Hurricane Sandy and Amtrak.

[AlanB]

Alan, yesterday on the eastbound Acela we used Track three wrong track to get into Penn Station from the east. I guess track 2 may not be up yet, or was not last night. Interestingly, in the morning we went out track 3 eastbound, not track 1. But that may have been because a relatively high platform track was used.

Jishnu,

Yeah, I saw your other post on that. I'm still not sure what the status of the tunnels actually is. Yesterday for a few hours, the MTA website was blaming Amtrak for their limited service because 2 tunnels were still out. Yet, I had seen something at one time from another source that said Amtrak had restored at least 1 of the 2 tunnels flooded, presumably the Line 4 tunnel which should have taken less water.

So I'm not real sure just what's happening there. I'll be on the #7 later today, so maybe I'll get lucky and see what is/isn't moving.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

With all this talk of the NYC subway system, I noticed, and bought for $6.00 at a local used bookstore, a book entitled "Uptown, Downtown A Trip Through Time on New York's Subways" By Stan Fischler, which was put out in 1976. Though dated, and I've just glanced at it so far, it looks to be a good read.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

WNBC is reporting NJT has suspended service on the North Jersey Coast Line Monday morning because too many riders are fighting for train space. Indeed it sounds like it will be quite some time before mass transit is back to normal or near normal in the Tri State.

 

[trainman74]

With all this talk of the NYC subway system, I noticed, and bought for $6.00 at a local used bookstore, a book entitled "Uptown, Downtown A Trip Through Time on New York's Subways" By Stan Fischler, which was put out in 1976. Though dated, and I've just glanced at it so far, it looks to be a good read.

An updated/revised version of that book came out in 2000 under the title The Subway: A Trip Through Time on New York's Rapid Transit.

 

[jis]

WNBC is reporting NJT has suspended service on the North Jersey Coast Line Monday morning because too many riders are fighting for train space. Indeed it sounds like it will be quite some time before mass transit is back to normal or near normal in the Tri State.

Typical NJTransit! They always get extremely taken aback when too many people want to use their trains inspite of all their attempts to subtly discourage such behavior.

So this time their solution was to tell everyone to drive to Metropark. Now of course they will be taken aback when too many people show up there.

Juuust kidding

You should have seen their astonishment when they started Midtown Direct and got swamped in no time.

 

[Nathanael]

At least Amtrak doesn't act surprised when people want to ride its trains. It's true, NJ Transit really does act surprised!

There can be odd lack of common sense in terms of underestimating demand, sometimes; I attribute it to people brought up in the 1950s who still have trouble believing that people really want to ride trains. LIRR acts surprised when people want to reverse commute, or to go to the intermediate stations like East New York within the City Terminal Zone. LA Metro acted surprised when people used the Red Line and the Expo Line to get from the San Fernando Valley to Culver City. In Chicago, Metra still seems perplexed by the number of people who want to catch the train in Cook County or even Chicago. ("We're here for commuters from the collar counties!") The CTA actually thought that a reduction from four tracks to 2 would be considered acceptable on their busiest line (commuters told them no). VIA seems surprised at the vehement opposition to their destruction of service to Southwest Ontario -- and is claiming 'low ridership' without actually having any ridership numbers. (Though that case may just be deliberate fraud for political purposes.)

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Just read that Delaware is sending 20 DART busses to NJ to help out NJT.

 

[CHamilton]

Limited PATH Service Resuming Tomorrow

Limited PATH train service will be reinstated Tuesday between Journal Square in Jersey City and 33rd Street in Manhattan, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said.

The authority said that fares would be waived on Tuesday. Stops will not be made at Christopher and 9th Streets, and disabled passengers will only have access to platforms at Journal Square and 33rd Street.

PATH service is not being restored yet at Newark Penn Station, Hoboken, Exchange Place or the World Trade Center.

 

[AlanB]

Alan, yesterday on the eastbound Acela we used Track three wrong track to get into Penn Station from the east. I guess track 2 may not be up yet, or was not last night. Interestingly, in the morning we went out track 3 eastbound, not track 1. But that may have been because a relatively high platform track was used.

So I'm not real sure just what's happening there. I'll be on the #7 later today, so maybe I'll get lucky and see what is/isn't moving.

So I went by today to look things over. The Line 2 tunnel, normal Amtrak inbound, appears to still be out of service. If they're pumping it, then they're pumping from a point further west and closer to the East River. And the rails are shiny indicating that something has run down that tunnel.

However, during the short time that I was in the area, I did watch 1 LIRR train enter the Line 4 tunnel (normal LIRR inbound) and I saw one Amtrak train from Boston enter the Line 4 tunnel. Additionally, as I walked along the track/yard area on the local street, I could see that they were sending trains out of the yard using the rarely used lead from the yard to the Line 4 tunnel.

Normally they stack trains up on two yard leads that go to the Line 2 tunnel. So the lack of trains there and the one train waiting on the lead to the Line 4 tunnel leads me to believe that Line 2 is still down and they're running on 3 tunnels.

Hopefully this means that the LIRR will restore some more trains starting tomorrow with 3 tunnels in use.

 

[AlanB]

And during my travels today, I took this shot of a very unusual situation; a virtually empty Sunnyside yard.

Normally at 3:30 PM on a weekday just about every track would have 1 or more trains sitting on it. Heck, even on a weekend there is usually more trains in this yard.

To have zero NJT trains in Sunnyside is unheard of normally.

 

[PRR 60]

A posting at Trainorders states that East River Lines 1 and 2 are still flooded, as is the westbound (upriver) tube of the North (Hudson) River tunnels. The absence of Lines 1 and 2 is forcing Amtrak to use NYP high-side tracks (17-21) in order to access Sunnyside through 3 and 4, leaving the low side for NJT and any Amtrak service that can turn in the station (Keystones). Empire Service trains, which can only use low-side tracks at NYP, cannot access Sunnyside (which explains the shuttle service between NYP and ALB for the Lake Shore).

Amtrak expects to reopen East River Line 2 next, followed by the second North River tunnel. The signal system in the East River tunnels was badly damaged. They are running absolute block through the tunnels which cuts capacity by 50%.

 

[AlanB]

A posting at Trainorders states that East River Lines 1 and 2 are still flooded, as is the westbound (upriver) tube of the North (Hudson) River tunnels. The absence of Lines 1 and 2 is forcing Amtrak to use NYP high-side tracks (17-21) in order to access Sunnyside through 3 and 4, leaving the low side for NJT and any Amtrak service that can turn in the station (Keystones). Empire Service trains, which can only use low-side tracks at NYP, cannot access Sunnyside (which explains the shuttle service between NYP and ALB for the Lake Shore).

Amtrak expects to reopen East River Line 2 next, followed by the second North River tunnel. The signal system in the East River tunnels was badly damaged. They are running absolute block through the tunnels which cuts capacity by 50%.

Bill,

I appreciate the fact that you are simply relaying info found elsewhere.

However, that doesn't make sense IMHO. The water that flooded the Line 2 tunnel clearly came from the Queens side of the river, as shown by the MTA's video. The Line 1 portal however is no where near the Line 2 portal. And before the water could start pouring into the Line 1 tunnel, it would first have to start flowing into the Line 4 tunnel, as that portal is closer to the river and the the Line 2 portal. Additionally, if the Line 1 portal were to start flooding, then the Line 3 portal would also be taking on water, as those two portals are side by side.

Here's the bird's eye view of the Line 2 portal. This is the normal inbound Amtrak tunnel and the portal closest to the river and within the Zone 1 flood area. If you now roll the picture slowly to the left and angling slightly down, such that the image is traveling to the right, as you reach the end of the canopy for the LIRR Hunterspoint Station, you'll find the Line 4 portal. This is the normal LIRR inbound tunnel, and it lies just barely within the Zone 2 flood area. At this point the Line 1 & Line 3 tunnels are still underground.

If one continues moving a bit further, you'll find the portals to the Line 1 & Line 3 tunnels, which again are side by side with the Line 1 portal closer to the bottom of the picture. Line 1 would be the normal outbound Amtrak tunnel, while Line 3 is the LIRR's and both lie within the Zone 2 flood plain, and again they're further in to the Zone 2 flood plain and farther from where the tidal surge was approaching from than the Line 4 tunnel.

So that post simply doesn't make any sense to me.

However, as of today it is clearly all academic, as again, I watched trains entering the Line 4 tunnel, including Amtrak trains from Boston & the yard, and I saw LIRR trains coming out of Line 3 and an Acela come out of Line 1 heading for the yard. The only tunnel that appeared to me to be still out of use, due to no trains entering/exiting and the service pattern for Amtrak, is the Line 2 tunnel.

 

[AlanB]

The Monday update from Amtrak:

AMTRAK NORTHEAST CORRIDOR SERVICE RESTORATION PLAN FOR TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 6 AND WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 7
Monday, November 5, 2012

4:00 ET

On Tuesday, Nov. 6 and Wednesday, Nov. 7, Amtrak will continue to provide modified Acela Express and Northeast Regional service on the Northeast Corridor between Boston - New York City - Washington, D.C. as well as on the Empire Service operating between New York City and Albany-Rensselaer.

Amtrak services to and from New York City are subject to delay while repairs from Hurricane Sandy continue. To avoid the possibility of long lines at ticket offices and sold-out trains, passengers should make reservations and payment in advance through Amtrak.com, through the Amtrak app on a smartphone or by calling 800-USA-RAIL.

This Service Alert should be considered in effect through Wednesday, Nov. 7, though updates will be posted as necessary.

Other operating plans for Nov. 6 and Nov. 7:

All long distance trains will operate normally to/from New York City. Scheduling exceptions are as follow: the Lake Shore Limited (Chicago-Boston) and the Maple Leaf (New York - Toronto, Canada) will have separate connecting train service available for points south of Albany-Rensselaer. Keystone Service will only operate between Harrisburg, Penn. and Philadelphia, with the exception of Trains 656 and 639. The Ethan Allen Express will operate normally between New York City and Rutland, Vt., however, the northbound train may depart 30 minutes late.

Passengers who have paid but choose not to travel due to this service disruption can receive a refund or a voucher for future travel. Some reservations booked online can be modified or canceled on Amtrak.com or by using the free Amtrak mobile app.

Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. This information is correct as of the above time and date. Information is subject to change as conditions warrant. Passengers are encouraged to call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com/alerts for Service Alerts and Passenger Notices. Schedule information and train status updates are available at the Amtrak.com home page.

The full press release can be found here.

 

[greatcats]

For what this might be worth, my friend and I travelled from Washington to Boston today on Train 86, leaving DC at 8:40 am. It was a totally uneventful journey from a passenger standpoint and we arrived Boston six minutes early!

 

[AlanB]

WNBC is reporting NJT has suspended service on the North Jersey Coast Line Monday morning because too many riders are fighting for train space. Indeed it sounds like it will be quite some time before mass transit is back to normal or near normal in the Tri State.

Typical NJTransit! They always get extremely taken aback when too many people want to use their trains inspite of all their attempts to subtly discourage such behavior.

One report that I just found suggests that the very first train to leave Woodbridge was a 12 car train carrying 1,200 passengers or about 100 pax per car. Of course the unknown factor in this is whether or not it was a single level or multi-level train

Of course the NYC subway is well known for packing far more than 100 into a subway car.

 

[CHamilton]

New Jersey Transit’s Damaged Rail Cars Won’t Be Easy to Replace

Nov. 5 (Bloomberg) -- On top of having to fix damaged tracks and an operations center ruined by floodwaters, New Jersey Transit’s biggest obstacle to restoring full service for 276,000 daily rail commuters may be finding cars and engines.

The Newark-based agency had 257 rail cars and 65 engines -- 23 percent and 35 percent of its totals, respectively -- damaged or ruined by Atlantic superstorm Sandy, Nancy Snyder, a spokeswoman, said. The agency hasn’t determined how many, if any, can be repaired, she said.

New equipment won’t be a quick solution, as about 330 unionized production workers went on strike Nov. 1 at the Bombardier Inc. factory in La Pocatiere, Quebec, that builds the shells for the agency’s cars.

 

[PRR 60]

As of Tuesday morning, the status at NYP remains unchanged. Of the four East River tunnels, the two northernmost (Lines 3 and 4) are in service. The two southernmost (Lines 1 and 2) remain out of service.

The continued outage of Lines 1 and 2 limit capacity, and the interlocking located at the east end of NYP only has connections from station tracks 14 and higher to Lines 3 and 4. Since all Amtrak trains except the Keystones are single-ended and need access to and from the east for either through service or access to Sunnyside Yard, Amtrak can only use station tracks 14, 15 and 16 for most service. This limitation eliminates direct access to Sunnyside Yard by Empire Service trains coming off the West Side line. The West Side line enters the Penn Station track complex at a point where access to Lines 3 and 4 to the east cannot be reached without a reversing move. That is why the Lake Shore Limited is running a stub train from Albany to NYP. The regular Lake Shore consist is too long for the reversing move at NYP.

Amtrak "hopes" to get the Line 2 tunnel open today. When that happens (today or whenever), the current limitation of usable tracks to the east will be eliminated, although signal damage will limit capacity.

Of the two North (Hudson) River tunnels, only the southernmost is open. The Northernmost tunnel remains out of service. This greatly reduces the capacity under the Hudson to what is effectively weekend service. The second North River Tunnel is expected to reopen sometime after the Line 2 East River tunnel is open.

NYP is open, but it is a mess.

 

[jis]

Wait! If Line 1 is out of service as PRR60 claims, how did AlanB see an Acela come out of the Line 1 tunnel.

PRR are you just repeating what abyler wrote on trainorders? Or do you have another independant source? I might add that in my experience abyler is not necessarily the most reliable source.

 

[PRR 60]

Wait! If Line 1 is out of service as PRR60 claims, how did AlanB see an Acela come out of the Line 1 tunnel.

PRR are you just repeating what abyler wrote on trainorders? Or do you have another independant source? I might add that in my experience abyler is not necessarily the most reliable source.

No, I am not relying solely on the TO posting. I have no explanation for the Acela observed coming out of the Line1 tunnel, but if Line 1 was open, why would Amtrak still be sending the Lake Shore consist to Boston? With Line 1 open, the Lake Shore could operate normally through NYP and on to Sunnyside.

I'll stand by my info as being accurate, and that is why I posted it. However, am not going to argue with anyone who feels they have better information. It really does not matter that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[jis]

So yours is then a surmise based on a TO posting and a few observed facts. Fair enough. However reading your message I got the impression that you were actually basing it on more than that. So I was just asking for clarification. Thanks for prviding it.

I am still curious though about how water got into tunnel 1. It could not have got through the Queens portal. One possibility of course is that water flowing through tunnel 2 entered tunnel 1 through the New York end since tunnels 1 and 2 open up in the same cavern at the New York end.

 

[PRR 60]

From Newsday, Tuesday 11/6/12:

The LIRR was running about 40 to 45 percent of the trains it would normally run, because it has access to only two of the four East River tunnels for rail traffic into Penn Station, (LIRR spokesman Salvatore) Arena said Tuesday morning. The other two were flooded during last week's storm.

According to this report, there were only two of four tunnels open this morning.

Newsday

 

[AlanB]

So yours is then a surmise based on a TO posting and a few observed facts. Fair enough. However reading your message I got the impression that you were actually basing it on more than that. So I was just asking for clarification. Thanks for prviding it.

Jishnu, I think that Bill is working on a bit more than a surmise. But I can't explain the obvious disconnect between what I saw and what he's getting.

I am still curious though about how water got into tunnel 1. It could not have got through the Queens portal. One possibility of course is that water flowing through tunnel 2 entered tunnel 1 through the New York end since tunnels 1 and 2 open up in the same cavern at the New York end.

I too agree, I don't understand this It really doesn't make sense at all. And in fact, I'd think that if what you're suggesting had happened, then I think that the flooding would have taken out more of Penn in the process.

Maybe there is some connecting emergency passage between the Line 1 & Line 2 tunnels that allowed the water to flow from one to the other?

 

[PRR 60]

So yours is then a surmise based on a TO posting and a few observed facts. Fair enough. However reading your message I got the impression that you were actually basing it on more than that. So I was just asking for clarification. Thanks for prviding it.

I am still curious though about how water got into tunnel 1. It could not have got through the Queens portal. One possibility of course is that water flowing through tunnel 2 entered tunnel 1 through the New York end since tunnels 1 and 2 open up in the same cavern at the New York end.

That is not exactly what I said. I said that I was not solely relying on the TO post, and I am not. However, it is more than the TO post and a few observed facts. I only used the irregular operation as a point of argument since running the LSL consist to Boston would not be necessary if three tunnels were open. Add that to the Newsday article above that quotes the LIRR as stating there are only two tunnels open (as of this morning), and I feel pretty confident in my post. Since there is general agreement that 3 and 4 are open, that leaves 1 and 2 as closed. That would match the information I have.

As for water ingress points to the tunnels, I don't think the portals are the only possible entrances. There at least used to be vertical shafts located on each side of the East River that were originally used for construction access. They may now be emergency exit shafts and ventilation shafts. If so, those could have taken in the water. Penn Station is the high point of the profile, so it is even possible that water coming from the LIRR yard flowed through Penn and down into the tunnels. Otherwise, I don't have a clue. The fact (as I believe it) is that the tunnels were flooded, so the water got in there somehow.

 

[jis]

From Newsday, Tuesday 11/6/12:

The LIRR was running about 40 to 45 percent of the trains it would normally run, because it has access to only two of the four East River tunnels for rail traffic into Penn Station, (LIRR spokesman Salvatore) Arena said Tuesday morning. The other two were flooded during last week's storm.

According to this report, there were only two of four tunnels open this morning.

Newsday

Good additional data point. The mystery compounds though. So if 4 was not flooded that means water did not rise that far. So my conjecture of 1 flooding from the New York end due to inflow through 2 all the way to the New York end seems to be come a more credible conjecture, since I don't believe 1 could have flooded from the Queens end since 3 did not, as 1 and 3 enter through the same cut at the Queens end.

The other possibillity is water getting in through fire escape shafts.

 

[jis]

I am still curious though about how water got into tunnel 1. It could not have got through the Queens portal. One possibility of course is that water flowing through tunnel 2 entered tunnel 1 through the New York end since tunnels 1 and 2 open up in the same cavern at the New York end.

I too agree, I don't understand this It really doesn't make sense at all. And in fact, I'd think that if what you're suggesting had happened, then I think that the flooding would have taken out more of Penn in the process.

Actually, not necessarily, because where 1 and 2 open up into the common three track wide tunnel, it is at a considerably lower level than the base level of the tracks in Penn Station. So conceivabley water could have flowed in through 2 and out rhough 1, and this would continue that way until 1 also filled up and the net water level rose further to then inundate other parts of Penn Station.

Maybe there is some connecting emergency passage between the Line 1 & Line 2 tunnels that allowed the water to flow from one to the other?

None that I am aware of.

But the other possibility of some wwater getting in through one of the escape shafts still remains.