Bedroom Pricing increasing everywhere!!!!!!&#3

[Ryan]

I am not advocating that Amtrak lower prices, although as the equipment ages, the accomodations do deteriorate over time, so the consumer gets less for their money. I just believe that prices are already high enough and that raising them any higher will hurt both the consumer and the railroad. Yes Amtak is subsidized by the taxpapers but with all the jobs that Amtrak has created to run and maintain it, there is a giant return to the federal government in incomes taxes from their employees. Say they pay their SCA's $800 per week, about $160 goes back in taxes. Therefore on the balance sheet, the labor rates are calculated at a before tax rate, never mentioning who receives the income taxes. The statement may not show it but Amtrak may actually be making momey. Now figure in all the people that need to be employed by the companies that supply the food, sanitation services, fuel, uniforms,etc. These jobs that were created especially to support income tax are income tax revenue streams for the federal government as well. Finally take a look at the Amtrak NE corridor run. They recently lowered prices and now every train is full or nearly full. On this route and to the cities that they serve, Amtrak has more passenger traffic than the airlines do.

Amtrak should make money, not lose money, or at least break even.

Nobody expects I-10 to "break even" so why should they expect Amtrak to? Does DB or JR break even? How about our airports, have they broken even? Why should Amtrak be held to a standard the rest of our infrastructure isn't held to? And, honestly, no budget of ours has any hope of breaking even until the war is over.

I think that we'd all agree on the fact that Amtrak should endeavor to bring in as much revenue as possible, regardless if that results in a profit, loss or perfect breakeven. While that's an entertaining discussion on it's own, I think that it's a separate issue from a discussion on how to best maximize revenue.

 

[Guest]

Finally take a look at the Amtrak NE corridor run. They recently lowered prices and now every train is full or nearly full. On this route and to the cities that they serve, Amtrak has more passenger traffic than the airlines do.

Comparing coach to sleeper/first class is apples and oranges.

 

[sunchaser]

I am not advocating that Amtrak lower prices, although as the equipment ages, the accomodations do deteriorate over time, so the consumer gets less for their money. I just believe that prices are already high enough and that raising them any higher will hurt both the consumer and the railroad. Yes Amtak is subsidized by the taxpapers but with all the jobs that Amtrak has created to run and maintain it, there is a giant return to the federal government in incomes taxes from their employees. Say they pay their SCA's $800 per week, about $160 goes back in taxes. Therefore on the balance sheet, the labor rates are calculated at a before tax rate, never mentioning who receives the income taxes. The statement may not show it but Amtrak may actually be making momey. Now figure in all the people that need to be employed by the companies that supply the food, sanitation services, fuel, uniforms,etc. These jobs that were created especially to support income tax are income tax revenue streams for the federal government as well. Finally take a look at the Amtrak NE corridor run. They recently lowered prices and now every train is full or nearly full. On this route and to the cities that they serve, Amtrak has more passenger traffic than the airlines do.

Amtrak should make money, not lose money, or at least break even.

Nobody expects I-10 to "break even" so why should they expect Amtrak to? Does DB or JR break even? How about our airports, have they broken even? Why should Amtrak be held to a standard the rest of our infrastructure isn't held to? And, honestly, no budget of ours has any hope of breaking even until the war is over.

I think that we'd all agree on the fact that Amtrak should endeavor to bring in as much revenue as possible, regardless if that results in a profit, loss or perfect breakeven. While that's an entertaining discussion on it's own, I think that it's a separate issue from a discussion on how to best maximize revenue.

:lol: I'm glad you are entertained! :lol:

Want more revenue?

Raise the prices, add more sleepers, raise the prices, add more runs, add new routes!!!

In my limited times of booking, & from this board, there are a few ways to avoid paying 'too much'.

Book at non peak, non holiday time periods.

Book early, if you want a bedroom & it's too much, book a roomette.

Watch for specials & sales.

If you have booked a roomette & wanted a bedroom, check online regularly for a better deal.

You can also wait & attempt to do an onboard upgrade for a sleeper, which is not a guarantee.

You can buy a grundle of AGR points & use them.

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Absolutely, as I have said before - "all it takes is a computer and an internet connection and anyone can be an instant expert"

I am not an instant expert. I am a permanent expert.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

March is the beginning of the busy spring break season when many of us northerners head to the southwest for school breaks.

When I was a student, I would more likely be checking out possible baggage car prices, than bedroom prices.

 

[haolerider]

Absolutely, as I have said before - "all it takes is a computer and an internet connection and anyone can be an instant expert"

I am not an instant expert. I am a permanent expert.

Well Done!

By the way, what is the Trails to Rails Program?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

March is the beginning of the busy spring break season when many of us northerners head to the southwest for school breaks.

When I was a student, I would more likely be checking out possible baggage car prices, than bedroom prices.

Same here. There were no $500 sleeper tickets in my student years. Maybe he's referring to Alaskans looking for a place to spend their drilling license kick-back checks?

 

[Ryan]

 

[GG-1]

I think that we'd all agree on the fact that Amtrak should endeavor to bring in as much revenue as possible, regardless if that results in a profit, loss or perfect breakeven. While that's an entertaining discussion on it's own, I think that it's a separate issue from a discussion on how to best maximize revenue.

Aloha

Some time ago I was in discussions with a traveling show and rates. While I no longer remember the exact numbers the jist was something like an increase in the price of tickets of 7% leads to a drop in revenue of 10%. Much better to increase sales, some way, until the theaters are at capacity.

 

[Big Iron]

March is the beginning of the busy spring break season when many of us northerners head to the southwest for school breaks.

When I was a student, I would more likely be checking out possible baggage car prices, than bedroom prices.

Same here. There were no $500 sleeper tickets in my student years. Maybe he's referring to Alaskans looking for a place to spend their drilling license kick-back checks?

I liked the $33.00 slumbercoach fares back in the 80's.

 

[dlagrua]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

 

[Trogdor]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

I think, what you meant to say with your last line was, "someone else will take the room instead of me." Because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the sleepers are going out largely full.

So, obviously somebody doesn't think it's price gouging. So, have fun on the road. Keep that money in your pocket. Amtrak will just sell the room to someone else. They're not going to give you a discount because you're special.

 

[Guest]

March is the beginning of the busy spring break season when many of us northerners head to the southwest for school breaks.

When I was a student, I would more likely be checking out possible baggage car prices, than bedroom prices.

Same here. There were no $500 sleeper tickets in my student years. Maybe he's referring to Alaskans looking for a place to spend their drilling license kick-back checks?

I wouldn't let me elementary student go baggage . . . I would pay for them to go with me in a sleeper.

 

[zephyr17]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

Completely your decision. I do the same thing -- I love riding trains, but it has to be within a certain price range, and even then other modes are almost always cheaper than an Amtrak sleeper. For me, the value proposition is not for the transportation alone. With that said, there are others that will pay more, and if Amtrak can capture that revenue, more power to them. If I'll only buy a room for $250, but they can sell it to someone else at $500, why shouldn't they? I've seen fares fluctuate -- that is what yield management is all about, maximizing the yield. It isn't stuck in the high range and won't stay there if they have a car full of unbooked high-bucket rooms. Some of those rooms will then become low-bucket rooms.

Who they think they are is a business, or they try to be. They are trying to maximize the revenue for their product, as any prudent business should. We bash Amtrak management a lot here, should we bash them for trying to maximize revenue, which on any rational basis they should be doing?

It's a free market. We are free to buy their product at the price offered or not. They are entitled to charge what the market will bear.

 

[AlanB]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

Well it would appear that many people don't agree with you on this matter. Ridership in sleepers for the first 6 months of this year is up more than 20,000 or 7.4%. Revenue from sleepers is up about $1.3 million or 1.9%.

I'm personally not thrilled either to have to pay more, but it does appear that people are indeed willing to do so. And with Congress and other critics demanding that Amtrak do better, if sleepers are selling for higher prices, Amtrak is going to sell them for higher prices. People clearly are not being driven away by the prices.

 

[GaSteve]

I liked the $33.00 slumbercoach fares back in the 80's.

Hear , hear ! I did that quite a few times, especially on the Crescent while I was relocating from Philly to Atlanta.

 

[sunchaser]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

I think, what you meant to say with your last line was, "someone else will take the room instead of me." Because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the sleepers are going out largely full.

So, obviously somebody doesn't think it's price gouging. So, have fun on the road. Keep that money in your pocket. Amtrak will just sell the room to someone else. They're not going to give you a discount because you're special.

I did not mean Amtrak is the only travel choice. It's pretty much the only train choice.

So it still comes down to the value of the sleeper. How much is it worth to you? I certainly can't afford large price hikes for travel anymore than anyone else, so I will continue to do the price dance, checking multiple dates, etc.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Quick, everyone panic. Dear lord, odd price trends happen all the time. Stop worrying your little heads off. You're right, pricing things only in the highest bucket will drive off riders, I think. Ok, then Amtrak will lower the prices. Problem solved.

Amtrak won't keep this up if nobody buys the damned things. Plain and simple.

 

[sechs]

Sounds like another reason to join AGR. Sleepers always cost the same number of points there....

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Sounds like another reason to join AGR. Sleepers always cost the same number of points there....

providing they give you a sleeper on the right train on the right day in the right direction.

 

[dlagrua]

Quick, everyone panic. Dear lord, odd price trends happen all the time. Stop worrying your little heads off. You're right, pricing things only in the highest bucket will drive off riders, I think. Ok, then Amtrak will lower the prices. Problem solved.
Amtrak won't keep this up if nobody buys the damned things. Plain and simple.

In the final analysis I guess that's the bottom line. Give us your price and we will see if it makes sense to us.

I differ with a few posters views here in that I don't view Amtrak passengers as the same group who ride the Orient express for the luxury and unique experience, but as everyday people with limited budgets who prefer this form of transportation and ride as a convenience. The AT is probably the prime example of this, where seniors, the elderly, college students, and middle class travelers go South with their car. Even in the sleeepers I didn't see too many people that fit the description of affluent. A good percentage of passengers had gray or white hair!

I believe that it is in Amtraks best interest to serve their core market and not try to run it, thinking that they are the Orient Express.

 

[AlanB]

Quick, everyone panic. Dear lord, odd price trends happen all the time. Stop worrying your little heads off. You're right, pricing things only in the highest bucket will drive off riders, I think. Ok, then Amtrak will lower the prices. Problem solved.
Amtrak won't keep this up if nobody buys the damned things. Plain and simple.

In the final analysis I guess that's the bottom line. Give us your price and we will see if it makes sense to us.

I differ with a few posters views here in that I don't view Amtrak passengers as the same group who ride the Orient express for the luxury and unique experience, but as everyday people with limited budgets who prefer this form of transportation and ride as a convenience. The AT is probably the prime example of this, where seniors, the elderly, college students, and middle class travelers go South with their car. Even in the sleeepers I didn't see too many people that fit the description of affluent. A good percentage of passengers had gray or white hair!

I believe that it is in Amtraks best interest to serve their core market and not try to run it, thinking that they are the Orient Express.

And yet Amtrak's Auto Train does aspire to be more like that Orient Express. It's the flagship train on the East Coast and its Bedroom prices are comparable with the other LD's. In fact, the AT brings in just as much revenue with its sleepers as does the Empire Builder. Granted the Auto Train for part of the year runs with twice as many sleepers, other times with 5, but then the AT is a one night ride while the EB is a two night ride.

 

[oldtimer]

The AT is probably the prime example of this, where seniors, the elderly, college students, and middle class travelers go South with their car. Even in the sleeepers I didn't see too many people that fit the description of affluent. A good percentage of passengers had gray or white hair!

Take it easy with that remark on hair color, as mine is flesh tone!

:lol:

 

[zephyr17]

Quick, everyone panic. Dear lord, odd price trends happen all the time. Stop worrying your little heads off. You're right, pricing things only in the highest bucket will drive off riders, I think. Ok, then Amtrak will lower the prices. Problem solved.
Amtrak won't keep this up if nobody buys the damned things. Plain and simple.

In the final analysis I guess that's the bottom line. Give us your price and we will see if it makes sense to us.

I differ with a few posters views here in that I don't view Amtrak passengers as the same group who ride the Orient express for the luxury and unique experience, but as everyday people with limited budgets who prefer this form of transportation and ride as a convenience. The AT is probably the prime example of this, where seniors, the elderly, college students, and middle class travelers go South with their car. Even in the sleeepers I didn't see too many people that fit the description of affluent. A good percentage of passengers had gray or white hair!

I believe that it is in Amtraks best interest to serve their core market and not try to run it, thinking that they are the Orient Express.

Nobody is going to mistake Amtrak for a luxury rail cruise. Not even Amtrak. I don't think they are going for that market. I agree, the folks I see in Amtrak sleepers generally solidly middle class, skewing older.

But their pricing model appears to be working most of the time with their market. Sleepers are running with a pretty high load factor, although that is not scientific, just my own observations, and anecdotal evidence. It would be interesting to see real data on that.

People are paying to ride sleepers at the price offered. Why should they sell them for less? If service standards slip, it will drive their customers away (it already happened when timekeeping on 11/14 was horrendous a couple of years ago) and will have to sell for cheaper rates. I am content to let the market decide.

 

[AlanB]

But their pricing model appears to be working most of the time with their market. Sleepers are running with a pretty high load factor, although that is not scientific, just my own observations, and anecdotal evidence. It would be interesting to see real data on that.

I don't have any data that shows what occupancy percentages were, although perhaps if I have some time later today I could calculate some based upon the numbers that I have and knowing how many sleepers per train there are. However, here are the ridership numbers for the last 7 years that show sleeper occupancy is indeed going ever higher, despite the higher prices. And of course we all know that on many trains it's impossible to book a sleeper at certain times of the year.

Note: This data is presented in Amtrak's fiscal year format, that being from October to September. So for example the first year of 2003 represents October 2002 through September 2003.

2003 - 611,308

2004 - 600,021

2005 - 605,010

2006 - 580,149

2007 - 591,023

2008 - 622,243

Note the drop in sleepers occupancy between 2003 & 2004 was due to the loss of several sleepers in various wrecks during that period. Back before all the wrecks including the big one on the AT, Amtrak had 175 sleepers, plus all trains still had dorm cars. Today there are only 160 sleepers listed as active, and no dorm cars on the single level trains which means that revenue rooms are lost to the crew. Note: I didn't include the Superliner Trans/Dorms in those counts, there are 41 of those cars in service both in 2003 and today. Most trains in 2003 did not sell rooms in the Trans/Dorm, whereas most do sell rooms today.

And the drop in sleepers between 2005 & 2006 was due to the cutting of the Three Rivers and its Heritage sleepers, and the loss of the Sunset east due to Katrina. Take out those anomalies and ridership has continued to increase over the years.