Hurricane Sandy and Amtrak.

[AlanB]

From Newsday, Tuesday 11/6/12:

The LIRR was running about 40 to 45 percent of the trains it would normally run, because it has access to only two of the four East River tunnels for rail traffic into Penn Station, (LIRR spokesman Salvatore) Arena said Tuesday morning. The other two were flooded during last week's storm.

According to this report, there were only two of four tunnels open this morning.

Newsday

A minor nit, but it actually says that they only had access to two tunnels. With the way that's worded, one could interpret that Amtrak isn't permitting them access to a third open tunnel if indeed a third is open.

As I said above, I don't understand the disconnect with the conflicting information. Too many things simply don't make sense here and I'm not really sure what's going on. Not trying to argue, but too many things just don't add up. Like how the water got into the Line 1 tunnel, if indeed it did. And I definitely don't understand how the Acela I saw could be where it was, unless the tunnel was open. Maybe it had just reopened at that point in time? Maybe they ran it through without signals and haven't fully reopened that tunnel? I don't know.

One thing i can talk about however is the Lake Shore. If only the Line 1 tunnel were open and the Line 2 is out, then the Lake Shore would arrive into NYP essentially backwards. The only way to get to the Line 1 tunnel from Sunnyside yard is to run around the loop track.

Now normally the LSL would depart NYP via the Line 1 tunnel and then go around the loop at SNY, arriving into the yard now facing the correct direction for the next day. The next day it would leave the yard and head to NYP via the Line 2 tunnel to reach the correct tracks for Empire Service. If Line 2 is out, then the only way to reach the correct tracks at NYP would be Line 1, and that would require them to run back around the loop, and leave the consist backwards. I suppose if someone wanted to actually make SNY work, they could disassemble the consist car by car, flat switch everything into the correct order and reassemble the consist. But that's a lot of work. This problem would not plague the Silvers & Crescent, as they can go through the Line 4 tunnel and still make the North River tunnels.

 

[AlanB]

I only used the irregular operation as a point of argument since running the LSL consist to Boston would not be necessary if three tunnels were open.

We were posting at the same time, but as I explained, with the Line 2 tunnel down it would still not be easy to run the LSL using the Line 1 tunnel. The consist would be backwards if one tried that.

Yet this problem would not plague the other LD's.

 

[Phil S]

So why all the NEC cancellations today? Seems like yesterday there were only the LSL's. Election day?

 

[jis]

One of the Hudson tubes is out. Which basically reduces capacity to weekend levels coming in from/going out to the south/west.

 

[afigg]

One of the Hudson tubes is out. Which basically reduces capacity to weekend levels coming in from/going out to the south/west.

Which provides Amtrak (and NJT) the opportunity to talk to the press and the politicians the need to build the two new tunnels under the Hudson River. The considerable economic impact of the disruption of the NEC, the NYC subway, NJT, LIRR, MNRR should make the case to the public, the business community, the media, and the politicians that the rail systems are vital to the economic health of the NEC mega-region and it is time to pay up.

 

[NE933]

During a post hurricane information on tv slot today, NJ Gov. Chris Christie stated that the East River Amtrak tunnels that have been drained are still with only a fraction of the power, meaning at half their capacity and slower speeds. Also, it's possible for electricity to "leak", especially when salt water has eroded the rubber conduit, mix that with thousands of miles worth wire and cable makes for a nightmare for the electricians to find.

 

[PRR 60]

We are exactly two weeks from Amtrak and the NEC's busiest day of the year. I wonder if the damage in and around New York will have an impact on Amtrak ability to run the proposed holiday schedule?

 

[jis]

One of the Hudson tubes is out. Which basically reduces capacity to weekend levels coming in from/going out to the south/west.

Which provides Amtrak (and NJT) the opportunity to talk to the press and the politicians the need to build the two new tunnels under the Hudson River. The considerable economic impact of the disruption of the NEC, the NYC subway, NJT, LIRR, MNRR should make the case to the public, the business community, the media, and the politicians that the rail systems are vital to the economic health of the NEC mega-region and it is time to pay up.

I am not aware of any politician in NJ or downstate NY who does not know the issue or is opposed to building new tunnels. The question is of finding the money and figuring out who should pay what proportion. As usual that is where political posturing and party sacred cows come into play. BTW, NJT is the Governor of NJ. He appoints every bit of NJT's management hierarchy, so NJT will never say anything that the Governor does not say or approve, unless he makes a horrible "mistake" in his appointments. This one has made no such mistake, and neither did the last one. He has the appropriate lampposts and potted plants at the appropriate places. The relevant question usually is with how little damage can we survive each Gubernatorial term.

Even when they try to do ostensibly positive things like build the ARC tunnels they get things horribly wrong due to the politics and egos involved. For example one of Mr. Warrington's missions apparently became figuring out how to wrest as much control of the NEC as possible from Amtrak, never mind that NJ State did not have the wherewithall to actually run the infrastructure to support all the traffic that runs on it. And the then Governor was too preoccupied by other things to get his pooch to heel. What followed was the ARC fiasco in which Amtrak was completely cut out and thrown the bone of 3 additional trains per hour into Penn Station, and NJT got saddled with extermely expensive dual-mode locomotives which they don;t know what to do with now.

The bottom line problem in NJ is that there is gross imbalance between capital funding and operating funds. Usually operating funds do not provide enough money to actually operate the equipment obtained using capital funds effectively. And Governor after Governor has either chosen to ignore the problem or kicked the can down the road, including this one. Even 15 tunnels between NJ and NY won't solve that problem and without solving that there will be nothing to run through those tunnels other than a few Amtrak trains and the current NJT traffic if they can maintain it. Afterall most of the traffic through those tunnels always will be NJT, with Amtrak providing something like maybe 4 to 10 tph in each direction for the next decade or two, notwithstanding all the grand plans.

 

[AlanB]

NJT got saddled with extermely expensive dual-mode locomotives which they don;t know what to do with now.

Maybe they can sell them to Amtrak in a few years as the replacements for the aging P32 AC-DM's.

The bottom line problem in NJ is that there is gross imbalance between capital funding and operating funds. Usually operating funds do not provide enough money to actually operate the equipment obtained using capital funds effectively. And Governor after Governor has either chosen to ignore the problem or kicked the can down the road, including this one.

This has always been a problem and I suspect that it will continue forever to be a problem; and not just for NJ, but also NY. And part of the problem is the fact that a politician can point to a pretty new bridge, a new tunnel, or a new train and say "See what I did for you!" They can't do that with operating expenses. And therein lies a big part of the problem IMHO.

 

[jis]

Here is an interesting letter from Kevin O'Connor VP and GM Rail Operations at NJTRO:

http://xa.yimg.com/k...4/name/Hurrican

Since it does have some Amtrak related info, I thought appropriate to bring it up in this thread.

Apparently even if the second Hudson Tube was put back in service, the number of trains will not go up drastically due to traction power shortage since the feeding substation by Swift interlocking is knocked out due to flooding and will take quite a while to repair.

BTW, this also pretty much corroborates what PRR had posted earlier regarding tunnels.

 

[afigg]

I am not aware of any politician in NJ or downstate NY who does not know the issue or is opposed to building new tunnels. The question is of finding the money and figuring out who should pay what proportion. As usual that is where political posturing and party sacred cows come into play. BTW, NJT is the Governor of NJ. He appoints every bit of NJT's management hierarchy, so NJT will never say anything that the Governor does not say or approve, unless he makes a horrible "mistake" in his appointments. This one has made no such mistake, and neither did the last one. He has the appropriate lampposts and potted plants at the appropriate places. The relevant question usually is with how little damage can we survive each Gubernatorial term.

I understand that the politicians in NY and NJ are pretty much in support of the core components of the Gateway project (2 new Hudson tunnels, Portal bridge replacements), but that the disaster should get the multiple transportation agencies, NYC, the representatives from the NEC states off the dime and get going on putting together a funding package.

First, the region has to clean up from the storm and get the transit systems back into full operation. NJT may undergo some management shakeups. In Washington, the fiscal cliff, tax issues, FY2013 budget will have to be fought over in the coming lame duck session of Congress and in the early days of the next Congress. Once that is done (and a deal will be reached after much hue and cry), the next transportation authorization bill will have to be written. MAP21 expires on September 30, 2014 after all. That would be the time to get all the Governors, Senators and Congresspersons from the NEC states to back a NEC modernization program which along with state & Port Authority contributions, would fund critical NEC projects. Maybe even provide funding to pay for part of an Amfleet I replacement program. Disasters such as the storm can overcome the political inertia that often stalls infrastructure projects.

 

[jis]

I am not aware of any politician in NJ or downstate NY who does not know the issue or is opposed to building new tunnels. The question is of finding the money and figuring out who should pay what proportion. As usual that is where political posturing and party sacred cows come into play. BTW, NJT is the Governor of NJ. He appoints every bit of NJT's management hierarchy, so NJT will never say anything that the Governor does not say or approve, unless he makes a horrible "mistake" in his appointments. This one has made no such mistake, and neither did the last one. He has the appropriate lampposts and potted plants at the appropriate places. The relevant question usually is with how little damage can we survive each Gubernatorial term.

I understand that the politicians in NY and NJ are pretty much in support of the core components of the Gateway project (2 new Hudson tunnels, Portal bridge replacements), but that the disaster should get the multiple transportation agencies, NYC, the representatives from the NEC states off the dime and get going on putting together a funding package.

First, the region has to clean up from the storm and get the transit systems back into full operation. NJT may undergo some management shakeups. In Washington, the fiscal cliff, tax issues, FY2013 budget will have to be fought over in the coming lame duck session of Congress and in the early days of the next Congress. Once that is done (and a deal will be reached after much hue and cry), the next transportation authorization bill will have to be written. MAP21 expires on September 30, 2014 after all. That would be the time to get all the Governors, Senators and Congresspersons from the NEC states to back a NEC modernization program which along with state & Port Authority contributions, would fund critical NEC projects. Maybe even provide funding to pay for part of an Amfleet I replacement program. Disasters such as the storm can overcome the political inertia that often stalls infrastructure projects.

Anything is possible, But the result of disaster recovery funding has been mixed. Witness the WTC recovery and Fulton Street Transportation Complex. Both are financial disasters in their own right. Hopefully whatever comes out of this will be managed a little better than those.

I would be astounded if someone can turn this into an Amfleet I replacement program though, since there are so many other things that need fixing way more urgently in the area than Amfleet Is, which are really good enough for another 10 years.

 

[B&Ofan]

As for the LSL, I have verified (at least on Saturday) that they are not running the full train to Boston, just the Boston section. I had hoped to see a big long distnace train leaving the area, but alas.

 

[Henry Kisor]

From Amtrak Media Relations today:

AMTRAK TO RE-OPEN THREE TUNNELS TO PENN STATION NEW YORK BY LATE FRIDAY, NOV. 9

Expanded train service north, south and west of NYC to follow

WASHINGTON - By late Friday, Nov. 9, Amtrak intends to re-open three tunnels that provide access to/from Penn Station New York (PSNY) which were significantly flooded and damaged by Hurricane Sandy. All Amtrak PSNY tunnels will then be in operation and will allow expanded Amtrak and commuter rail service north, south and west of New York City. Individual tunnels are expected to open at various times during the next three days.

"The return of all tunnel access to New York City will be a major milestone in the continued restoration of Amtrak and commuter rail service and for the larger recovery efforts of the Northeast region," said President and CEO Joe Boardman.

Two of the tunnels (known as Line 1 and Line 2) that will re-open this week are located under the East River and will support more Northeast Corridor service north of New York and Empire Service and other trains that operate to/from Albany and further west. When the two tunnels open, each will operate at 80 percent capacity, or at a peak level of about 32 trains per hour, as repairs continue. Two other East River tunnels did not flood and are operating at 100 percent capacity, or at a peak level of about 40 trains per hour.

The other tunnel (known as the North Tube) to re-open is located under the Hudson River and will allow expanded Amtrak and New Jersey Transit commuter rail service south of New York. In combination with the South Tube, which re-opened on Oct. 31, the two Hudson River tunnels will operate at about 63 percent capacity, or a peak of about 24 trains per hour which doubles the capacity of a peak of 12 per hour today. A normal peak is about 38 trains per hour.

The ability to further increase capacity through the Hudson River tunnels is currently limited by significant flooding damage at a key electrical substation located near Kearney, N.J. On Nov. 6, with the assistance of the Army Corps of Engineers, Amtrak brought the flooding under control and de-watered the facility. The equipment is now being cleaned and will be tested to determine the damage, the next course of action and estimated time for repair. Amtrak is able to bypass this substation, but because the power used for this section of track now has to supply a longer distance, the number of trains allowed to take power in the longer supply section is to be restricted in order to protect the catenary wires from over heating or tripping the supply breakers on overload until the substation is back on line for full restoration of service.

In addition, the 1930s-era electrical system was built by the Pennsylvania Railroad and inherited by Amtrak when it took control of sections of the Northeast Corridor in 1976. It uses unusual 25 Hz current; most modern electrical components are designed for 60 Hz current, thus limiting the ability to easily substitute electrical components or bring in alternate power sources.

The Hurricane Sandy storm surge flooded four of six 102-year-old tunnels under the Hudson and East Rivers for the first time in their history. In particular, signal and electrical systems in three of the four flooded tunnels were severely damaged by the salt water. Amtrak crews have designed a bypass for the signal system to allow the tunnels to re-open and provide safe operations, but more repairs are needed.

While Amtrak's Northeast Corridor received unprecedented levels of storm damage from Hurricane Sandy, investments made since 2002 helped mitigate the damage and are assisting in the recovery. For example, fire and life safety improvements in the New York tunnels including better emergency ingress/egress points and an enhanced ventilation system have supported the inspection process, de-watering / drying efforts and repair activities.

 

[Nathanael]

Reading the press release reminds me: Amtrak had a plan, long ago, to convert to 60 Hz overhead power, which has for some reason been indefinitely delayed. I would suggest that ASAP is a good time to do it.

 

[PRR 60]

Reading the press release reminds me: Amtrak had a plan, long ago, to convert to 60 Hz overhead power, which has for some reason been indefinitely delayed. I would suggest that ASAP is a good time to do it.

It has not been delayed. it was dropped. The conversion costs, both for Amtrak and the supply utilities (whose costs would be borne by Amtrak), were too high with too little benefit. Amtrak is committed to 25Hz for the south-end NEC and has backed that commitment with multiple new and expanded frequency conversion facilities. With the exception of the flooded substation, the existing system got through the storm very well - arguably much better than the commercial utilities.

The existing system gives Amtrak a significant advantage. Amtrak has the capability to transmit power from remote sources through dedicated high-voltage transmission lines up and down the NEC. Philadelphia power can run trains into New York. New Jersey power can run trains in Maryland. That long-distance transmission capability allowed Amtrak to operate through areas where commercial power was out.

Amtrak's existing 25Hz, single phase high voltage transmission system is physically incompatible with 60Hz, three-phase power and would be useless following conversion. Amtrak could not move power long distances. They would be dependent on supply from multiple commercial sources along the NEC, each with a limited reach. That would make Amtrak more susceptible to area utility outages. With most of North Jersey blacked out following Sandy, there is no doubt in my mind that Amtrak would not have been up and running as quickly if they had been dependent on multiple, 60Hz, three-phase power sources. The decision to stay with the 25Hz, single phase system likely saved the NEC from multiple days out-of-service.

 

[jis]

The utilities have proved to be so phenomenally ill equipped and incompetent that even if Amtrak went to 60Hz, they would be well advised to keep their own distribution network IMHO.

 

[Nathanael]

Reading the press release reminds me: Amtrak had a plan, long ago, to convert to 60 Hz overhead power, which has for some reason been indefinitely delayed. I would suggest that ASAP is a good time to do it.

It has not been delayed. it was dropped. The conversion costs, both for Amtrak and the supply utilities (whose costs would be borne by Amtrak), were too high with too little benefit. Amtrak is committed to 25Hz for the south-end NEC and has backed that commitment with multiple new and expanded frequency conversion facilities.

Horrendously poor choice. There is no excuse for this waste of taxpayer money.

With the exception of the flooded substation, the existing system got through the storm very well - arguably much better than the commercial utilities.

Whatever. The flooded substation, which won't be fixed for *weeks*, and will probably require custom-manufactured parts, makes up for all that and more.

The existing system gives Amtrak a significant advantage. Amtrak has the capability to transmit power from remote sources through dedicated high-voltage transmission lines up and down the NEC.

You can do that with standard frequencies. Heck, if you really want to you can even use rotary converters without changing frequency (for power "cleaning", if you like).

Philadelphia power can run trains into New York. New Jersey power can run trains in Maryland. That long-distance transmission capability allowed Amtrak to operate through areas where commercial power was out.

Which worked in the 60 Hz zone too.

Amtrak's existing 25Hz, single phase high voltage transmission system is physically incompatible with 60Hz, three-phase power

Really? So distribute 60 Hz, single phase power, for which the parts are readily available. I believe the wires could absolutely be reused. Most of them are due for replacement in any case...

The decision to stay with the 25Hz, single phase system likely saved the NEC from multiple days out-of-service.

No, it didn't. The decision to retain Amtrak's own distribution system did. That's not the same thing at all; Amtrak should certainly retain their own distribution system, but it shouldn't be a *completely nonstandard* system for which parts are not mass-produced.

 

[AlanB]

The existing system gives Amtrak a significant advantage. Amtrak has the capability to transmit power from remote sources through dedicated high-voltage transmission lines up and down the NEC.

You can do that with standard frequencies. Heck, if you really want to you can even use rotary converters without changing frequency (for power "cleaning", if you like).

Nathanael,

Just as an FYI, and not in an attempt to silence your opinion, but you should know that Bill (PRR60) just retired about 2 years ago from PECO. PECO is the power authority for the Philly area and also the major supplier for Amtrak's power for the southern NEC. As an engineer, Bill's area of responsibility was the supply of the high voltage power to the region, including supplying Amtrak. I know Bill very well having met him many times and I've had many discussions on all things Amtrak & power, and even a few airline discussions too, and I know just enough to know that Bill knows his stuff when it comes to electric power.

You are arguing with probably the best expert around who doesn't actually work for Amtrak, and someone who has no stake anymore in any fashion, on how the NEC is powered. So the idea of anyone trying to explain to Bill anything about rotary frequency converters is, I'm sorry to say, almost laughable. Bill has personally seen at least some of the converters that help to power the NEC.

 

[jis]

It should be noted that if Amtrak wanted to simply continue to use its distribution network as is in situ, even after covnerting to 60Hz, basically they would have to replace the 60Hz to 25 Hz conversion stations to 60Hz to 60Hz conversion stations, which would be somewhat pointless thing to do.

Converting to 60Hz using commercial supply will require complete redoing of the distribution network taking care of phase balancing etc., whcih will be a hugely expensive undertaking. Even if it is to be contemplated it can only possibly be done on a segment by segment basis over many years, and that may not be the best allocation of limited funds at this time.

One may argue about it until the cows come home, but the fact remains that at present Amtrak is committed to 25Hz, and is in the process of installling additional 25Hz conversion facilities at Metuchen, and will be in the future upgrading several other conversion facilities' capacity.

One gain from converting to 60Hz would be the possibility of shedding some transformer weight from all power rolling stock.

While it is true that it is Amtrak's own distribution infrastructure that saved it from the utility supply meltdown, practically speaking the reason that Amtrak has its own distribution network is because it cannot use any other network. If it had converted to 60Hz, it would most likely have gotten out of the business of running its own network and baught power from utilities at the trackside substations.

 

[jis]

Now we know how East River Tunnel 1 got flooded. Tunnel 1 and Tunnel 2 share a sump pump. When Tunnel 2 flooded it overwhelmed the sump pump and water flowed through the sump from Tunnel 2 to Tunnel 1. According to the same post in trainorders Tunnel 4 never flooded. There were other problems in using it initially.

From another post we learn that NJT M&E service cannot be restarted until the washout in the vicinity of Kearny, where the M&E ducks under the NEC is fixed, and electrification poles which had their foudnations undermined by scouring of flood flow are replaced.

 

[CHamilton]

From Amtrak on Facebook:

As a public service to support the recovery of the Northeast, we are extending for another week free travel to first responders on the Northeast Corridor.

Did I miss an earlier announcement? The same post says:

We are proud to partner with the city of Slidell, LA., to bring a railcar donated with relief supplies to New Jersey communities hit hard by Hurricane Sandy. The Train of Hope 2012 - Hurricane Sandy Relief Efforts for New Jersey, will arrive in Newark N.J. tomorrow on the northbound Cresent that left New Orleans today.

 

[Nathanael]

Sigh. So, thanks to shortsighted decisions, power will be down until custom 25 Hz parts can be manufactured for Kearny. Well, from Amtrak's POV that's fine because that's enough power to run Amtrak, but NJT is SOL for the foreseeable future.

Of course, we can't expect NJT (which is the main entity harmed by this) to do anything. It seems to have a history of poor planning. The state of NJ is the entity which should be standardizing the power distribution system and setting up redundant distribution networks, but that clearly isn't going to happen.

From another post we learn that NJT M&E service cannot be restarted until the washout in the vicinity of Kearny, where the M&E ducks under the NEC is fixed, and electrification poles which had their foudnations undermined by scouring of flood flow are replaced.

People who commute to Newark Broad Street from points west are going to be very unhappy about the decision to treat them as if they don't exist. My respect for NJT is dropping daily.

 

[jis]

One thing that people don't seem to realize is that NJT is run by the NJ DoT which is primarily a department focused on highways and road transport, and NJT's internal organization is rotten to the core. It is an absolute wonder that NJTRO actually operates at all....

 

[AlanB]

By way of an update, yesterday I was on 2250 to Boston and we used the Line 2 tunnel. Not sure why, and I'm not sure if that means that Line 1 is still out or not. But I was quite surprised to pop up on the wrong side of the LIRR Hunterspoint Station.

I'll see what happens as we head back today, maybe we'll go in via the LIne 1 tunnel. :lol: