AGR Redemption Guidelines

[Ryan]

For those who read the AGR Thread on Flyer talk there are lots of Members (including me!) asking these Questions and AGR Insider does a Good Job of Responding and giving Answers! Check it out, still better Join in! It's Free and a Good Resource! (But not as Good as AU!!! )

I'm still always amazed that AGR chooses to host their social media interaction at a site devoted to air travel and not one of the many excellent Amtrak-related forums out there (like this one!).

 

[Ryan]

Edit: This post by AGR Insider is GREAT:

All of the train connections in our reservation system are entered manually by our national train operations center, after considering operational feasibility of publishing and guaranteeing the connection, on top of the simple "legality" under tariff rules. However, you are right that many otherwise workable connections are simply missing, or are available from one city but not from another.
The solution we have proposed to our agents is that if they feel a connection really should be available, but isn't, they can submit it to a supervisor for review and escalation if a customer asks for it. AGR can then ask train operations about adding it to the connection table; however, this is not an immediate process and research can take a few days. On the bright side, if a connection is added, it will be available to all other customers who might want it later, whether paying with money or with points.

For consistency's sake across all agents, the default will be to only book automatically generated itineraries. There is no other lowest common denominator that will ensure a consistent member experience, given the way our reservation system operates today.

 

[PRR 60]

For those who read the AGR Thread on Flyer talk there are lots of Members (including me!) asking these Questions and AGR Insider does a Good Job of Responding and giving Answers! Check it out, still better Join in! It's Free and a Good Resource! (But not as Good as AU!!! )

I'm still always amazed that AGR chooses to host their social media interaction at a site devoted to air travel and not one of the many excellent Amtrak-related forums out there (like this one!).

Despite its name, Flyertalk is devoted to discussion of all types of frequent traveler programs, and in addition to airline program forums, FT has active forums devoted to hotel, car rental, credit card programs, and, of course, Amtrak. Given that FT has official participation from various airline, hotel and other travel-related firms, I guess Amtrak felt that adding an official presence at FT was following industry president and would be beneficial to both the AGR participants and Amtrak. While AGR Insider occasionally answers questions about Amtrak operations, the focus of his participation is AGR.

To my knowledge, Amtrak has never officially participated at what may be described as "fan" sites, and for better or worse I think that AU falls into that category.

 

[Ispolkom]

I think two of the big positives (that supposedly were not allowed before) in the guidelines are the allowable overnight layovers of less than 23.5 hours, and the exceptions for getting a sleeper on routes that Arrow doesn't give. Am I missing something here?

Given AGR Insider''s clarification that all award travel has to be via "published routes," I think that neither of these positives exist. Overnights are only allowed when they are part of a route that's already programmed, like New York - New Orleans - Houston, or Portland - Los Angeles - Kingman.

These new rules are something of a let down, I think, because the new dispensation is not just that you can only book routes that are available on the Web site, but also that not all of those routes can be booked at any price. What the new rules call "circle routes" are simply not bookable as one AGR award, including the Houston - LA - Portland - St. Paul trip I took in January.

 

[Aaron]

This one's unclear to me:

"A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary."

Here's an example: The only routing Arrow spits out for travel from Alpine TX to Williston ND is taking the Sunset Limited west to LAX, Coast Starlight north to Portland, and Empire Builder east. That trip starts in the central zone, travels through the west zone, and then ends back in the central zone.

So, is this trip billed at 1, 2, or 3 zones? The way I would parse that part of the guidelines would tell me that it's three zones. The zone exit from the central and the zone entry into the west takes it to two zones, and then reentering the central zone would add a third. "Irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary" reads to me like "Yes, you were already in that zone once on this trip and were billed for it already. Too bad. More points needed."

What say you all? Is there an alternate interpretation here that I'm not seeing?

 

[jersey42]

"A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary."

Here's an example: The only routing Arrow spits out for travel from Alpine TX to Williston ND is taking the Sunset Limited west to LAX, Coast Starlight north to Portland, and Empire Builder east. That trip starts in the central zone, travels through the west zone, and then ends back in the central zone.

So, is this trip billed at 1, 2, or 3 zones? The way I would parse that part of the guidelines would tell me that it's three zones. The zone exit from the central and the zone entry into the west takes it to two zones, and then reentering the central zone would add a third. "Irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary" reads to me like "Yes, you were already in that zone once on this trip and were billed for it already. Too bad. More points needed."

What say you all? Is there an alternate interpretation here that I'm not seeing?

Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.

•Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.

 

[Aaron]

Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that would be the intention, since this is a published route and is in fact the only way to get from point A to point B using Arrow. It's not like this is one of those borderline abusive loophole trips.

 

[Aaron]

Here's one thing I'd love to see improved:

I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning. Here's the relevant sections of the rules:

• Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.
• Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)
• Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)

The published route requires a connection and I'd rather take a later one, but that first rule doesn't help me because the connection I want to take is the next morning (so, not on the same date). The second rule about the overnight connection doesn't help, because the overnight connection from the CS to the Cascades is not published in Arrow.

That third rule is something I really like, because it lets you find an unpublished route and use it as long as it's direct. Amtrak seems to understand that if you're redeeming a large chunk of points for sleeper service, you're going to want that on your whole route. I wish they would also show the same understanding that if you're redeeming points to ride the train from point A to point B, many if not most of these most frequent and loyal travelers would actually prefer to be on a train, not a bus. So, I would love to see a similar rule that says something like, "Where service on a train is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with train travel on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed." That would allow me to get off in SEA and stay overnight at my own expense, taking the Cascades in the morning.

 

[VentureForth]

That third rule is something I really like, because it lets you find an unpublished route and use it as long as it's direct. Amtrak seems to understand that if you're redeeming a large chunk of points for sleeper service, you're going to want that on your whole route. I wish they would also show the same understanding that if you're redeeming points to ride the train from point A to point B, many if not most of these most frequent and loyal travelers would actually prefer to be on a train, not a bus. So, I would love to see a similar rule that says something like, "Where service on a train is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with train travel on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed." That would allow me to get off in SEA and stay overnight at my own expense, taking the Cascades in the morning.

That, to me, means that I can book a sleeper from Savannah to Boston via Cleveland, taking the Silver Meteor, Capitol Limited and then the Lake Shore Limited because there is no sleeper service between NYP and BOS.
I wonder if they would make me go all the way to NYP, take the LSL to Schenectady, spend the night (less than 23 hours) and then the LSL back to BOS? Departure and arrival would be the same time, but the cost [ie: lost revenue] would be about $300 less, vs spending about $100 overnight in SDY... Either way, I would lose a day of travel, but I wouldn't have to be relegated to NEC Business class! LOL.

 

[Ispolkom]

Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that would be the intention, since this is a published route and is in fact the only way to get from point A to point B using Arrow. It's not like this is one of those borderline abusive loophole trips.

But it's the clear meaning of the sentence. I'm going to assume AGR meant what they wrote. Otherwise we can imagine intent to be anything, and we've replaced unwritten rules with rules that don't mean what they clearly say.

 

[CHamilton]

I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning.

I agree with you that taking the train would be nicer, but even if you can't get AGR to give it to you, it wouldn't cost very much to pay cash.

 

[Aaron]

I'm planning a trip from Tucson to Vancouver BC. The only published routing is the CS to the Thruway bus (since the CS gets in too late to take the Cascades). I'd rather take the train that leaves the next morning.

I agree with you that taking the train would be nicer, but even if you can't get AGR to give it to you, it wouldn't cost very much to pay cash.

Well, it's a family of four, and the same situation would apply both ways, and if I was looking at BC (which is what I'd be getting if AGR would give it to me) I'd be looking at a total of $408 at the low bucket. Without BC, I'm still looking at $180. Whether or not that's very much is all relative of course, but it's enough that I'd definitely consider slumming it on the bus.

 

[Aaron]

Perhaps it falls under the "circle trip" rule, and they will not let you book it as a single redemption. If you take the wording literally, it pretty much says this is an illegal trip, although I wonder if that is the intention.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that would be the intention, since this is a published route and is in fact the only way to get from point A to point B using Arrow. It's not like this is one of those borderline abusive loophole trips.

But it's the clear meaning of the sentence. I'm going to assume AGR meant what they wrote. Otherwise we can imagine intent to be anything, and we've replaced unwritten rules with rules that don't mean what they clearly say.

You're right, it's hard to interpret that circle trip rule any other way, even though it means trips like Alpine -> Williston are unbookable except as two separate redemptions, whereas El Paso ->Fargo, a longer trip on the exact same trains, is a single two-zone redemption. At least in the hypothetical Alpine to WIlliston scenario you could book a single one-zone trip from El Paso to Wolf Point and just bookend it with a couple of cheap coach tickets. Something like Houston->Fargo only has one published routing (SL->CS->EB), and that's unbookable also under the circle trip rule. Coach tickets to the zone boundaries are not as cheap there (Looks like low bucket of $97 from HOS->ELP and $72 from WPT->FAR).

 

[Aaron]

That, to me, means that I can book a sleeper from Savannah to Boston via Cleveland, taking the Silver Meteor, Capitol Limited and then the Lake Shore Limited because there is no sleeper service between NYP and BOS.

Well, I guess that's why they say "direct", as in "where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments". Your guess is as good as mine as to what an agent is going to consider a "direct" routing when trying to pull off a booking under that rule.

 

[fairviewroad]

I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,

Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that

a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.

Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.

 

[jimhudson]

I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that

a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.

Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.

They are ALL Equally Important to Amtraks Best Customers, just because you live in Flyover country is nNo reason to Just Cater to the Big Markets! Its called Amtrak Guest Rewards, not NEC Rewards! :help:

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Edit: this also means no such thing as a 4 or 5 zone trip.

It's true that there was never a four or five zone award. However, there are numerous published trips that have to be broken into multiple awards totaling four or five zones worth of points to be bookable with AGR. Nothing I've read so far seems to change that.

 

[PRR 60]

Edit: this also means no such thing as a 4 or 5 zone trip.

It's true that there was never a four or five zone award. However, there are numerous published trips that have to be broken into multiple awards totaling four or five zones worth of points to be bookable with AGR. Nothing I've read so far seems to change that.

In fact, the guidelines issued today confirm that. As you said, what AGR now defines as a "circle trip" will be broken into multiple award trips. Depending on the origin and destination, such a trip could well be a two-zone award one way, and another two-zone award the other way.

 

[Aaron]

I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that

a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.

I agree that any individual city pair that I can come up with is no big deal. However, the aggregate total of all of the problematic pairings may be enough to impact significant numbers of people. Then again, maybe not. Either way, those problems are all symptomatic of a larger problem of trying to travel north-south in a train network that really only runs eat-west between the Mississippi and the Pacific. The current zone map with zones arranged east to west may be the best way of handling a rewards program on such a network, but it will still leave a few poorly handled edge cases.

A more fair way to handle it might be a strict conversion from points to dollars like Southwest Airlines or something like that. However, if you gave me the choice, I think I'd prefer the current system, flaws and all. I may not be able to go where I want to, but once you know the rules and can figure out how to maximize what's available, you can still get a tremendous value for your points.

 

[amamba]

I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that

a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.

Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.

Thank you. No response from the AGR Insider, though, about that. I guess I would try to ask the agent about my PVD - Houston trip, (sorry can't remember the code for Houston!) because like I said, NYP - Houston is bookable arrow, and PVD - NOL comes up in arrow as a legal connection to the Crescent in arrow.

 

[ATXEagle]

I think realistically, AGR isn't going to spend a whole lot of time sweating out the details/fairness of people traveling from Alpine to Williston,Tucson to Vancouver, Winter Haven to Austin, etc. Those are all relatively obscure city pairs. Not saying that's right, just pointing out that

a relatively tiny portion of Amtrak customers/AGR members want to book routings like those.

Abamba's point about adding PVD-NYP to an otherwise bookable itinerary is a much more relevant concern, though.

The issue goes beyond a few isolated city pairs, I used Winter Haven as an example because it is one of two stations near my parents that I personally have experience with. The issue with Arrow's city pair programming applies when one tries to connect from any of the southeastern Atlantic coast cities served by the Silver Meteor to any of the cities served by the Texas Eagle. It is not a matter of one city pair, but a whole set of viable connections that have not been programmed into the system.

The issue also goes beyond AGR, but affects paid bookings too. Many customers probably do not know that they can piece together paid itineraries using the multi-city tool and might never see possibly more attractive options that have just never been programmed into Arrow.

 

[crescent2]

I think two of the big positives (that supposedly were not allowed before) in the guidelines are the allowable overnight layovers of less than 23.5 hours, and the exceptions for getting a sleeper on routes that Arrow doesn't give. Am I missing something here?

Given AGR Insider''s clarification that all award travel has to be via "published routes," I think that neither of these positives exist. Overnights are only allowed when they are part of a route that's already programmed, like New York - New Orleans - Houston, or Portland - Los Angeles - Kingman.

These new rules are something of a let down, I think, because the new dispensation is not just that you can only book routes that are available on the Web site, but also that not all of those routes can be booked at any price. What the new rules call "circle routes" are simply not bookable as one AGR award, including the Houston - LA - Portland - St. Paul trip I took in January.

Thanks! But doesn't the exception for sleeping accommodations allow for a route that's not "published"?

Also, what would the purpose of the "23.5 hour" rule be?

I'm not trying to be argumentative--I've never used AGR so I have zero experience with it--but I don't understand why these exceptions are stated if they only cover what's already covered, so to speak.

Drat!!

Also, I thought the "circle route" rule seemed more restrictive, too, but I didn't mention it because I didn't know of an example. If it's a route Arrow gives and there's not a clearly better alternate route, the rule seems a bit much.

I registered with FT yesterday, so I guess I should mosie on over there! Thanks again--

 

[Anderson]

It may be possible to sub a few cases where you're re-routing due to a lack of sleepers on a route even if it isn't in Arrow. The phrasing seems to offer that as an exception to the "published routes" rule.

The only "Circle trip" issue might be some legs to/from places in AL/MS (due to being auto-routed through CHI), though some oddness might also exist in parts of the Midwest. The "easy answer" is probably "cash to the border, points beyond".

The one thing that is a bit of a saving grace is that there are some mix-and-match split redemptions to be had that can still "force" a preferred routing.

 

[crescent2]

After reading the posts over on FT, it's still clear as mud to me.

I just posted this on FT (my very first post there):

Thank you, AGR Insider, for posting AGR redemption rules. Having an idea of what to expect before phoning AGR is very helpful. I have never used AGR, but have now accumulated enough points for a LD trip in sleepers.

I've read the above posts as well as posts on the AGR forum on AU, but I'm unclear on whether this itinerary is allowed on a single AGR redemption, all in sleeper accommodations:
DEN to DAV (or possibly EMY) on the CZ
DAV (or possibly EMY) to LAX on the CS
The trip comes up on amtrak.com using the multicity option, the overnight layover is less than 23.5 hours, and both trains have sleepers. And, viewing AGR's own zone map, this IS the most direct routing. (I want to book a train trip, not a bus trip.)

The "all sleepers" exception and the "<23.5 hour layover" rule would seem to allow it, and it's certainly not a crazy or circuitous routing. Is this a valid redemption? If not, can you explain the reasoning? Thanks!

Guess I'll be enlightened when a reply is posted there!

 

[amamba]

I PMed the AGR insider about the PVD - Houston trip and she said she would check with operations and get back to me.