AGR Redemption Guidelines

[PRR 60]

I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.

Not a she. A he, at least most of the time.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

To me it makes it very clear each Zone you travel through, even if you come back to it is treated as a separate "billable" Zone; so for example the Columbus Loophole would be billed as a 3 Zone Reward. No problems there, as that is what I was charged when I took that run 3 years ago.

Now, it pays to do your homework before getting on the phone with AGR and make sure everything looks alright in ARROW. There are still some quirks in the system regarding connections you may need to explore. For example if I put in FTW as my endpoint rather than NOR that sometimes opens up more route options even though the connection to the Heartland Flyer from the Texas Eagles at FTW is a legal one.

 

[crescent2]

The "circle route" rule seems very clearly stated to me, too, although I understand why it's not a popular rule.

I'm unclear about the "all sleepers" and "<23.5 hour layovers" rules/exceptions. Some very logical, direct routes don't come up in Arrow unless you use Multicity, but one or both of these rules seem to apply to them imo. But no one seems to know for sure.

 

[fairviewroad]

The issue goes beyond a few isolated city pairs,

I hear you, but it has less to do with the sheer number of unbookable city pairs and more to do with the

type of unbookable city pairs. Amtrak justifiably is more concerned with city pairs that are more likely

to be the subject of passenger demand.

Yeah, I don't really get why there are city pairs that are otherwise valid but not programmed into the booking

system. After all, there are a finite number of city pairs and a finite number of trains. And Amtrak schedules,

particularly LD trains, rarely change significantly, so you could basically program in all the city pairs once and

make changes only when the rare schedule change demands it. But, I'm not an IT person so I don't know

what all's involved.

 

[fairviewroad]

They are ALL Equally Important to Amtraks Best Customers,

Hate to burst your bubble, but that just isn't true. Amtrak's "best customers" are the ones who consistently spend the most money

on tickets. Those folks aren't the ones who travel once or twice a year on a LD train. Amtrak's "best customers" almost without exception

live along busy corridors with multiple daily trains, and aren't terribly interested in traveling from a small town on a thrice-weekly

route to a small-town 1500 miles away on a once-daily route.

I'm NOT one of Amtrak's "best customers" and I don't live in the NEC, either. I've certainly seen some silly quirks in the Amtrak booking

system. But I also have a realistic view of what I mean to Amtrak in the grand scheme of things.

 

[the_traveler]

I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning.

I agree with you that taking the train would be nicer, but even if you can't get AGR to give it to you, it wouldn't cost very much to pay cash.

Well, it's a family of four, and the same situation would apply both ways, and if I was looking at BC (which is what I'd be getting if AGR would give it to me) I'd be looking at a total of $408 at the low bucket. Without BC, I'm still looking at $180. Whether or not that's very much is all relative of course, but it's enough that I'd definitely consider slumming it on the bus.

While what you say is all very true, remember that the Cascades run from SEA to VAC is a special route! Thus it is 1,500 coach or 2,000 BC. It may be worth it to use points if a thru award can't be used.

 

[Ispolkom]

Thanks! But doesn't the exception for sleeping accommodations allow for a route that's not "published"? Also, what would the purpose of the "23.5 hour" rule be?

I'm not trying to be argumentative--I've never used AGR so I have zero experience with it--but I don't understand why these exceptions are stated if they only cover what's already covered, so to speak.

Drat!!

Please don't apologize for being argumentative. After all, my post was an argument.

I'd agree that the two rules you quote aren't necessary, that saying that only published routes are allowed is sufficient. All I can say is that not everyone is into the brevity thing.

Look at the rules carefully, though. In both cases they only apply to published routes:

• 
  

  Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.
  [*]Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)

(bolding mine)

I wish the answer were otherwise, but there it is. It's difficult for me to see that this is anything other than another tightening of rules against the kind of AGR redemption I prefer, and which AGR (quite rightly) doesn't like, one that exploits the skeletal network, zone boundaries, and the no-overnight rule.

One thing I don't understand. If circle route redemptions are now illegal, why are the routes left in Arrow? Does anyone actually buy a ticket from Kansas City to Columbus?

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Circle routes are still legal; you are just billed for each Zone you pass through. In the case of the Columbus, that is now clarified to be a 3 Zone Redemption-Middle, West, Middle.

 

[Ispolkom]

Circle routes are still legal; you are just billed for each Zone you pass through. In the case of the Columbus, that is now clarified to be a 3 Zone Redemption-Middle, West, Middle.

Yes, but circle route redemptions aren't legal. KCY-CBS isn't a 3-zone redemption, rather it's two redemptions, one two-zone and one one-zone. A pedantic distinction without much difference perhaps, but a distinction nonetheless.

 

[tonys96]

Why on Earth does this not get routed SWC/EB ?

Just let the pax decide if they want to overnight in Chicago on their own dime?

It seems to me that this is the preferred booking, with the 23.5 hour rule fully in play!

 

[crescent2]

The issue goes beyond a few isolated city pairs,

Yeah, I don't really get why there are city pairs that are otherwise valid but not programmed into the booking

system. After all, there are a finite number of city pairs and a finite number of trains. And Amtrak schedules,

particularly LD trains, rarely change significantly, so you could basically program in all the city pairs once and

make changes only when the rare schedule change demands it. But, I'm not an IT person so I don't know

what all's involved.

I can't understand why Amtrak doesn't have all reasonable routes and city pairs programmed into Arrow, either. Granted, it's a job that would take some time initially, but it doesn't seem it would be an especially difficult task for an IT person. No doubt Amtrak loses paying customers because they think, "I can't get there from here."

Also hard to understand why so many of their phone agents don't understand how their system works (many, many posts on AU mention that).

Same thing with the current AGR zone map image missing the zone border cities, which the previous map image included. A little thing, maybe, but also simple.

Addressing these issues would not only help their customers, it would benefit Amtrak as well.

I keep telling myself, "Be glad there's still an Amtrak at all."

 

[crescent2]

I was interrupted in the middle of writing the above post about the missing itineraries. It obviously wasn't in reply to the most recent posts.

Ispolkom, thanks for your reply. I meant argumentative as in "fussy," not as in arguing a case. I hope I didn't sound too fussy! I honestly can't figure out those two rules/exceptions, and I appreciate your clarifications.

I probably should have PM'd AGR Insider rather than posting to the FT thread, but hopefully I'll get a reply anyway.

You are correct that the "23.5 hour layover" rule says it applies to "published" routes, but I'm still hoping the "all sleepers" exception will allow at least some redemptions that couldn't previously be made (unless you're yarrow LOL). If you want to book all sleepers on a trip and have to do that through an unpublished route......??? (as long as it's not a ridiculous routing)

Another thought: Even if they pop up only in Multicity, isn't that "published" as well? Yep, I'm grasping at straws!

As for the "circle route" rule, perhaps it's reasonable (though not welcomed!) when it applies to a circle route that's being planned solely for the sake of maximizing mileage on an award. OTOH, may that shouldn't matter? Regardless, aren't many circle routes legitimately the only way to get from point A to point B on Amtrak, given Amtrak's limited network? It may be a bit unfair to penalize those passengers by requiring an additional redemption. This probably won't ever be an issue on my trips, but I know it is for many here.

Publishing their rules has generated more questions, which was probably to be expected.

 

[zephyr17]

Well, I thought it might be more restrictive, and, according to the published rules, my proposed trip SEA-LAX-NYP can be done within the guidelines, so I am happy. SEA-LAX-ABQ via 11 & 4 as a 1 zone reward. The connection of 11 to 4 does show on the website for SEA-ABQ without using the Multi-City option, and the scheduled layover is less than 23:30, so that is legit. ABQ-NYP as a straightforward 2 zone reward via 4 & 48.

I am glad they published it, because now if I have an AGR agent that is uncooperative, I have published guidelines I can cite.

 

[PaulM]

I don't think that you can book one redemption PVD-HOS, since it's not a published route. The exception they give (PDX-KGM) doesn't apply because that is a published route.

I'm not sure I'm following this. I thought Amamba was trying to invoke the sleeper exception because the published route includes the bus segment without sleepers. What I would be afraid of is that a slick agent would counter that the alternative does not have sleepers on all segments (i.e, PVD to NYP). The exception does not allow for itineraries that are a lot more sleeper or sleeper all except a segment you wouldn't need a sleeper for anyway.

I would hope enough people complain that the word "all" goes against the spirit of exception, and get it reworded to allow for Amanda's case.

As far as the PDX-KGM example is concerned, you are probably right that it is a published route (I didn't check); but the wording of the rule says it is an "alternative, implying it isn't published. Probably just a bad example of the exception. Obviously, PDX-KGM doesn't have anything to do with PVD-HOS.

 

[amamba]

I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.

Not a she. A he, at least most of the time.

Really? Many AgR insider posts are signed Becky.

 

[amamba]

And seriously how hard is it to get the quotes to work on a freaking iPhone.

 

[Ryan]

It's been fixed in the most recently released version of the software.

They're waiting to install it to make sure all of the bugs are worked out from the hardware move before they start messing with the software.

Given that things seem to be running smoothly, I'd bet that we'll see it real soon.

 

[AlanB]

I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.

Not a she. A he, at least most of the time.

Really? Many AgR insider posts are signed Becky.

Not in at least the last 6 months. I don't think I've seen a "Becky" post since at least October of last year.

 

[Ryan]

Maybe she's thinking of Vickie? Doesn't she do a bunch of that?

 

[AlanB]

Maybe she's thinking of Vickie? Doesn't she do a bunch of that?

Could be, and Vickie is still there. She was Beckie's boss.

 

[jis]

Circle routes are still legal; you are just billed for each Zone you pass through. In the case of the Columbus, that is now clarified to be a 3 Zone Redemption-Middle, West, Middle.

Yes, but circle route redemptions aren't legal. KCY-CBS isn't a 3-zone redemption, rather it's two redemptions, one two-zone and one one-zone. A pedantic distinction without much difference perhaps, but a distinction nonetheless.

But buying a circle itinerary is legal, that is why it is still there as a legal route in the reservation systm. Afterall everyone is not like the_traveler, using Amtrak only with AGR redemptions.

 

[benjibear]

It is great that they published this and I think the results will be great overall. It will give a fairness that is needed in the AGR program. Also, it will force Amtrak to look at adding aditional routes into Arrow. This will help with the casual user that may punch into Amtrak their rounte and it gives them something that may not be the best. With more options, it may encourage people to ride. Not everyone does any research into how to get from point A to point B.

 

[jis]

That is very true. I know of a few cases where a novice simply chose not to use Amtrak when offered what to him/her appeared to be an absurd route when they were aware of a more rational possibility, but not offered that. If this forces Amtrak to add other possible and possibly more usable connecting routes it will just be generally better for all.

 

[crescent2]

Benjibear and jis: +1

AGR Insider has posted in reply to several questions posted on FT.

Here's most of Insider's post:

Feel free to PM me with connections you are trying to book for a travel redemption that meet our guidelines, but for some reason seem to be missing, and I'll pass them along. Just try to be reasonable about the volume of messages...

Now, to address a couple of questions that have come up:

* 23.5 hour rule - this is a longtime Amtrak tariff rule for what constitutes a valid transfer as opposed to a stopover for pricing purposes (on the revenue side of the house), and it carries over to what is allowed for AGR redemption itineraries. There are some itineraries which are automatically generated with a <=23.5 hour overnight connection, and such an itinerary would be valid on a single redemption. If an itinerary follows the guidelines and should be published, but isn't, tell an agent to escalate to supervisor, or send to me and it will be passed along to train operations for review.

* "Alternate direct routing" where the published route is a crazy train/bus combo and a better, all-sleeper train-train connection exists -- this is intended to cover sensible, direct unpublished routes. Ideally, we would like to hear about these connections and try to get them added to avoid confusion. The rule is meant to help in cases where they aren't. The PDX-KNG example (trains 11 to 4) was added to the connection table after the rule was written, funny enough. Originally, the only published route for PDX-KNG was 11-3712-712-5812-4, because it could all be done without a forced overnight on the customer's dime. 11-4 with an overnight in L.A. is much more sensible for the average person, and was a great example of a "direct" routing that simply wasn't published.

LAX-SAC-DEN on trains 14 and 6, or DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed under this policy. 785-4785-6 or even 4-8604, the two published routes today, aren't all that appealing. (Surely you'll agree, though, that a single connection to a four-hour bus ride isn't as big of a deal as the various transfers in Central California.)

In any case, the 23.5 hour rule applies for any forced overnight.

* Circle trip rule stands as written. KCY-CBS is a published route because it's the only way to get between those two cities on Amtrak whether you're paying with cash or with points -- but going from central zone to western zone, then back to central zone, cannot be done on the same redemption. Same PNR or reservation, sure, but not the same point redemption.

It is not a one-zone redemption even though both KCY and CBS happen to be in the same zone.

Since he or she gives the example of DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11 as being allowed, I'm taking the post as a "Yes" to my DEN-DAV (or perhaps EMY)-LAX question. Before the chickens are counted, though, does anyone see a reason this itinerary would not be allowed even though DEN-SAC-LAX is allowed? Thanks-

Apparently the "23.5 hour layover" rule will be considered on a case-by-case basis unless the trip already shows up on Arrow. However, Insider also says that it "applies to any forced overnight."

The "circle trip" rule is just as it is stated in the rules.

Unless I'm misinterpreting something in Insider's post, his or her clarifications on the "23.5 hour layover" and "all sleepers" rules/exceptions are favorable ones. Two out of three isn't bad!

 

[CHamilton]

Also, it will force Amtrak to look at adding aditional routes into Arrow. This will help with the casual user that may punch into Amtrak their rounte and it gives them something that may not be the best.

Very true. At present, Arrow sometimes spits out some crazy routings, like this one that came up yesterday while I was considering a Thanksgiving trip.

I decided to book SEA-VAC instead... :blink: