AGR Redemption Guidelines

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AlanB

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I think that the title pretty much says it all, and I suspect that a few here will be disappointed that they can no longer play guessing games with agents. But regardless, AGR Insider has announced over at FT that the guidelines will be available come tomorrow. You can view the topic here.
 
jimhudson said:
:hi: Thanks Alan! Sounds like AGR is Finally getting some Professional Management and Leadership! ;)
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Actually unless there has been some recent, unpublished changes by Amtrak, Mike Blakey is still in charge of AGR and his right hand Vicki Radke is also still there too.
 
AlanB said:
jimhudson said:
:hi: Thanks Alan! Sounds like AGR is Finally getting some Professional Management and Leadership! ;)
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Actually unless there has been some recent, unpublished changes by Amtrak, Mike Blakey is still in charge of AGR and his right hand Vicki Radke is also still there too.
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Does this mean that the Resident AGR Guru will be out of a Job?? :giggle:
 
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Actually I look forward to seeing these. I like having a better idea of what I can or cannot do before calling to book.

Thanks for calling our attention to it.
 
Notelvis said:
Actually I look forward to seeing these. I like having a better idea of what I can or cannot do before calling to book.
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Well it also goes beyond that; now one has something to point at when an agent tells you that you can't do what you want and you know that it is perfectly legal to do it.
 
Let's place bets on what will be allowed! What about that tricky overnight in NOLA? Crap I didn't book my trip to Houston yet...
 
AlanB said:
Notelvis said:
Actually I look forward to seeing these. I like having a better idea of what I can or cannot do before calling to book.
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Well it also goes beyond that; now one has something to point at when an agent tells you that you can't do what you want and you know that it is perfectly legal to do it.
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This. Just posting the guidelines isn't going to change anything with regards to what the phone reps do, but will definitely give callers an easier time convincing the rep to actually do what they should. Over time, I suppose a teachable representative will eventually modify their behavior after being corrected by customers enough timqe, so I guess it's possible that eventually you'll be able to trust that the agent is correct more often than you do now.

Now, in the be-careful-what-you-wish-for department: Who else is concerned that the guidelines will support a much more restrictive view on things than what is currently allowed with some agents? For example, what if the actual guidelines specifically say only pre-programmed itineraries in ARROW are bookable, no overnight connections, you get charged for every zone you touch whether or not you get off the train, new reservation needed every time you change trains, etc. Basically, what if every bogus rep assertion ever made is actually true, and it was the more generous reps that were not knowing the rules? That's a much worse position to be in, because instead of being in a position where you get to quote the book to get the rep to do something you want, the rep gets to quote the book to tell you why you can't do that.
 
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Eek! Yes, that's a possibility, but hopefully the guidelines will be reasonable ones. Along with others who've posted, I too will be glad to have a better idea of what to expect before phoning AGR. Thanks for the heads-up, Alan!
 
AlanB said:
I suspect that a few here will be disappointed that they can no longer play guessing games with agents.
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That would be me.

Aaron said:
Who else is concerned that the guidelines will support a much more restrictive view on things than what is currently allowed with some agents?
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That would be me.

But here's my thought. Just because the rules are published doesn't mean that agents will act according to them. I'm sure that AGR wants the agents to follow the rules, but it will be interesting to see what they actually do.

So maybe this is a big change, maybe not.

ETA: Much depends on how carefully the rules are written. It could be that we will be left in just as ambiguous a position as we are now with regard to things like stopovers, zone crossings, etc., etc.
 
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I beileve this is it and posted:

What we all care about:

Redemption Travel by Zone

  • A travel itinerary for a single redemption must follow a published route between the initial origin and final destination. A published route is an itinerary automatically generated by Amtrak's reservation system.
  • A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary.
  • Where a desired itinerary does not exist as a single published route, the trip must be constructed as a series of published routes using multiple redemptions.
  • Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.
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The only thing I dislike about the rules is that Arrow can be dumb or slightly restrictive in many cases (and sometimes it ignores a slightly more logical option while putting in some odd ones). But it's nice to have all of this down on paper and be in a position to escalate when someone is trying to deny you an otherwise valid itinerary.
 
Interesting, because there are some routes that actually meet all of the criteria but cannot be ticketed solely because the connection is not in ARROW. For instance, Wolf Point-Albuquerque or Wolf Point-El Paso. CBS-KCY is certainly out.

The sleeping car exemption will help for people from the Southland who want to take the Starlight and connect with the Zephyr with an overnight stay in Emeryville/Sacramento, though, instead of sending them on the owl San Joaquin bus like I did last year. For CS-EB trips, with the "Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route" rule you could choose to reroute yourself via Seattle with the overnight stay, since the Portland sleeper often sells out. This would also eliminate the chance of having to take the bus from K-Falls as has been happening the past couple days.

Overall, for someone knowledgeable with the Amtrak system, it becomes a wash. The "no bedroom service" rule will likely be an object of people's schemes. I never tried anything outside of the ARROW box anyway, but many people both on this forum and outside did.
 
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Well, a good example of what can be frustrating is this:
RVR/south-NYP-CHI and RVR/south-WAS-CHI are both legal and Arrow-bookable, but in a lot of cases only the RVR-WAS-CHI option has showed up when continuing on. 98% of the time, this is a non-issue...but there are times when the Cap sells out and the LSL has space (I've seen it happen, but demand patterns get wonky at Christmas). Particularly if 66/67 gets its sleeper back, that becomes a viable (if longer) option eastbound as well.
 
There's more that what was quoted above:

An Amtrak station located on a zone boundary may be considered part of either bordering zone, if it is the initial origin or final destination for the redemption.

Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.

Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)

Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)

Sounds reasonable.

No circle trips isn't a surprise.

Being able to sub routes with all sleepers is real nice.

Overnight stopovers are nice.

Not having to take the next train out is nice.

Best of all, having it written down and publicly available is awesome.

Edit: this also means no such thing as a 4 or 5 zone trip.
 
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My big concern is this part:

  • A travel itinerary for a single redemption must follow a published route between the initial origin and final destination. A published route is an itinerary automatically generated by Amtrak's reservation system.
For example, I had mentioned that I am trying to plan a trip PVD - Houston. When I pop those city pairs into amtrak.com, it only spits out the LSL to the TE with the very long bus ride. Now when I do NYP - Houston, I get the trip I want, the Cresecent to the SL.

Now, does that mean that I need to do two redemptions, PVD - NYP for 4,000 points and then NYP - Houston? Or since it involves the long bus route, am I allowed an "alternate routing" like this: Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)
 
I don't think that you can book one redemption PVD-HOS, since it's not a published route. The exception they give (PDX-KGM) doesn't apply because that is a published route.

I'd book the trip NYP-HOS, since that is a published route, then call back in a few weeks, explain that your plans have changed, and add on the PVD-NYP leg. That is just a counsel of prudence, not a claim that I understand AGR rules.

I've asked AGR Insider on FlyerTalk if it's now possible to book the following one-zone award:

LAX-SAC (Coast Starlight), then SAC-DEN (California Zephyr). It's not a published route, but it is an alternate sleeper route.
 
Posting the entire rules just in case AGR decides to take them off its website in the future.

Redemption Guidelines Redemption TypesRedemption Travel by Segment

Acela Express: Each Acela Express travel segment requires a separate Acela Express redemption, and may not be reserved using any other redemption type.

Special Routes: A separate redemption is required for each Special Route travel segment, with the exception of 3000-6999 series Thruway service directly connecting to and/or from a Special Route train. Additional points will be required for other connecting services.

  • Special Routes include the following: Blue Water; Capitol Corridor; Carl Sandburg; Cascades; Downeaster; Heartland Flyer; Hiawatha Service; Hoosier State; Illini; Illinois Zephyr; Lincoln Service; Missouri River Runner; Pacific Surfliner; Pere Marquette; Piedmont; Saluki; San Joaquin; Wolverine Service.
  • At the member's option, Special Route travel may be included with an award for redemption travel by zone. Example: Portland, ME – Boston, MA – New Haven, CT using the Downeaster and Northeast Regional routes is permitted at the Northeast Zone point value.
Redemption Travel by Zone

  • A travel itinerary for a single redemption must follow a published route between the initial origin and final destination. A published route is an itinerary automatically generated by Amtrak's reservation system.
  • A single zone entry or zone exit comprises usage of one zone in the redemption, irrespective of prior or future travel in that zone as part of the same itinerary.
  • Where a desired itinerary does not exist as a single published route, the trip must be constructed as a series of published routes using multiple redemptions.
  • Circle trips are not permitted using a single redemption. A circle trip is a travel itinerary comprised of a series of segments that exit, and later re-enter, the same zone.
  • An Amtrak station located on a zone boundary may be considered part of either bordering zone, if it is the initial origin or final destination for the redemption.
  • Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.
  • Where a published route contains a valid connection of 23 hours, 30 minutes or less, an overnight stay in the connecting city is permitted at the passenger's own expense. (Example: one-way travel from New York to El Paso, where the published route requires an overnight connection in New Orleans, would be permitted on the same redemption.)Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Portland, OR to Kingman, AZ on trains 11 and 4)

Redemption Eligibility
  • Redemption travel may not be reserved unless a sufficient point balance is available in the member's Amtrak Guest Rewards account at the time of booking.
  • All passengers ages 2 and up are subject to the same redemption requirements. Infants (under age 2) may travel without a ticket, but if a separate seat is desired for an infant, points must be redeemed as for an additional passenger.
  • Redemption travel is not permitted on scheduled Amtrak service in the 7000-7999 number range. Any such travel must be purchased at the prevailing fare. This includes the portion of the Maple Leaf route operated by VIA Rail Canada between Toronto and the Canadian border.
  • Redemption travel is permitted on scheduled Amtrak service in the 8000-8999 number range when directly connecting to or from an Amtrak train. Exception: 8000-series Thruway service between the following cities (including intermediate stops) is eligible for redemption travel without a train connection: Seattle, WA – Vancouver, BC; Los Angeles, CA – Las Vegas, NV; Boston, MA – Portland, ME.

[*]Redemption travel is not permitted for any segment with a scheduled departure on a blackout date. Rule Buster redemptions are exempt from blackout date restrictions.
[*]Weekday redemption travel is not permitted on any Acela Express segment with a scheduled departure between 12:01 a.m. and 8:59 a.m., or between 2:00 p.m. and 5:59 p.m., inclusive, Monday through Friday. Rule Buster redemptions are not exempt from this restriction.
[*]Redemption travel that begins at an unstaffed station and includes non-eTicket travel (e.g. some Thruway buses) must be booked at least nine days in advance of departure to allow for tickets to be mailed. Other arrangements, such as priority mailing or pick-up at an alternate station, may be available by contacting the Amtrak Guest Rewards Service Center.
[*]Bicycle, golf bag, and/or Auto Train priority vehicle reservation charges are not included with travel redemptions, and must be paid separately where applicable.
Other Redemption Guidelines
  • When the same itinerary contains different classes of service across multiple travel segments, the redemption type with the highest point requirement applies.
  • Sleeping car redemptions are valid for business class accommodations, if available, on any connecting train in the itinerary (except Acela Express) that does not offer sleeping car service.
  • Sleeping car redemptions must follow the recommended capacity guidelines as published on Amtrak.com.
  • The redemption rate for a roomette will apply to an Accessible Bedroom reserved for passengers with disabilities. This discount is only available to passengers who require one or more accessible features of this accommodation; see Amtrak.com for details.
  • The redemption rate for a bedroom will apply to an Accessible Bedroom reserved for passengers without disabilities. Such a reservation may be made under the following conditions: the request is made 14 or fewer days in advance of departure; and,
  • all other sleeping car accommodation types are sold out at the time of the request.

[*]Any segment in a redemption travel reservation may be modified or cancelled at any time prior to travel. Additional points may be required for travel modifications. Points are not refundable for any portion of a redemption travel itinerary after travel has commenced.
[*]A "no-show" for any segment will result in forfeiture of points and travel for that segment, as well as all subsequent segments in the itinerary. A "no-show" is defined as a passenger's failure to travel on a segment from its origin without first canceling that portion of the itinerary.
[*]Points may be redeemed for travel in the name of passengers other than the member, but tickets and travel documents are non-transferable once issued.
[*]Redemption travel may not be bartered, brokered, purchased, or sold, except under programs fully authorized and/or sponsored by Amtrak. A redemption ticket has no cash value.
[*]Amtrak's Duplicate and Impossible Bookings policy applies to all redemption travel.
[*]Use of the Amtrak "Sleeper Waitlist" is not permitted for redemption travel reservations.
[*]All Amtrak Guest Rewards redemption transactions are subject to review, adjustment, or cancellation by Amtrak, in accordance with our Program Terms and Conditions.
[*]All rules and regulations pertaining to Amtrak Guest Rewards redemption travel are subject to interpretation or change without notice by Amtrak. They are published for the convenience of members only, and do not constitute contractual obligations of Amtrak. Please refer to Amtrak's Terms of Transportation for additional information.
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I am grateful for more clarity in the redemption rules. I also think the rules are pretty fair.

However, if we are dependent upon published routes that are automatically generated by the Arrow reservation system, I wish that Amtrak would take the time to correct the many programming inconsistencies in Arrow.

For example, I travel to and from my parent's home in Florida to my home in Austin, Texas by train approximately twice a year. I know the ins and outs of the various legal connections available. Arrow, however, does not know them all. For example, if I plug in WTH to CHI into Arrow I am given a choice to connect to the Cardinal in Washington (3 days a week). I am also given an unattractive bus connection between trains 98 and 51:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30163738@N05/8968458041/

If I search from WTH to AUS, however, I am only offered the bus connection, even though there is no logical reason not to connect from 98 to 51 directly at WAS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30163738@N05/8969661182/

When I'm paying for a trip I work around these inconsistencies by using the Multi-City tool. I've also been able to explain to some AGR agents what I want to do and have them book the routing I want. Now I fear that I'll be out of luck and they'll insist on the automatic Arrow routing, no matter how illogical.

I couldn't figure out how to post screen shots in this forum, so I linked to my Flickr page.
 
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TP1974: I agree that Arrow should be updated to show all logical routes.

Re the redemption guidelines, after a quick read, they seem reasonable. I'm just glad to have a better idea of what to expect before phoning AGR.

For those much more in the know about routing, would this now be possible on one (2 zone) redemption if I did the shortest overnight layovers:

Denver to Davis on CZ

Davis to Los Angeles on CS? (This is not offered on Arrow--it offers the SJ instead--but would the exception for sleeping accommodations allow it? I'd want a sleeper all the way. The overnight layover is less than 23.5 hrs. The way I read it, I think it would--??)

Edit: This is similar, but in the opposite direction of travel, to the example Ispolkam gave in his post above.

Could I even add:

LA to Atlanta on the SL (on a day it runs) and the Crescent?

If so, this is good! :)

I think two of the big positives (that supposedly were not allowed before) in the guidelines are the allowable overnight layovers of less than 23.5 hours, and the exceptions for getting a sleeper on routes that Arrow doesn't give. Am I missing something here?

Thanks~
 
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For those who read the AGR Thread on Flyer talk there are lots of Members (including me!) asking these Questions and AGR Insider does a Good Job of Responding and giving Answers! Check it out, still better Join in! It's Free and a Good Resource!

(But not as Good as AU!!! ;) )
 
yarrow said:
very interesting. have these always been the rules but they were not rigorously followed?
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Well there have been some changes to the original rules over the years, but yes, by and large these have always been the rules. The big problem has been in getting all the agents on the same page.

Hopefully this will help, and when it doesn't, at least those who read the rules will know that they should appeal to a higher authority when an agent gets it wrong.
 

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