Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation

[Thirdrail7]

What are the possibilities that Amtrak stops the order for V2s with these diners, er, first-class lounges, and doesn't receive the dorms and sleepers? I am thinking about this with regards to Amtrak's coming order for single-level cars to replace the Amfleet Is (and Amfleet IIs?). The vision for them is to be unlike anything else Amtrak has ever had before. So I have to wonder if they will be DMUs and EMUs? And, if so, wouldn't the Lake Shore and Capitol -- the two shortest-distance long-distance trains in the system -- be potential candidates for this equipment? If these were equipped with tilt mechanisms, the Capitol and Lake Shore would be able to travel more quickly, possibly CHI-East Coast as day trains.

I haven't heard anything but tt the sluggish pace they are arriving, I'd say the bag dorms would be in the biggest danger. As staffing is eliminated and baggage lite plans falter, I'd say they are expendable.

Even if something happened to LD trains, the sleepers could be used as day rooms. I think that would be cool for a BOS-RNK train or the Palmetto. Maybe even the Vermonter.

 

[neroden]

Sleepers do produce revenues but they also produce operating costs well in excess of them. I recall seeing the breakdowns in operating costs and revenues per train-mile for a sleeping car from about 10 years ago and those operating ratios were pretty bad compared to coach.

This is entirely false. I ran the numbers a few years ago (much less than 10). On the *Eastern, single-level* trains, sleepers produce more revenues than costs at this point. On the LSL in particular, they have a better operating ratio than coaches, though the same is apparently not true on the Florida trains.

(Dining cars are another matter. We'll see how much ticket revenue is lost due to the lack of breakfast on the LSL, but they certainly don't cover their costs except in terms of attracting customers.)

(And the bilevel trains are much worse financially; the sleepers may actually lose money there, due to much lower ticket prices.)

 

[cpotisch]

(And the bilevel trains are much worse financially; the sleepers may actually lose money there, due to much lower ticket prices.)

Indeed. Its crazy how cheap some of the cross country trains are. For example, two people in a roomette on the Sunset/Eagle from Pomona (the second stop on the line) to Chicago is about $580. Thats only about $40 more than the cost of two people in a roomette going end to end on the Meteor. But the former is a three night, eight meal, 61 hour ride that that covered more than 2700 miles. I cant imagine how they make much (or any) money on that.

 

[KmH]

i can imagine how they can make money on that.

Some of the roomettes will sell for as much as double that $580. And isn't that $580 only if the passenger books a SL sleeper out of Pomona and changes sleeper cars in SAS to a TE sleeper?

Some roomettes will sell for 50% more than the $580.

Looks like Texas Eagle sleeper costs Pomona to CHI are higher.

 

[cpotisch]

i can imagine how they can make money on that.

Some of the roomettes will sell for as much as double that $580. And isn't that $580 only if the passenger books a SL sleeper out of Pomona and changes sleeper cars in SAS to a TE sleeper?

Some roomettes will sell for 50% more than the $580.

Looks like Texas Eagle sleeper costs Pomona to CHI are higher.

Nope, the $580 is for the through sleeper. You don't need to switch at SAS. Though I will admit that you have to book pretty far in advance or very close in to get that fare. However, the next bucket up is about $690, is pretty common, and considering the length of the trip, still isn't bad.

All of that said, I feel like this is straying pretty far from the V-II discussion.

 

[niemi24s]

Here's some factual fare information for the Texas Eagle (422) from POS to CHI:

• Low bucket coach is $163

• Roomette buckets are $284, $403, $512, $631 and $747

So depending on the travel date, two adults in a Roomette could cost anywhere from $610 to $1073 before any discount.

 

[Ryan]

I'm not sure how that's relevant to Viewliner Production and Delivery.

 

[PRR 60]

I'm not sure how that's relevant to Viewliner Production and Delivery.

It has nothing to do with Viewliner Production and Delivery, and future posts about sleeper costs in this topic will be removed.

 

[jis]

I'm not sure how that's relevant to Viewliner Production and Delivery.

It has nothing to do with Viewliner Production and Delivery, and future posts about sleeper costs in this topic will be removed.

The current ones could be moved to niemi24s' forever running thread on cost buckets and what not too

 

[Lonestar648]

When the VII Diners go thru Hialeah is there any modifications that will be made to make the VII a Sleeper Lounge Car?

 

[Palmetto]

Yes, they are replacing all the bench-style seating and tables with lounge chairs, and a sofa or too.

Seriously, though, sitting at a table is not my idea of a lounge. Think Metropolitan Lounge seating.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

When the VII Diners go thru Hialeah is there any modifications that will be made to make the VII a Sleeper Lounge Car?

There are some modifications that happen after delivery, such as WiFi installation, but no major interior changes.

Is there a future for an Atlantic Parlour Car? Probably not...

 

[jis]

I heard an interesting piece of information at the RPA Meeting.

Apparently CAF has already paid up all the penalties and is not legally bound to deliver anything further. Apparently Amtrak is coaxing and cajoling them with some additional enticement to complete delivery of the remaining order, since Amtrak has already got a lot of sunk money in the modules and what not.

This raises the questions as to how long Amtrak would be willing to continue to do so.

If this is true, it is for sure a cockup of epic proportions.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Epic false information

 

[jis]

Epic false information

Maybe it is. But I would tend to trust an Amtrak person who was specifically there to talk about Amtrak Passenger Service, over you.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Ouch, tough day at work?

Not the first former to have a Amtrak officer lie to them.

 

[jis]

Ouch, tough day at work?

Not the first former to have a Amtrak officer lie to them.

Do you have any evidence that he was lying or are you just sharing a feeling?

Of course either way my original fear remains legitimate, since even if it is not true, one motivation for saying so would be to prepare the ground for discontinuing taking any further delivery. I am not saying that that is necessarily the case, but I remain apprehensive either way.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Understood.

I however will wait for exhibit B. You know from the lawsuit from Amtrak vs CAF. The lawsuit in which CAF states Amtrak keep changing the specs of the railcars which caused redesign issues, delays, and increased cost. The lawsuit in which Amtrak charges CAF with poor manufacture and management that result in a multi year delays.

The lawsuit that will be file after the order is delivered, so Amtrak and CAF have a reason to keep each other on this path.

Unless you think Amtrak has fully payed for these undelivered railcars. Or CAF has a maximum late fee clause.

.

 

[jis]

I don’t think anything and have absolutely no basis to do so. I was merely reporting what I heard and you appeared to have a severe reaction to it based apparently on just feelings. That’s OK. I was just exploring if there was anything more to it. Apparently not. [emoji57]

 

[Ziv]

Jis, I noted the "if this is true" disclaimer on your original report, so I can see that you aren't sure that this is truly the case, just that someone said that it may be. I really want to see the new sleepers more than anything else but any new rolling stock would be welcome. Amtrak needs to expand to thrive, stasis isn't doing it any good.

It is incredible that the Amtrak management is somehow tracking the US government on procurement woes. The KC46, the F35, the LCS, the EFV all had problematic development processes, and now the VLII CAF debacle follows the Nippon Sharyo disaster. Getting the equipment they order in good working order seems to be a problem for this government and its affiliated quasi public corporations like Amtrak.

In the future, I hope Amtrak follows Brightlines example and orders relatively off the shelf designs. Or simply makes tweeks to existing designs to lighten them by a small amount instead of a large amount, because it sounds like the design requirement stipulating the SLII weight reduction was one of the major reasons it failed the crush test.

Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!

I don’t think anything and have absolutely no basis to do so. I was merely reporting what I heard and you appeared to have a severe reaction to it based apparently on just feelings. That’s OK. I was just exploring if there was anything more to it. Apparently not. [emoji57]

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!

The fake news take its first breath of air, and is now alive...

 

[jis]

Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!

The fake news take its first breath of air, and is now alive...

Note that even if what was said is true, it does not imply that the Sleepers won't be delivered.

This is one reason that I tend to shy away from reporting things here. Some people have terrible comprehension of English and go off on a tangent.

 

[Ziv]

Not sure what your point is. Hearing something you disagree with doesn't make it fake news. Jis noted that it was simply a statement by an Amtrak employee at an RPA meeting. He didn't say that it was necessarily so. If I had to rely on anyone for information regarding Amtrak Jis would be right up there with ThirdRail as people who have posted info that has subsequently turned out to be correct. I am not speaking for Jis, just giving my thoughts on what I hope for with regards to CAF.

So, as I stated before, hopefully we will see CAF continue to deliver VLII's in the months to come. How you thought that was (or was related to) fake news...

Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!

The fake news take its first breath of air, and is now alive...

 

[PeepersK]

What's the need for the V2 sleepers and dorms? Neither CAF or Amtrak want them. For that matter what's the need for the diners? As first class lounges, what revenue will they produce? What costs?

 

[Trogdor]

What's the need for the V2 sleepers and dorms? Neither CAF or Amtrak want them. For that matter what's the need for the diners? As first class lounges, what revenue will they produce? What costs?

Notwithstanding any recent changes in company management or long-term planning, there were two main purposes to the Viewliner II order:

1) Retire the pre-Amtrak Heritage fleet, which was becoming more and more expensive to maintain. This included baggage cars on all long-distance trains and dining cars on the single-level trains

2) Increase the overall capacity of the fleet, as sleepers were often sold out during peak periods, and on the eastern trains, too much revenue sleeper capacity was being used by the crew (since the Heritage dorm cars had already been retired many years earlier). It would also give slack to the existing Viewliner sleeper fleet which didnt have too much spare capacity and was/is in need of a good refurbishment program after a couple decades of continuous service.

One can argue whether the plan (inside Amtrak there is often more than one plan) also included potential conversion of one or two Superliner routes to single-level (no spare LD coach or lounge capacity to do so) in order to provide more capacity for Western trains.

I dont think its fair to say Amtrak doesnt want the new sleepers. Its honestly hard to say what Amtrak does or doesnt want.