Hurricane Sandy and Amtrak.

[AlanB]

The 63rd St and 53rd St tunnels are practically redundant, apart from a couple of stops; even E service is redundant with a combination of other lines (F/D/A). I suspect that the MTA has simply been focusing its inspections and repairs on the tunnels which are *not* redundant. The time of the inspectors and switch maintainers and electrical maintainers is in high demand, no doubt. There may be nothing seriously wrong with the 53rd St. tunnel, and it would still make sense not to start using it until the inspectors and maintainers have repaired all the *non-redundant* tunnels.

I'm sorry, but I've got to totally disagree on the 53rd Street tunnel being redundant with the 63rd. Without the 53rd Street tunnel you lose 3 major stations and one cannot restore full service to the Queens Blvd line. Without full service, one will continue to see the huge lines at stops like 74th Street saw on Friday.

In fact, but for the Astoria line being out, I'd consider the 59th Street tunnel to be more redundant than the 53rd Street tunnel. The 53rd Street affects many more people than losing the 59th Street tunnel would.

This does indicate the value of redundancy. The situation with the R is similar; while they want to pump the water out quickly (because the longer the saltwater sits, the more damage is done), once they've pumped out the water they'll probably focus on less-redundant lines.

They are pumping there, but no word on how far they've gotten.

There's hints that the G is being pumped out (people are hearing work trains running under the street).

The G has problems at Newton Creek, the transition between Queens & Brooklyn. The G is also the least used line in the city. Ray Lhota indicated that they're not even working on that line at present and it will be the last line to return to service.

 

[the_traveler]

'Stout' Northeaster May Bring Some Flooding and High Winds

As the region continues to reel from one unwelcome weather pattern, another looms.

Even as those left without power or homes by the storm struggle to cope with temperatures that are supposed to drop into the low thirties tonight... a “pretty stout nor’easter” is heading this way midweek, said Joey Picca, a National Weather Service meteorologist.

The storm, expected to hit Wednesday night, while nothing like Hurricane Sandy, could bring moderate coastal flooding and is expected to pack an inch or two of rain, as well as sustained winds of 30 to 40 miles an hour, with gusts across parts of coastal Long Island of up to 60 miles an hour.

Just what we need in the northeast! I think I'll move to Florida to get away from hurricanes and other storms!

 

[jis]

Yeah I am definitely moving to Florida in a year or two.

(null)

 

[Nathanael]

The 63rd St and 53rd St tunnels are practically redundant, apart from a couple of stops; even E service is redundant with a combination of other lines (F/D/A). I suspect that the MTA has simply been focusing its inspections and repairs on the tunnels which are *not* redundant. The time of the inspectors and switch maintainers and electrical maintainers is in high demand, no doubt. There may be nothing seriously wrong with the 53rd St. tunnel, and it would still make sense not to start using it until the inspectors and maintainers have repaired all the *non-redundant* tunnels.

I'm sorry, but I've got to totally disagree on the 53rd Street tunnel being redundant with the 63rd. Without the 53rd Street tunnel you lose 3 major stations and one cannot restore full service to the Queens Blvd line. Without full service, one will continue to see the huge lines at stops like 74th Street saw on Friday.

In fact, but for the Astoria line being out, I'd consider the 59th Street tunnel to be more redundant than the 53rd Street tunnel. The 53rd Street affects many more people than losing the 59th Street tunnel would.

True, it is more useful (due to those stations). But it is still redundant apart from the three stations; redundancy does not mean lack of utility! The 63rd St. tunnel could totally carry the full capacity of the Queens Boulevard Line express tracks; it's the same number of tracks as the 53rd St. tunnel, and it joins the 6th Avenue Line in the same location, and the Queens Boulevard Line in roughly the same location, and has the same connections to other lines (apart from the G), and stations not far away.

The lack of the 53rd St tunnel is not what is restricting the capacity which can be run on the Queens Boulevard Line. If you look at the situation carefully, the real restriction is turnaround capacity in Manhattan, which will only be alleviated when the Manhattan-Brooklyn tunnels and bridges are back up.

 

[Nathanael]

Perhaps I should clarify: the 63rd and 53rd St Tunnels are redundant *with each other*. As long as one of them is operating, they do not restrict the operation of services on either end. The 53rd St. is clearly more useful than the 63rd St.

The F and A/C tunnels from Manhattan to Brooklyn would be a redundant pair except that the full capacity of both is needed to supply the capacity on either end.

Likewise, the R tunnel and the south-side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge would be a redundant pair except that the full capacity of both is needed to supply the capacity on either end.

The 63rd St tunnel was originally intended to feed additional tracks on either end, but as finally built... it didn't. As a result it ends up basically providing redundancy to the 53rd St tunnel.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Yeah I am definitely moving to Florida in a year or two.

(null)

Won't you miss out on your frequent Acela rides and the non-stop flight to India from Newark?

~

I read through past 3 or 4 pages worth of posts at once now and sitting here on the opposite coast having no real idea of the magnitude of damage that Sandy caused, it amazes me how bad it has been and how hard the various authorities are trying to get things back up and running as fast as they can. Kudos to all those unnamed possibly thousands of workers toiling physically under those several tunnels getting things sorted out.

 

[Nathanael]

And this is just the trains! The damage caused to other infrastructure is extensive too.

Anyway, Amtrak has an announcement about Monday service up now.

November 4, 2012

4:15 p.m. ET

Amtrak will provide Acela Express and Northeast Regional service on the Northeast Corridor between Boston-New York City-Washington, D.C. with reduced frequencies on Monday, November 5. Amtrak continues the restoration on the Empire Service operating between New York City and Albany-Rensselaer on a modified schedule.

Amtrak services to and from New York City are subject to delay while repairs continue.

To avoid the possibility of long lines at ticket offices and sold-out trains, passengers should make reservations and payment in advance through Amtrak.com, through the Amtrak app on a smartphone, or by calling 800-USA-RAIL. Amtrak will update this statement, as necessary, throughout the day on Monday, November 5.

Other plans for Monday, November 5:

• All long distance trains will operate normally to/from New York City. Scheduling exceptions are as follow: the Lake Shore Limited (Chicago-Boston) and the Maple Leaf (New York-Toronto, Ontario, Canada) will have separate connecting train service available for points south of Albany-Rensselaer.
  
• Keystone Service will only operate between Harrisburg, Penn., and Philadelphia, with the exception of Trains 656 and 639.
  
• The northbound Ethan Allen Express will operate New York to Rutland, Vt.
  

Assuming that the Ethan Allen will resume southbound service on Tuesday, that will restore service to every station. Which is fairly impressive work. Still work to be done before normal schedules can be resumed, though.

 

[AlanB]

The 63rd St and 53rd St tunnels are practically redundant, apart from a couple of stops; even E service is redundant with a combination of other lines (F/D/A). I suspect that the MTA has simply been focusing its inspections and repairs on the tunnels which are *not* redundant. The time of the inspectors and switch maintainers and electrical maintainers is in high demand, no doubt. There may be nothing seriously wrong with the 53rd St. tunnel, and it would still make sense not to start using it until the inspectors and maintainers have repaired all the *non-redundant* tunnels.

I'm sorry, but I've got to totally disagree on the 53rd Street tunnel being redundant with the 63rd. Without the 53rd Street tunnel you lose 3 major stations and one cannot restore full service to the Queens Blvd line. Without full service, one will continue to see the huge lines at stops like 74th Street saw on Friday.

In fact, but for the Astoria line being out, I'd consider the 59th Street tunnel to be more redundant than the 53rd Street tunnel. The 53rd Street affects many more people than losing the 59th Street tunnel would.

True, it is more useful (due to those stations). But it is still redundant apart from the three stations; redundancy does not mean lack of utility! The 63rd St. tunnel could totally carry the full capacity of the Queens Boulevard Line express tracks; it's the same number of tracks as the 53rd St. tunnel, and it joins the 6th Avenue Line in the same location, and the Queens Boulevard Line in roughly the same location, and has the same connections to other lines (apart from the G), and stations not far away.

The lack of the 53rd St tunnel is not what is restricting the capacity which can be run on the Queens Boulevard Line. If you look at the situation carefully, the real restriction is turnaround capacity in Manhattan, which will only be alleviated when the Manhattan-Brooklyn tunnels and bridges are back up.

Then what does one do with the local trains if we only send the express trains through the 63rd Street tunnel? There are 4 lines that operate on the Queens Blvd line. We're not getting them all through the 63rd Street tunnel. And all 4 lines are often packed during rush hour by the time they leave 74th Street/Roosevelt.

That said, I don't understand why the R isn't running through the 59th Street tunnel, unless that took some flooding too. That would at least help some.

And the Manhattan Bridge is back up, D trains are running across it, and we still haven't seen an increase in the number of trains.

 

[AlanB]

Perhaps I should clarify: the 63rd and 53rd St Tunnels are redundant *with each other*. As long as one of them is operating, they do not restrict the operation of services on either end. The 53rd St. is clearly more useful than the 63rd St.

..................

The 63rd St tunnel was originally intended to feed additional tracks on either end, but as finally built... it didn't. As a result it ends up basically providing redundancy to the 53rd St tunnel.

Incorrect. Without both tunnels the normal capacity of the Queens Blvd. line into Manhattan would be reduced by 1/4th. Prior to the arrival of the 63rd Street tunnel, the E & F both operated through the 53rd Street tunnel and the R went through the 59th Street tunnel. The G was the 4th train servicing the QB line and it went to Brooklyn.

Now thanks to the 63rd Street tunnel, all 4 lines on the QB tracks run into Manhattan. The F flying solo through the 63rd St and the M having replaced the F in the 53rd St tunnel.

The F and A/C tunnels from Manhattan to Brooklyn would be a redundant pair except that the full capacity of both is needed to supply the capacity on either end.

The Rutgers Street tunnel for the F could carry the C train and still provide full capacity for both the C & the F. It cannnot however handle the A train, even assuming that one plays the needed tricks to even get the A over to the F line.

 

[AlanB]

Kudos to all those unnamed possibly thousands of workers toiling physically under those several tunnels getting things sorted out.

Here, Here!

 

[Nathanael]

That said, I don't understand why the R isn't running through the 59th Street tunnel, unless that took some flooding too. That would at least help some.

And the Manhattan Bridge is back up, D trains are running across it, and we still haven't seen an increase in the number of trains.

So, we need to run 4 lines out of the Queens Boulevard line. You can run two through the 63rd st. tunnel, two through the 59th St. tunnel -- ah, right, but you need the Astoria line, so you're still one short, and the G is flooded, so you can't go that way either. Point taken. Well, the Q could be run up the Queens Boulevard line as the fourth service, so the problem still isn't the Queens-Manhattan tunnels.

The big issue is that they're not even running 3 lines off of Queens Boulevard yet. The R should be running, but it's not. And of course the Q isn't running through Manhattan either. In short, the problem is that trains aren't running through on the Broadway Line in Manhattan.

I think the lack of the R line is clearly because of limited turnaround ability on the BMT Broadway Line. Notice that the Q still isn't running to Manhattan either. Now, there must be some serious problem which we don't know about on the Broadway line, because trains really should have been running down it and across the south side of the Manhattan Bridge by now.

Now, with the Broadway Line not available as an option, would the 53rd St tunnel help? Probably not much. There's a lack of capacity to turn around on the 8th Avenue Line, so you probably can't send trains there until you can send some all the way to World Trade Center or Brooklyn. As for the 6th Avenue Line, I guess the B isn't running yet, but there's probably not much extra capacity there right now either.

If the problems with the Broadway Line continue until after the A is running from Manhattan to Brooklyn, then we may see the 53rd St. Tunnel come back up. I expect that the 53rd St. tunnel was a lower priority because the MTA assumed they could get the Broadway Line running across the Manhattan Bridge quickly... but that isn't happening for some reason.

I would really like to know why trains are not running down Broadway and not running along the south side of the Manhattan Bridge.

 

[Nathanael]

Yow. There has got to be something wrong with the signals or something on the Broadway Line in Manhattan. It looks from the service announcements as if the Q is running straight through from Brooklyn to 34th St without stopping?!?

Anyway, I'm getting deeply distracted from Amtrak topics, should probably take this to another forum...

 

[AlanB]

Correct, the Q is now running across the bridge as of 7 PM tonight and it is going to Astoria, not 34th Street.

 

[pennyk]

Yeah I am definitely moving to Florida in a year or two.

(null)

when you move here, please do not bring any major storms with you.

 

[AlanB]

Correct, the Q is now running across the bridge as of 7 PM tonight and it is going to Astoria, not 34th Street.

And now the N is reportedly going over the bridge too!

 

[NE933]

A major weekness of the 63rd st tunnel where it joins with the Queens blvd line is that sharp curve that forces F trains to slow the entire express operation. Except for geological ground conditions I don't know about that prevented the boring of more gradual radius, there are few good reasons the surveyors chose the hard turn required to align up to Queens blvd orientation.

It was the M, detoured over the F, that stopped after leaving Roosevelt Island. The were several "precursor" stops before along with walking speed movement.

In reading this thread i am learning and pondering over just how bad things, rail and much much more, were hit. Disasters force us to confront the many weaknesses, and strengths, of life.

 

[AlanB]

A major weekness of the 63rd st tunnel where it joins with the Queens blvd line is that sharp curve that forces F trains to slow the entire express operation. Except for geological ground conditions I don't know about that prevented the boring of more gradual radius, there are few good reasons the surveyors chose the hard turn required to align up to Queens blvd orientation.

Building basements along with the East Side Access tunnel directly underneath prevented a more gradual turn. Can't drive the subway through the basement of a building, it has to stay under the street. Not to mention the fact that there was only about 3 blocks between the end of the station at Queens-Bridge and the Queens Blvd line.

If one is riding a bike or driving car, that's plenty of room for a turn. For a 10 car subway train moving at 40 MPH, that's not nearly enough room for the radius that would needed. And again they couldn't even start the turn that early, as it would have required taking a building, maybe even several buildings.

Thankfully they didn't need a full 90 degree turn there either as Northern Blvd where the Queens Blvd line runs under at this point is at a bit of angle to 41st Avenue which the F line runs under.

 

[AlanB]

And on the heals of that, I can now report that the A train is running from 168th Street through the tunnel to Brooklyn and all the way to Lefferts Blvd. Additionally they've restored the E train between Jamaica & World Trade. The C remains suspended for now.

No word on whether the M is still running out to Jamaica or if it has returned to its normal terminus at 71st/Continental.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Alan, are you listening to the scanner even as you sleep to keep up with all this? Or have you not had any sleep in the past week?

 

[PRR 60]

...

No word on whether the M is still running out to Jamaica or if it has returned to its normal terminus at 71st/Continental.

Running the full route.

 

[AlanB]

Alan, are you listening to the scanner even as you sleep to keep up with all this? Or have you not had any sleep in the past week?

Actually for the past few days, no. Initially I was listening to the scanner. But once they restored my local line I stopped. Just pulling this info from the MTA's website.

 

[AlanB]

...

No word on whether the M is still running out to Jamaica or if it has returned to its normal terminus at 71st/Continental.

Running the full route.

Actually, No, it's not as of 5AM this morning.

Service Change Posted: 11/05/2012 4:44AM
As of 5:00am, Nov 5, M trains will operate between 71 Avenue Station and Metropolitan Avenue Station.

 

[PRR 60]

...

No word on whether the M is still running out to Jamaica or if it has returned to its normal terminus at 71st/Continental.

Running the full route.

Actually, No, it's not as of 5AM this morning.

Service Change Posted: 11/05/2012 4:44AM
As of 5:00am, Nov 5, M trains will operate between 71 Avenue Station and Metropolitan Avenue Station.

Interesting. The Service Recovery Map this morning shows the entire route as in service.

Map

 

[AlanB]

Interesting. The Service Recovery Map this morning shows the entire route as in service.

Map

Bill,

My friend, did you short out one too many power line? :lol: Or did you simply misunderstand the original question? :unsure:

That map shows the E train running to Jamaica Center and the M terminating at 71st. :unsure:

 

[jis]

Alan, yesterday on the eastbound Acela we used Track three wrong track to get into Penn Station from the east. I guess track 2 may not be up yet, or was not last night. Interestingly, in the morning we went out track 3 eastbound, not track 1. But that may have been because a relatively high platform track was used.