Amtrak Don't Turn Into the ****/KGB Express

[OlympianHiawatha]

How things have changed since the attack. I fondly remember numerous "booze sorties" into Mexico, parking in Laredo and walking across. Several hours later, we would stagger back across the International Bridge and as long as you could get "American" out when the US Immigration official asked, you were good to go. I never recall having to show papers or drivers license.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I don't use TSA locks. I didn't know they were required on Amtrak. Does that mean I have to throw out my beloved 40 year old Samsonite?

 

[Cruiser]

I don't think I would mind answering their questions and showing my identification, if the LEOs asked in a polite manner. We are citizens, and if our cooperation is requested we should provide it, but the key is in how our assistance is requested.

Our closest friend is a federal law enforcement officer, and for all of our discussions of the Bill of Rights (I'll let you guess his position), I have never seen him other than polite when dealing with the public, whether citing them or giving directions (I have done ride-alongs with him before 9/11 when they were allowed).

There is no excuse, nor any reason for them to raise their voices at passengers day or night, while seeking information or identification. And they always have to identify themselves.

Although I would actually give them the info they demand, I would be writing letters to my Congressman, Senators and the Agencies to which the LEOs belonged, even without knowing the names of the individuals involved. The time and place should be enough to identify them.

 

[sunchaser]

I don't use TSA locks. I didn't know they were required on Amtrak. Does that mean I have to throw out my beloved 40 year old Samsonite?

I don't know if they do. I bought them because I didn't have any locks, & I knew they had to have locks in checked baggage. In the off chance that they would search the bags, I didn't want them cut off. We ended up having to take a plane ride just before we took our first train ride, so they did come in handy for that too.

 

[AlanB]

Actually since most states require that you at least prove that you are legally living in the US before you can obtain a driver's license, showing that does help to prove that you are in the country legally. It doesn't prove citizenship, unless you happen to have an Enhanced Drivers License (like I do), but again it does help to prove that you are in the US legally.

In my state, at least, it would at best prove that you were in the country legally when you got the license. The driver's license doesn't expire when the alien's visa does.

That's why I said "it helps" to prove that you might be legal. I never said it was proof positive. But lack of a drivers license is far more likely to subject you to futher checks and questions.

 

[AlanB]

What I don't understand about the ICE (or whatever the Border Patrol is now called) searches is this: I never carry proof of my citizenship. Who does? A regular driver's license certainly is no such proof. How can the officer determine my citizenship? My reading material? My taste in music? My dress? My accent? My skin color?

If the state conforms to the Real ID and issues enhanced DL's, it does in fact, prove citizenship.

Hence my use of the phrase "regular driver's license." Many states, including the one I reside in, do not issue enhanced driver's licenses. Even if Minnesota did, I wouldn't bother getting one. I carry a passport when I travel internationally, and thankfully don't yet see the need to carry proof of citizenship while I am at home.

I didn't get the Enhanced License so that I could prove citizenship while traveling around the states. I got it because its so much easier to carry when crossing into Canada, unlike a passport which doesn't fit conviently into my wallet.

Note: The Enhanced DL isn't good for flights to/from Canada. It's only valid for trains, boats, and land crossings into Canada.

 

[TVRM610]

A couple weeks ago on the CL some Feds (not DOA, the DEA) boarded in ALC. They were plain-clothes. They were talking to the C while the AC boarded us.

Right outside PGH they went through the coaches and woke everybody up asking for IDs and ticket stubs. When I asked who they were, they would not answer. When I asked to see a badge he simply flashed it, at four-thirty on a dark train... after it became clear I wasn't going to comply he introduced himself in a proper manner.

See this post holds more water for me... A- its an actual board member posting, and B- the facts are stated in a clear non-exagerated manner.

This seems a bit more intense than what I saw on the LSL. But of course.. what were they looking for? Would you rather have a flashlight shined in your eye or the train blow up when it gets to WAS. I know thats most likely not what they were looking for but either way... the CL does go through some big cities, anything is possible.

The bottom line, being questioned like that seems crazy.

 

[Trogdor]

Would you rather have a flashlight shined in your eye or the train blow up when it gets to WAS.

I don't see why those are the only two options (nor do I see what one really has to do with the other).

 

[Choo Choo]

Would you rather have a flashlight shined in your eye or the train blow up when it gets to WAS.

I don't see why those are the only two options (nor do I see what one really has to do with the other).

Yeah, either everyone gets roused up in the middle of the night and gets subjected to a flashlight police interrogation, or the train blows up in Washington. It's either, or. Pick your poison. Ridiculous. It's that kind of nonsensical thinking on a mass scale which makes it nearly impossible to have an adequate balance between civil liberties and security in this country.

 

[jis]

Yeah, either everyone gets roused up in the middle of the night and gets subjected to a flashlight police interrogation, or the train blows up in Washington. It's either, or. Pick your poison. Ridiculous. It's that kind of nonsensical thinking on a mass scale which makes it nearly impossible to have an adequate balance between civil liberties and security in this country.

And then there is the case where everyone gets subjected to a flashlight police interrogation and then the train blows up in Washington anyway, because the guy with the explosive got on at Harpers Ferry WV much after the said search.

 

[dlagrua]

Federal officers boarding your train and asking for ID is a throwback to Hitler's **** Germany. You show your ID when you board, that should be quite sufficient. As for drugs they have drug sniffing dogs. No need to search anyone otherwise. The other question that needs to be asked is how many terrorists has TSA apprehended-ZERO.

 

[JayPea]

Yeah, either everyone gets roused up in the middle of the night and gets subjected to a flashlight police interrogation, or the train blows up in Washington. It's either, or. Pick your poison. Ridiculous. It's that kind of nonsensical thinking on a mass scale which makes it nearly impossible to have an adequate balance between civil liberties and security in this country.

And then there is the case where everyone gets subjected to a flashlight police interrogation and then the train blows up in Washington anyway, because the guy with the explosive got on at Harpers Ferry WV much after the said search.

Or the train blows up after a thorough flashlight police interrogation because someone who is nowhere near the train at the time parks a truck full of explosives on a crossing and the train hits it at 79 MPH.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

But of course.. what were they looking for? Would you rather have a flashlight shined in your eye or the train blow up when it gets to WAS. I know thats most likely not what they were looking for but either way... the CL does go through some big cities, anything is possible.

You have no idea how disappointing it was to read that. That has to be just about the most un-American thing I've read on here. Giving up actual liberty for some imaginary security is not how this country was started, but apparently is how it's going to end.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The closest I've heard to any terror related activities involving Amtrak was on or right after 9-11 when some suspects tied to the attacks were removed from the Texas Eagle.

 

[leemell]

Federal officers boarding your train and asking for ID is a throwback to Hitler's **** Germany. You show your ID when you board, that should be quite sufficient. As for drugs they have drug sniffing dogs. No need to search anyone otherwise. The other question that needs to be asked is how many terrorists has TSA apprehended-ZERO.

That we know of.

 

[haolerider]

The closest I've heard to any terror related activities involving Amtrak was on or right after 9-11 when some suspects tied to the attacks were removed from the Texas Eagle.

This thread almost makes it sound as though this is a daily occurence on all Amtrak trains. I have to assume that the middle of the night action has taken place a small number of times and is not routine. Perhaps there was a specific reason for whoever the officals were to suspect some illegal action on the train the OP was riding. If this becomes routine, then I will be very concerned, but as of now, it is a small insignificant item in my mind. "See Something - Say Something" is not an Amtrak originated statement. You see this on public transportation in Chicago for example and it is not a bad idea.

 

[dlagrua]

It is virtually impossible to secure rail travel nor is it necessary. Plus there are 100's of stations (many unmanned), thousands of miles of trackage, & numerous tunnels and bridges. The only way to secure the rail system is to ask for passenger and crew vigilance. We all can keep a far better watchful eye on things than can the federal government.

Again with all the millions of dollars spent and all the millions of passengers flying, the TSA since instituting those dragonian search measures has not intercepted or apprehended a single terrorist. NOT A SINGLE ONE. If there will ever be another terrorist incident it will happen by skirting airport secuity and working from outside. Same with the rails.

 

[Choo Choo]

It's a total waste of money and resources. The immigration coyotes surely know where these checkpoints are, I just did a google search and their locations are all over the internet. Do we really need to spend all that money on manpower so that we might just happen to capture Maria Fernanda the undocumented maid who is just happening to visit an ailing family member? Last time I checked, the 9/11 terrorists all had valid visas and the guy that was going to blow up Times Square had a valid green card. If it is not about terrorism and just about catching illegals, why not go after the employers, secure the borders, or concentrate on areas where illegals actually congregate in large numbers?

As far as drugs are concerned, I don't understand why we can't rely on dogs to catch the drug traffickers. In a vehicle, the Supreme Court has ruled that random drug searches on highways are unconstitutional, but I guess on a train they can wake you up in the middle night and interrogate you with a flashlight.

 

[Ispolkom]

You forgot the grade crossings. Tens of thousands of grade crossings, all unguarded.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

A couple weeks ago on the CL some Feds (not DOA, the DEA) boarded in ALC. They were plain-clothes. They were talking to the C while the AC boarded us.

Right outside PGH they went through the coaches and woke everybody up asking for IDs and ticket stubs. When I asked who they were, they would not answer. When I asked to see a badge he simply flashed it, at four-thirty on a dark train... after it became clear I wasn't going to comply he introduced himself in a proper manner.

See this post holds more water for me... A- its an actual board member posting, and B- the facts are stated in a clear non-exagerated manner.

This seems a bit more intense than what I saw on the LSL. But of course.. what were they looking for? Would you rather have a flashlight shined in your eye or the train blow up when it gets to WAS. I know thats most likely not what they were looking for but either way... the CL does go through some big cities, anything is possible.

The bottom line, being questioned like that seems crazy.

As I said they were DEA. They had drug-sniffing dogs and apparently had a lead that somebody with drugs had boarded the train and was getting off in PGH. I heard most of this on my scanner as the C and AC talked back and forth about how they were going to handle this.

They detained all of us on board until they had run the dogs through the baggage car, the lower levels of every coach and sleeper, and we had to pass the dogs with our carry-ons when we got off. To the best of my knowledge ( by virtue of there being no commotion and them leaving by themselves without any luggage), they had found nothing.

I may have been more comfortable with it if it had been the day time, but it certainly was annoying, if not a little bit scary to be woken up all at once in a coach with everybody else at 4:30AM as these guys stomped (yes, stomped) through the coaches back and forth back and forth.

IMHO they had no clue on what they were doing. If they had a legitimate tip that they had a drug trafficker on board they wouldn't need to check everybody's ID and ticket stub. I guess they had no description as to what this person would look like-- what they were looking for, heck they didn't even know if it was a man or woman. They carded everybody except kids.

Of course the C and AC could have been wrong about these guys having a legitimate tip-- and this was a purely random search. But if it were, this was not exactly the best place and time to do it if they want to avoid the whole "we're here to serve and protect" image. "Annoy and intimidate" was more what it felt like.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

And for the record they didn't "interrogate" me... I asked them more than they ask me-- albeit things they require you to provide, such as badge, agency, and just-cause for search.

They asked me for the following, in order:

1. My ID and ticket stub.

2. Where my final destination was.

3. Had I noticed anything out of the ordinary.

To the final question-- I replied "you four and the dogs is a bit strange," he didn't respond and moved to the next seat and did the whole thing again.

They had flashlights but didn't shine them in our faces, in fact they had to obtain the flashlights from the train crew-- apparently they had thought they wouldn't need them. The C refused to turn the lights on in the coaches as it wasn't 7AM yet and didn't want to **** off a trainload of pax more than he needed to I guess.

 

[Guest]

I'm SHOCKED!SHOCKED! that DEA, the most corrupt of all law enforcement agencies (they learned from pros in the Orient/Latin America etc.)pulled a security theater raid on a LD train! Meanwhile TONS of drugs were coming into the ports, airports and across the borders day and night! The phony "War on Drugs" was lost before it began and billions are being wasted on this and the other phony war in Iraq and orther muslim countries! Those of you too young to remember only need to be told one word to say it all: "Vietnam!"

Leave the trains alone and catch the real criminals which include lots of your fellow officers and politicians in this country and others!

 

[Choo Choo]

Sounds like a fishing expedition to me. Bring out the dogs at the station in PGH. Don't storm through the train in the middle of the night, and demand that people consent to unreasonable searches at that hour.

 

[tp49]

As I said they were DEA. They had drug-sniffing dogs and apparently had a lead that somebody with drugs had boarded the train and was getting off in PGH. I heard most of this on my scanner as the C and AC talked back and forth about how they were going to handle this.

IMHO they had no clue on what they were doing. If they had a legitimate tip that they had a drug trafficker on board they wouldn't need to check everybody's ID and ticket stub. I guess they had no description as to what this person would look like-- what they were looking for, heck they didn't even know if it was a man or woman. They carded everybody except kids.

Of course the C and AC could have been wrong about these guys having a legitimate tip-- and this was a purely random search. But if it were, this was not exactly the best place and time to do it if they want to avoid the whole "we're here to serve and protect" image. "Annoy and intimidate" was more what it felt like.

They probably did have a tip. Generally speaking the DEA will not conduct operations that early in the morning on a train unless there was a chance that what they were looking for was going to get off before a reasonable hour in the morning. Warrants are usually not served until 6 or 7 AM though there are some exceptions to that. A "random" walk-through would be done later in the morning or in the afternoon.

I'm SHOCKED!SHOCKED! that DEA, the most corrupt of all law enforcement agencies (they learned from pros in the Orient/Latin America etc.)pulled a security theater raid on a LD train! Meanwhile TONS of drugs were coming into the ports, airports and across the borders day and night! The phony "War on Drugs" was lost before it began and billions are being wasted on this and the other phony war in Iraq and orther muslim countries! Those of you too young to remember only need to be told one word to say it all: "Vietnam!"

Leave the trains alone and catch the real criminals which include lots of your fellow officers and politicians in this country and others!

*facepalm*

So you mean to tell me that the person who's case file I've examined who was arrested by the DEA on an Amtrak train allegedly trafficking drugs across country is not a real criminal, and that the DEA was wasting their time in conducting an operation on the train? Well the minimum of 20 years hard time in federal prison they are facing is very real.

Like it or not enough people are moving drugs on Amtrak trains to necessitate these types of operations. Just because you don't hear or read about these people getting arrested and convicted doesn't mean it is not happening.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So what you're saying is that we need to make these drugs legal and regulate them instead of wasting BILLIONS on yet another endless war America can ill afford and will never actually win. I agree. It could also cut down on all the gang wars as they fight over who can smuggle and sell to millions of brain-dead Americans. Better to have those addicts actually paying taxes instead of wasting them on midnight ***** train inspections.