room. I have pictures of the procedings from what I saw on the platform and later from our sleeper room window when they were calling it a day. I am subject to random drug testing from my present employer. I would never risk the welfare of my family, so ingesting illegal substances are out of the question. That being said, I still want to be present if my property is searched. I have my reasons that I won't go into here. And lastly, my Iowa drivers license has all the information needed to prove my citizenship. My name and birthdate gives them all they really could need. But the kicker is the magnetic strip found on the back of my license. All they have to do is swipe it and there is more info there than even I am aware of! Peace!

I can explain to you why the bags were searched. This is based on the case files I have read where people transporting narcotics were arrested in similar sweeps on Amtrak, I also have read a few files where people were caught transporting drugs on Greyhound as well. Even if the bags have tags on them with your name and address because they are not with you, meaning with your person or in your presence. Here as you presented the fact that the luggage was located in the "H" room and not in your room which to them (and they would act similarly if the bag was located in the lower level rack not just the "H" room) means the bag is unattended.

Now, I totally understand why you would want to be present if your property is searched. That said, if the agent had a manifest they should have located you, asked you if that was your luggage and asked for consent to search. Even without a manifest they still should have asked the people in the car if they had luggage down in the "H" room and if so which bags belonged to them and ask for consent to search. It makes for better public relations.

For clarification, when the sweep was conducted did the agents come to the upper level of the car and start ask questions of any of the passengers there? It was not stated in your original post and gives me more room to better analyze the actions of the agents.

Permission was not asked of anyone in our vicinity. My wife and I were in Bedroom D car 631. We walked to the head end of the train to snap a couple pictures of the power as well as the goings on on the platform once we realized the amount of police presence. We counted no less than 6 uniformed, one dog, (german shepard) and several plainclothes officers. Not sure how many plainclothes were actually part of the operation as there were many passengers on the platform as well. Once back inside the train, I was passed by a uniformed officer. I greeted him, he seemed pre-occupied and didn't speak.

 

[jis]

Now to make this crystal clear, if a person is a non-citizen (in the US on a visa or have a green card) you are required to carry proof of legal presence in the United States on your person at all times (your visa or green card). Some people carry photocopies of their visas which can be acceptable as well. Once that person is a United States citizen they are no longer required to carry proof of legal presence.

A Visa is a document that is used to cross the border. Technically, it by itself does not prove legality or lack thereof, of presence in the US. What you need is an I-94 or equivalent or a stamp in the passport showing when your current status in the US expires. It is possible for your Visa to expire and yet your Status to be legal in the US.

In my student days this used to happen all the time, since often the US Consulate in India would issue a one year visa, but at the US point of entry (typically JFK in my case)the border agent would look at the I-20 which lists the length of the study program, and then issue a what was then called "Duration of Status" I-94 with an expiry date 4 years out, since that was the program length specified in the I-20. So once you have that, unless you need to leave the US and re-enter, you did not need to get a new Visa stamped and could just use the I-94 to establish your legality in the US.

 

[Choo Choo]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

 

[dlagrua]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

The next step is when we will be required to say "Zeig Heil" when the stormtroopers come aboard to search us and I tell you that if it keeps going like this we are on our way to complete tyranny. Ben Franklin once said "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". We are on our way to a police state folks.

 

[leemell]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

The next step is when we will be required to say "Zeig Heil" when the stormtroopers come aboard to search us and I tell you that if it keeps going like this we are on our way to complete tyranny. Ben Franklin once said "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". We are on our way to a police state folks.

That's "Sieg heil". ;-)

 

[tp49]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

As I said before in this thread you seriously need to read 4th Amendment jurisprudence because you couldn't be further from reality with statements like this.

 

[Ryan]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

As I said before in this thread you seriously need to read 4th Amendment jurisprudence because you couldn't be further from reality with statements like this.

I agree completely, but humbly suggest that you follow the advice in your signature. It's much easier to cling to what folks imagine is in the Constitution than it is to learn about what it actually means and how its applied.

 

[Choo Choo]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

As I said before in this thread you seriously need to read 4th Amendment jurisprudence because you couldn't be further from reality with statements like this.

I agree completely, but humbly suggest that you follow the advice in your signature. It's much easier to cling to what folks imagine is in the Constitution than it is to learn about what it actually means and how its applied.

Don't take my word for it. Get a lawyer and ask the courts whether it is okay for someone to rummage through your belongings without your consent or probable cause. My guess is that it probably isn't, but law abiding citizens never challenge it, so the nonsense just goes on.

 

[AlanB]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

As I said before in this thread you seriously need to read 4th Amendment jurisprudence because you couldn't be further from reality with statements like this.

I agree completely, but humbly suggest that you follow the advice in your signature. It's much easier to cling to what folks imagine is in the Constitution than it is to learn about what it actually means and how its applied.

Don't take my word for it. Get a lawyer and ask the courts whether it is okay for someone to rummage through your belongings without your consent or probable cause. My guess is that it probably isn't, but law abiding citizens never challenge it, so the nonsense just goes on.

You just got advice from a lawyer; and I'd say it's a very safe bet that tp49 wouldn't take your case.

 

[Choo Choo]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

As I said before in this thread you seriously need to read 4th Amendment jurisprudence because you couldn't be further from reality with statements like this.

I agree completely, but humbly suggest that you follow the advice in your signature. It's much easier to cling to what folks imagine is in the Constitution than it is to learn about what it actually means and how its applied.

Don't take my word for it. Get a lawyer and ask the courts whether it is okay for someone to rummage through your belongings without your consent or probable cause. My guess is that it probably isn't, but law abiding citizens never challenge it, so the nonsense just goes on.

You just got advice from a lawyer; and I'd say it's a very safe bet that tp49 wouldn't take your case.

Wrong. If they want to search your bag, they need to ask you first. If you refuse, they can deny you boarding, but they still have to ask. Give me a break, people. You don't have to go to law school to know this stuff. Pretty basic. If I came back to my sleeper and my bag was torn apart and there was no warrant, no consent, no excited dog, and the bags were properly labeled with my identfication, there would be a lawsuit filed in the nearest federal district court.

 

[AlanB]

That's amazing. Without a warrant or probable cause, they should not be tearing your luggage apart. So much for the 4th amendment. I am sure they will claim that the dog smelled something, or that the bag was unattended, which it clearly wasn't - if they actually spoke to the SCA, they would realize this. The Constitution is all a technicality to them. If they get a hit, the agents meet their quota and Amtrak gets a retrieval bonus. It's the law-abiding, fare paying passengers that have to pay the price for these privacy invasions. I wonder if the Border Patrol agents also get a bonus in the upstate NY sector. Dumster diving for immigrants on the LSL surely must boost their numbers. Much easier than trolling through the deserts of Arizona where thousands of illegals stream in every year.

As I said before in this thread you seriously need to read 4th Amendment jurisprudence because you couldn't be further from reality with statements like this.

I agree completely, but humbly suggest that you follow the advice in your signature. It's much easier to cling to what folks imagine is in the Constitution than it is to learn about what it actually means and how its applied.

Don't take my word for it. Get a lawyer and ask the courts whether it is okay for someone to rummage through your belongings without your consent or probable cause. My guess is that it probably isn't, but law abiding citizens never challenge it, so the nonsense just goes on.

You just got advice from a lawyer; and I'd say it's a very safe bet that tp49 wouldn't take your case.

Wrong. If they want to search your bag, they need to ask you first. If you refuse, they can deny you boarding, but they still have to ask. Give me a break, people. You don't have to go to law school to know this stuff. Pretty basic. If I came back to my sleeper and my bag was torn apart and there was no warrant, no consent, no excited dog, and the bags were properly labeled with my identfication, there would be a lawsuit filed in the nearest federal district court.

Which part of "you just got told by a lawyer well versed in this area that your understanding of the 4th amendment is flawed" did you not understand?

As for searches on board trains; according to Amtrak's terms of carriage, if you refuse an inspection while on board, they can and most likely will leave you standing at the nearest station. Most likely you'll also be standing with those agents that you refused to allow to search your bags. When you buy a ticket on Amtrak, you are agreeing to these terms.

 

[Choo Choo]

I am sorry, but that lawyer is clearly wrong. Refusing a search and being detrained is one thing, having your bags rummaged through without your permission as had happened to OP is clearly another.

 

[Ryan]

You're absolutely right that they're two different things.

And they're both legal, which is why someone's complaining about it on the internet instead of actually doing something about it.

 

[tp49]

Wrong. If they want to search your bag, they need to ask you first. If you refuse, they can deny you boarding, but they still have to ask. Give me a break, people. You don't have to go to law school to know this stuff. Pretty basic. If I came back to my sleeper and my bag was torn apart and there was no warrant, no consent, no excited dog, and the bags were properly labeled with my identfication, there would be a lawsuit filed in the nearest federal district court.

...and according to the person who posted that story the bags searched were not located in his sleeper but in fact in the lower level "H" room. Thus that lawsuit would not survive the first motion to dismiss.

I agree completely, but humbly suggest that you follow the advice in your signature. It's much easier to cling to what folks imagine is in the Constitution than it is to learn about what it actually means and how its applied.

Yes, you're right I think I will follow that advice sage as it is.

 

[jis]

I am sorry, but that lawyer is clearly wrong. Refusing a search and being detrained is one thing, having your bags rummaged through without your permission as had happened to OP is clearly another.

And you basis for that claim of the lawyer being wrong is exactly what? Strong feelings on the matter? Or would you have some case law to cite?