Bedroom Pricing increasing everywhere!!!!!!&#3

[amtrakwolverine]

But their pricing model appears to be working most of the time with their market. Sleepers are running with a pretty high load factor, although that is not scientific, just my own observations, and anecdotal evidence. It would be interesting to see real data on that.

I don't have any data that shows what occupancy percentages were, although perhaps if I have some time later today I could calculate some based upon the numbers that I have and knowing how many sleepers per train there are. However, here are the ridership numbers for the last 7 years that show sleeper occupancy is indeed going ever higher, despite the higher prices. And of course we all know that on many trains it's impossible to book a sleeper at certain times of the year.

Note: This data is presented in Amtrak's fiscal year format, that being from October to September. So for example the first year of 2003 represents October 2002 through September 2003.

2003 - 611,308

2004 - 600,021

2005 - 605,010

2006 - 580,149

2007 - 591,023

2008 - 622,243

Note the drop in sleepers occupancy between 2003 & 2004 was due to the loss of several sleepers in various wrecks during that period. Back before all the wrecks including the big one on the AT, Amtrak had 175 sleepers, plus all trains still had dorm cars. Today there are only 160 sleepers listed as active, and no dorm cars on the single level trains which means that revenue rooms are lost to the crew. Note: I didn't include the Superliner Trans/Dorms in those counts, there are 41 of those cars in service both in 2003 and today. Most trains in 2003 did not sell rooms in the Trans/Dorm, whereas most do sell rooms today.

And the drop in sleepers between 2005 & 2006 was due to the cutting of the Three Rivers and its Heritage sleepers, and the loss of the Sunset east due to Katrina. Take out those anomalies and ridership has continued to increase over the years.

add the TSA to the mix and ridership will drop

 

[Donctor]

This is (like all the others about "Amtrak fares are too high!") turning into a ridiculous thread.
A few days ago, I was checking California Zephyr service CHI-EMY for the month of June. In over half the days that I checked, all sleepers were sold out. On the remaining dates, there were maybe one or two rooms left.

If Amtrak could throw two or three more sleepers onto that train, they probably would, and those cars would sell out. However, they can't. The equipment simply isn't there. So, what reason is there for Amtrak to lower the fare? Things in low supply and high demand cost more. That's the way it is.

Lowering the fares will not increase the ridership counts, because there isn't any room to accommodate more people. It will only cost Amtrak much-needed revenue, therefore lowering the cost recovery of the train, increasing the required subsidy, and increasing the likelihood that Amtrak's opponents will demand that the "money-losing venture" be shut down.

It sure would be nice if some folks would take an economics class before posting on here, rather than basing their entire position on "I'm not going to pay more than $X, therefore Amtrak should never charge more than $X when I'm looking to book a trip." Never mind that lowering the fare to $X would not only lower the revenue, but it would also cause the trains to sell out even faster, meaning that by the time you got around to checking fares, you still wouldn't be able to get a room.

Speak da truf.

 

[Donctor]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

I think, what you meant to say with your last line was, "someone else will take the room instead of me." Because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the sleepers are going out largely full.

So, obviously somebody doesn't think it's price gouging. So, have fun on the road. Keep that money in your pocket. Amtrak will just sell the room to someone else. They're not going to give you a discount because you're special.

I did not mean Amtrak is the only travel choice. It's pretty much the only train choice.

So it still comes down to the value of the sleeper. How much is it worth to you? I certainly can't afford large price hikes for travel anymore than anyone else, so I will continue to do the price dance, checking multiple dates, etc.

I do the "price dance" too, but I do so with the knowledge that Amtrak losing my business does not mean that Amtrak actually loses any business.

Except for a few days on the Eagle.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

And yet Amtrak's Auto Train does aspire to be more like that Orient Express.

Wait, you mean the Orient Express that went under a few years ago? I sure hope they're not trying to follow that path.

 

[Donctor]

Quick, everyone panic. Dear lord, odd price trends happen all the time. Stop worrying your little heads off. You're right, pricing things only in the highest bucket will drive off riders, I think. Ok, then Amtrak will lower the prices. Problem solved.
Amtrak won't keep this up if nobody buys the damned things. Plain and simple.

In the final analysis I guess that's the bottom line. Give us your price and we will see if it makes sense to us.

I differ with a few posters views here in that I don't view Amtrak passengers as the same group who ride the Orient express for the luxury and unique experience, but as everyday people with limited budgets who prefer this form of transportation and ride as a convenience. The AT is probably the prime example of this, where seniors, the elderly, college students, and middle class travelers go South with their car. Even in the sleeepers I didn't see too many people that fit the description of affluent. A good percentage of passengers had gray or white hair!

I believe that it is in Amtraks best interest to serve their core market and not try to run it, thinking that they are the Orient Express.

And yet Amtrak's Auto Train does aspire to be more like that Orient Express. It's the flagship train on the East Coast and its Bedroom prices are comparable with the other LD's. In fact, the AT brings in just as much revenue with its sleepers as does the Empire Builder. Granted the Auto Train for part of the year runs with twice as many sleepers, other times with 5, but then the AT is a one night ride while the EB is a two night ride.

Except on the Auto Train, everyone is riding from one end to the other. (That may not mean anything, because the only "real" place between Chicago and the Pacific Northwest is MSP.)

 

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Does DB or JR break even?

Actually, the Germans and Japanese broke up their national railways, and now the highly unprofitable regional services are subsidized by regional governments, not national governments.

Of course, the same is true for most mass transit and commuter rail systems in the United States.

 

[Big Iron]

I liked the $33.00 slumbercoach fares back in the 80's.

Hear , hear ! I did that quite a few times, especially on the Crescent while I was relocating from Philly to Atlanta.

I made a round trip in the mid 80's to CHI on the Cap and Card with a single slumber coach and roomette for $326.00 (miss that dome car). In 2010 I did the same, roomettes both ways for $416.00. Not to shabby with 25 years of inflation in between.

 

[nferr]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

But now you're paying for a hotel room, plus all your meals also. That adds up for two people. Not to mention you're sitting in one spot all night versus continuing your journey on an overnight train. So depending on where you're traveling it might be two nights in a hotel room versus one night on a sleeping car. Plus it's a hundred times more relaxing traveling by sleeper than driving IMO.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

and you fail to take in the account the cost of fuel and wear and tear on the car so while you think "i can stay in a hotel for 99 a night and drive for 1/4 the cost" you have the hotel your meals the gas for the car wear and tear and it takes 3 times as long cause unless you got a passenger who will sleep in the car while you drive you got to pay for meals for the 2 of you. at least with amtraks rooms meals are free and while im sleeping in a 1000 room that room IS MOVING so im still traveling while im sleeping. HOW MANY HOTELS DO YOU KNOW THAT MOVE WHILE YOU SLEEP. so while your sleeping in your 99 dollar room i'll be passing your hotel while giving you the finger cause i'll get to the destination first.

 

[Cristobal]

Since Amtrak is pretty much the only game in town with a few exceptions, if you want to ride the train, you must make the choice on pricing. Is it worth it to you?

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

and you fail to take in the account the cost of fuel and wear and tear on the car so while you think "i can stay in a hotel for 99 a night and drive for 1/4 the cost" you have the hotel your meals the gas for the car wear and tear and it takes 3 times as long cause unless you got a passenger who will sleep in the car while you drive you got to pay for meals for the 2 of you. at least with amtraks rooms meals are free and while im sleeping in a 1000 room that room IS MOVING so im still traveling while im sleeping. HOW MANY HOTELS DO YOU KNOW THAT MOVE WHILE YOU SLEEP. so while your sleeping in your 99 dollar room i'll be passing your hotel while giving you the finger cause i'll get to the destination first.

And likely in a much better, and more relaxed mood.

(Except for the mild depression that follows the end of a great trip by train.)

 

[amtrakwolverine]

(Except for the mild depression that follows the end of a great trip by train.)

only cure for that depression is to ride more trains

 

[dlagrua]

Amtrak is not the only travel game in town. There are the airlines, busses, and automobiles. Deciding whether or not to take Amtrak is a value judgement. They already have the sleepers priced at a premium, IMO the prices are sky high. If we drive we can stay at a great hotel for $125 most anywhere along the major highways and in a room with a king bed. If I have to pay more than $250-$300 + rail fare for a little onboard cubby hole of a bedroom it becomes a bad value. If the prices go up we'll just start driving more. Amtrak doesn't have something so great that they can price gouge for it and expect to fill the trains. Who do they think they are? They can keep their friggin room.

and you fail to take in the account the cost of fuel and wear and tear on the car so while you think "i can stay in a hotel for 99 a night and drive for 1/4 the cost" you have the hotel your meals the gas for the car wear and tear and it takes 3 times as long cause unless you got a passenger who will sleep in the car while you drive you got to pay for meals for the 2 of you. at least with amtraks rooms meals are free and while im sleeping in a 1000 room that room IS MOVING so im still traveling while im sleeping. HOW MANY HOTELS DO YOU KNOW THAT MOVE WHILE YOU SLEEP. so while your sleeping in your 99 dollar room i'll be passing your hotel while giving you the finger cause i'll get to the destination first.

And likely in a much better, and more relaxed mood.

(Except for the mild depression that follows the end of a great trip by train.)

OK lets look at some hard numbers. Trip from Lorton VA to Orlando FL on the AutoTrain One way for two. Average price for fare (for two) and a bedroom is $650

Now lets look at the automobile. My Chrysler 300 cost $18,000 (used) with 18,000 miles on the OD. I figure that the car is good for at least another 100,000 miles. Cost of wear and tear is then ,18 per mile. I do all my own repair work. So far in 40,000 miles of driving I have spent $25 on 8 oil changes ($200) brakes ($80) and not much else. So repairs and maintenance cost me $280.00 so far or another 7 cents per mile.

My total cost then per mile is 25 cents. My car gets 25 MPG on the highway so lets do the math.

From Mapquest this trip is 817 miles. and 12.8 hours of driving

Cost of car + maintenace and repair $204.00 817miles

Cost of gasoline $2.75 per gallon/ 25 mpg 89.87 32.68 gallons at 2.75

Cost of lodging (decent motel, one evening) 100.00

Cost for dinner 38.00

Cost for breakfast 15.00

Total cost to drive $446.87

Total savings one way $203.13 (updated error)

Still the comparison doesn't look too bad against a medium bucket fare and you save the time behind the wheel and rest up. I believe the A/T bedroom cost adds about $250.00 for this comparison. At these prices I'd rather take the AutoTrain ( we have 6 trips on it to date)

Now when you start moving up to routes like the LSL or CST and encounter only high bucket $800 bedrooms then it is far more economical to drive but if you can be happy in a roomette then the equation changes dramatically.

 

[AlanB]

OK lets look at some hard numbers. Trip from Lorton VA to Orlando FL on the AutoTrain One way for two. Average price for fare (for two) and a bedroom is $650
Total cost to drive $446.87

Total savings one way $406.26

Color me confused but if it's costing $650 for the AT and $446.87 to drive, how the heck are you saving $406.26?

By my calculations you'd be saving $203.13, and that's not taking into consideration that you'd need to buy at least one lunch on the road to, which you didn't include in your calculations. And you're also assuming that you don't get stuck in any traffic which would reduce your gas mileage and increase the costs.

 

[MikeM]

OK lets look at some hard numbers. Trip from Lorton VA to Orlando FL on the AutoTrain One way for two. Average price for fare (for two) and a bedroom is $650
Total cost to drive $446.87

Total savings one way $406.26

Color me confused but if it's costing $650 for the AT and $446.87 to drive, how the heck are you saving $406.26?

By my calculations you'd be saving $203.13, and that's not taking into consideration that you'd need to buy at least one lunch on the road to, which you didn't include in your calculations. And you're also assuming that you don't get stuck in any traffic which would reduce your gas mileage and increase the costs.

Thanks for asking, I was wondering that myself. Unless maybe he forgot to include marriage counseling after traffic tieups on the trip down and back perhaps?

 

[Donctor]

OK lets look at some hard numbers. Trip from Lorton VA to Orlando FL on the AutoTrain One way for two. Average price for fare (for two) and a bedroom is $650
Total cost to drive $446.87

Total savings one way $406.26

Color me confused but if it's costing $650 for the AT and $446.87 to drive, how the heck are you saving $406.26?

By my calculations you'd be saving $203.13, and that's not taking into consideration that you'd need to buy at least one lunch on the road to, which you didn't include in your calculations. And you're also assuming that you don't get stuck in any traffic which would reduce your gas mileage and increase the costs.

Thanks for asking, I was wondering that myself. Unless maybe he forgot to include marriage counseling after traffic tieups on the trip down and back perhaps?

No, the marriage counseling would make driving more expensive than the train.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

also you don't have to put up with back seat drivers in the front seat.

 

[RTOlson]

I made a round trip in the mid 80's to CHI on the Cap and Card with a single slumber coach and roomette for $326.00 (miss that dome car). In 2010 I did the same, roomettes both ways for $416.00. Not to shabby with 25 years of inflation in between.

Based solely on inflation, that trip in the mid-80s would've cost $660.51 in 2010 dollars, according to the feds' inflation calculator. And vice versa, the 2010 trip would've cost $205.32 in ’85 bucks.

 

[DowneasterPassenger]

Based solely on inflation, that trip in the mid-80s would've cost $660.51 in 2010 dollars, according to the feds' inflation calculator. And vice versa, the 2010 trip would've cost $205.32 in ’85 bucks.

Could someone please make a graph of inflation adjusted average coach and sleeper rail fare for a cross-country trip, for say, the last 100 years?

Kinda like this one for house prices:

http://static.businessinsider.com/~~/f?id=...20&maxY=474

I wish I could have bought a house in 1920.

 

[DesertRat]

Based solely on inflation, that trip in the mid-80s would've cost $660.51 in 2010 dollars, according to the feds' inflation calculator. And vice versa, the 2010 trip would've cost $205.32 in ’85 bucks.

Could someone please make a graph of inflation adjusted average coach and sleeper rail fare for a cross-country trip, for say, the last 100 years?

Kinda like this one for house prices:

http://static.businessinsider.com/~~/f?id=...20&maxY=474

I wish I could have bought a house in 1920.

I dunno that the 1920 prices are all that low in comparision to today. People earned cents per hour back then. Even in the 60s, I believe, a dollar per hour was a big deal.

 

[Ryan]

They are, that's the whole point of the chart being inflation-adjusted.

 

[amamba]

dlagrua, those estimates are all very well and good for you, someone who can do their own car maintainence. But for the average American who does not, let's use the IRS mileage rate of $0.50/mile. 817 miles of driving x $0.50 mile = $408.50.

Now add in your (very conservative) hotel cost ($100) and food costs ($53) and the total cost of doing the trip, one way via car = $561.50. That makes that AT a pretty good buy for the averageAmerican

 

[dlagrua]

dlagrua, those estimates are all very well and good for you, someone who can do their own car maintainence. But for the average American who does not, let's use the IRS mileage rate of $0.50/mile. 817 miles of driving x $0.50 mile = $408.50.Now add in your (very conservative) hotel cost ($100) and food costs ($53) and the total cost of doing the trip, one way via car = $561.50. That makes that AT a pretty good buy for the averageAmerican

Those IRS mileage numbers are average, not factual or actual for more people. If you drive a nice used car as I do the per mile rates are less. Factoring in not doing my own work would have brought what was required on the car up only about $480.00 in the required repairs and maintenance over 40,000 miles or less than .02 per mile. So over 817 miles the cost of reapir and maintenance goes up about $16.50 thats insignificant.

As for lunch, you don't get lunch on the AutoTrain so that cost doesn't factor into the equation.

 

[Ryan]

So far in 40,000 miles of driving I have spent $25 on 8 oil changes ($200) brakes ($80) and not much else. So repairs and maintenance cost me $280.00 so far or another 7 cents per mile.

It's unrealistic to think that over the long haul this is the only maintenance that you'll have to do (which is why the IRS rate is so much higher). Toss in a busted transmission or something like that, and the math changes a bunch.

Those IRS mileage numbers are average, not factual or actual for more people.

By definition, this statement is false.

 

[dlagrua]

So far in 40,000 miles of driving I have spent $25 on 8 oil changes ($200) brakes ($80) and not much else. So repairs and maintenance cost me $280.00 so far or another 7 cents per mile.

It's unrealistic to think that over the long haul this is the only maintenance that you'll have to do (which is why the IRS rate is so much higher). Toss in a busted transmission or something like that, and the math changes a bunch.

Those IRS mileage numbers are average, not factual or actual for more people.

By definition, this statement is false.

OK then consider that over 100,000 miles of driving, by the IRS std rate of .55 it will cost you $55,000 to drive??? Not going to argue the point but it sounds alot higher than it costs me to drive.

 

[AlanB]

dlagrua, those estimates are all very well and good for you, someone who can do their own car maintainence. But for the average American who does not, let's use the IRS mileage rate of $0.50/mile. 817 miles of driving x $0.50 mile = $408.50.Now add in your (very conservative) hotel cost ($100) and food costs ($53) and the total cost of doing the trip, one way via car = $561.50. That makes that AT a pretty good buy for the averageAmerican

Those IRS mileage numbers are average, not factual or actual for more people. If you drive a nice used car as I do the per mile rates are less. Factoring in not doing my own work would have brought what was required on the car up only about $480.00 in the required repairs and maintenance over 40,000 miles or less than .02 per mile. So over 817 miles the cost of reapir and maintenance goes up about $16.50 thats insignificant.

As for lunch, you don't get lunch on the AutoTrain so that cost doesn't factor into the equation.

First, just try arguing with the IRS. You won't win.

Second, the IRS rate includes wear & tear on your car in addition to the other things mentioned. It also does include an allowance for interest, something that you may or may not have had with your purchase.

Finally, the fact that you don't get lunch on the AT isn't relevant. The point is to make the trip whole. You can't make the same drive without having 3 meals, unless you're planning to be very hungry at some point along the way.

Not to mention the fact that while one doesn't get lunch on the AT, you do get snacks upon boarding, as well as a nice wine tasting.