Track Work At Saint Paul Union Depot....

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Here are a few more pictures I took last Sunday afternoon (9-29). There has been some progress, but not a lot. You can see the progress on the west end OK, but I couldn't get near the east end. It's looking more like 2014 for the move. Looking forward to comments from those of you who are more knowledgable than I about the track connections and such and what you might be able to see from the pics.

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Union Depot 9-29-13 (35).JPG
 
dabrilloman, your photos look like model railroading in 1:1 scale! Thanks for posting them.

On the west end, is that lead track already tied in to the mainline out of sight under the bridge and around the curve?

As for the east end, I've stared at Google Earth for more minutes than I care to admit and cannot figure how things are going to tie in there (what with that wye being where it is), much less contemplate signalling.
 
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I wasn't aware that they were planning to connect both ends, as I thought the plan was to have stub-end tracks with the trains backing in/out. Run-through operation would certainly be preferable.

As for the switchover date, I remember hearing that there was a mid-January 2013 date posted at Midway Station this past summer. Not sure if that is still the goal. I suspect they will shoot for a low-traffic time to work out the kinks, which would suggest something in the Jan-April time frame.
 
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anir dendroica said:
I wasn't aware that they were planning to connect both ends, as I thought the plan was to have stub-end tracks with the trains backing in/out. Run-through operation would certainly be preferable.

As for the switchover date, I remember hearing that there was a mid-January 2013 date posted at Midway Station this past summer. Not sure if that is still the goal. I suspect they will shoot for a low-traffic time to work out the kinks, which would suggest something in the Jan-April time frame.
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I think you mean January 2014. Yes that is still the goal.
 
montana mike said:
Wasn't the original completion time December 2012? I remember seeing posters in MSP with that date as a "target" on several of my trips in the Fall of 2012.
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Union Depot did actually open in December of last year. The rail connection wasn't finished (or actually started), though. Not Ramsey County's finest moment. If Amtrak moves to Union Depot next year, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
Once the trackbed and switches are in place, signalling can actually go remarkably quickly.

I can believe January 2014.
 
Notelvis said:
dabrilloman, your photos look like model railroading in 1:1 scale! Thanks for posting them.

On the west end, is that lead track already tied in to the mainline out of sight under the bridge and around the curve?

As for the east end, I've stared at Google Earth for more minutes than I care to admit and cannot figure how things are going to tie in there (what with that wye being where it is), much less contemplate signalling.
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No, the west end tie-in to the CP Main hasn't happened, it will happen, when it happens, when the CP allows it to happen -- signal work not done yet -- and when it happens it will be a 2-5 hour job because it affects the CP's main - those railroads - messing with any main-line they really want to minimize the down-time

dabrilloman's photos show the prefab turnout under the Wabasha bridge has been extended past the frog and looks ready to cut in to the CP main on the west end. When? no se. And some rail laid between the depot and the CP main.

But now we see another prefab turnout on the ground closer to the station tracks on the west end -- what for - no clue.

It becomes clear to me that there is other track work "down in the swamp" that may or may not be related to the station connection. What this work is, what it does, don't know -expect BNSF (contractor for station connection) might use part of their station-connection contract with some of own funds to improve the bottleneck down in the swamp.

But the east end from the station tracks to the likely connection to the BN main at Division Street is still almost impossible to view.

Should I put on my fluorescent lime-green vest and a rented hard-hat and get down there to see what's happening? Maybe.

Anyhow, looks to me like the east-end station track will use the UP (say that because UP uses it, no idea who owns that south leg of the wye) and connect to the BN main 2 at Division Street. There's more prefab turnouts than I can account for laying around east of SPUD -- no idea where they all will go.

Expect clarity before end November
 
I crossed the Laffayette Bridge today (Oct 4) at about 1140 AM and could see some activity in the area of the west connection. I will head down to the Union Depot Sunday to see if anything has changed. I will have my camera with me! I also might head up to Mounds Park with some binoculars to see what I can see from the bluff on the east end.
 
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UP controls the south leg of the wye east of the station, but ownership is actually split between UP, CP, and BNSF. The joint ownership of this track as well as the main closest to the new platforms dates back to when SPUD was established and predecessors of these three railroads became joint owners of the track around the depot.

I have attached two site plans of the track and street layout around the refurbished depot. These depictions were made back in 2010, so they're likely not the most recent, but I don't know how many people have seen them.

St. Paul Union Depot Site Plan.pdf

Union Depot Track Plan.pdf
 

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  • St. Paul Union Depot Site Plan.pdf
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  • Union Depot Track Plan.pdf
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Thanks for the diagram, wherever it came from it makes the layout clear for all of us who are concerned about progress on the project.
 
From the photos, it looks like they may have changed the plan to move the UP-CP crossover, choosing instead to tie in the SPUD track farther west on the CP main. Hard to say for sure though.

The site plan shows a track branching off on the east side, running parallel to the north leg of the wye. I'm assuming this is a stub track to allow switching operations without fouling the main?

Mark
 
NW cannonball said:
Thanks for the diagram, wherever it came from it makes the layout clear for all of us who are concerned about progress on the project.
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Be sure to check out the second diagram, too. I found that after my original post and added it while you were writing your post. The best thing about this diagram is that it clarifies that the trackage closest to the depot is still jointly owned by BNSF/CP/UP (whose predecessors were instrumental in developing SPUD) but controlled and maintained today by UP. As a result, a UP dispatcher will have to be involved when the Empire Builder enters and exits the station from the east end.

Speaking of dispatching, the latest I heard is that four dispatchers will be involved:

  1. CP Minnesota Dispatcher on the west end
  2. UP Dispatcher or UP South St. Paul Yardmaster on the east end and on all BNSF/CP/UP track adjacent to the platforms (as the power switches on these tracks will be new, It's uncertain who specifically on the UP will be involved; entry to and exit from the joint SPUD track has traditionally been controlled by the BNSF and CP dispatchers, and the UP has considered the tracks yard limits)
  3. BNSF East Hump Dispatcher on the southeast portion of the wye east of the station, specifically where the switch connects the south leg of the wye to BNSF/CP Main 2
  4. The St. Paul Stationmaster or an Amtrak Dispatcher will be responsible for the switches on the platform tracks at the depot as well as determining which platform will be used
Edit: See post below about new dispatching plan
 
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anir dendroica said:
The site plan shows a track branching off on the east side, running parallel to the north leg of the wye. I'm assuming this is a stub track to allow switching operations without fouling the main?
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Presumably, yes. All of the documents I have seen show this track ending east of the station without connecting to any other tracks.
 
mwmnp said:
anir dendroica said:
The site plan shows a track branching off on the east side, running parallel to the north leg of the wye. I'm assuming this is a stub track to allow switching operations without fouling the main?
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Presumably, yes. All of the documents I have seen show this track ending east of the station without connecting to any other tracks.
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Yes, the tail track - storage track - that runs east curving north from the station - past points 2 and 4 and inside the "west leg" in the diagram - that is already in place.

Great diagrams - makes it all so clear - but not, unfortunately simple - complicated dispatching -- the "south leg" on the diagram has been a 2-3 UP train per day restricted speed hand-throw thru to the Division Street manual switch -- looks like that will be the way the EB gets to SPUD. Hoping track , switch and signals all being upgraded -- like I've said many times it is all "down in the swamp". Hoping upgrades work well for trains 7,8. We'll see how it all works out.
 
Doing some more investigation, possibly all of the information one could ever want about this project is available within the past agendas of the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority, accessible from this website.

Perhaps most significant over the past year is the document here, a 91-page report outlining all of the construction and coordination required of this project. This document pertains to all three of the Class I railroads involved and was current as of last December, though a revised one for UP was approved in June, and is available here. Construction agreements with each of the involved railroads are also posted and available for viewing. The one for BNSF is here, the one for CP is here, and the one for UP is here.

One of the more significant developments these documents indicate is that two of the four dispatchers originally thought to be needed to get the Empire Builder through the station appear to have been removed from the picture. The current plan, as detailed on pages 18 and 19 of the 91-page report and elsewhere, is to have CP dispatch the west end and have BNSF essentially dispatch the rest. A UP dispatcher should not need to be involved with Amtrak movements, and neither will a stationmaster or Amtrak dispatcher if BNSF instead controls the platform tracks and switches.

Anybody with an interest in this project really must check out these documents.
 
Hey thanks a few hundred times -- I tried to find those documents and failed first few tries and gave up. Thanks for finding and posting the nitty gritty really truly documents -- it makes it all so real.

Oh, and double thanks again.
 
It will be interesting to see who gets into SPUD first, Amtrak of Central corridor light rail.
 
mwmnp said:
Perhaps most significant over the past year is the document here, a 91-page report outlining all of the construction and coordination required of this project. This document pertains to all three of the Class I railroads involved and was current as of last December, though a revised one for UP was approved in June, and is available here. Construction agreements with each of the involved railroads are also posted and available for viewing. The one for BNSF is here, the one for CP is here, and the one for UP is here.
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Thanks so much. This explains exactly what's happening.
This even explains the odd breaks in construction: in addition to the RCRRA, all three Class Is are doing part of the construction, and they probably have different schedules. The RCRRA work was all done long ago. From the reports, it looks like on the west end UP has done its work but CP hasn't started its part yet, which explains the apparent pause in construction. Of course, it's hard to tell what's going on on the east end, but I would be unsurprised if the same were true. With UP handing over dispatching, it would make sense for UP to do the part of the work allocated to it and then get out and leave it to BNSF and CP.

Anybody with an interest in this project really must check out these documents.
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Yes, thank you for finding them!
 

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