Track Work At Saint Paul Union Depot....

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Progress on this project seems to be slow in the last 3 weeks since OP.

Viewed from the Wabasha bridge this evening seems like no change on the west end near and under the Robert Street bridge.

To actually see what is happening -- for me that is a 5 hour project -

Start at Wabasha bridge view track work from there to Robert Street. Walk to Robert Street and view work from there. Walk to SPUD, view from elevated concourse east and west. Go down to track level

and walk the whole public-accessible area. Walk over to Kellogg and take photos from the Kellogg bridge (it shakes, it wiggles). At the high end of Kellogg at Mounds keep walking and taking pictures. Take more pix from Mounds Park. Go back and take Commercial Street down into the swamp and the wildlife preserve. Take more photos from ground level there (under the big wye.) Back to Jackson, cross Warner Road, walk a mile on the public trail, cross Warner defying traffic to get to the Warner Road ROW that looks down on the big wye in the swamp. Walk up and down the rough public ground on the north side of Warner Road and take more pix.

I don't have time the next few weeks to do this. Any volunteers?

Hope, but can't confirm, that the project is progressing. Maybe SPUD will be connected next spring in time for the floods? Who can say.

About the Short Line from SPUD to the Midway -- it isn't seriously slow (but could get slower now that the Ford plant is closed) - but the stretch through the Minnesota Commercial yard to connect to the BNSF is painfully slow.
 
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It's great that Amtrak will be moving into spud, but with the timekeeping of number 8 right now into MSP this train is worthless for eastbound connections or anyone who wants to get to Chicago on time. If Minnesota ever funds a MSP-CHI day train at least it could leave on time.
 
Walker derailed it. If he is thrown out it might come back. If Iowa gets passenger-friendly administration an Iowa route might materialize instead.

For better or worse all expansion is going to be driven by the whims of state legislatures for many years into the future. The federal government is badly broken, which appears to have been the goal of some of the elected officials who campaigned on "anti-government" platforms.
 
Nathanael said:
Walker derailed it. If he is thrown out it might come back. If Iowa gets passenger-friendly administration an Iowa route might materialize instead.
For better or worse all expansion is going to be driven by the whims of state legislatures for many years into the future. The federal government is badly broken, which appears to have been the goal of some of the elected officials who campaigned on "anti-government" platforms.
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We are at a point where government isn't the solution, it is the problem. "Anti-government" platforms didn't break the Federal government - expanding beyond its Constitutionally-enumerated and intentionally-limited powers broke it. The bigger the government grows, the smaller the citizen shrinks.
 
Meanwhile the project appears to be sitting there and we just wait to see what happens.......................................I remember, reading in the MSP newspaper during one of my many trips on the EB one morning that the newly refurbished St. paul station would hopefully be ready for Amtrak passengers around Christmas--of 2012!!!!! Now we are hoping it "may" be some time in 2014. Arrrrrrgh.
 
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Today's paper says the depot is creating a memorial for all the service people who left for war from there and never returned alive. Another reason for me to get down there sometime soon.
 
Nathanael said:
In the future, quite likely the easiest way to speed up the Empire Builder would be to improve the Short Line and Minnesota Commercial tracks. The "Short Line" is the shortest route, and avoids backup moves -- the only problem with it is that the speed limit on the track has been allowed to go down to very low levels.
The cost of upgrading the track & signal along this route, to allow, say, 60 mph (class 4 track) would probably be a lot less than any other speed improvement which could be made for the entire Empire Builder route. Even upgrading it all to class 3 track (30 mph) would be a great help, and has to be relatively cheap.

The current 10 mph speed limit through the yard *has* to be something which could be addressed. (Of course eliminating the stop at Midway would require moving servicing to St. Paul Union Depot, but there is room for that.) You could cut ten minutes, maybe twenty off the schedule.

Someone would have to pay to maintain the higher speeds. But it's not that long a piece of track.
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From my years of riding through St. Paul, the CP Merriam Sub seems to be in okay shape: 30-35 mph, plus the ride is pretty smooth. The problem is MN Commercial trackage: like you said, 10-15 mph, the ride is just a little bumpy plus there are some tight curves. Drop in some signals and welded rail on the MN Comm. and everything will be dandy. About the servicing at SPUD, no problem except there needs to be an engine to switch the 807/808 car off and on the end of the train.
 
I've seen exactly zero progress since the OP posted -- a visible way to go on the west end with only 200 km to go , and no clue on the east end.

Suspect that maybe after the grain harvest, and hopefully before cold cold winter, a bit more might be done. But the tie-in isn't overdue until -- sometime in 2014.
 
Could anyone provide a link (or an image) to a map of the route of Amtrak #7 & 8 through St. Paul? I only know the city vaguely, and I've never ridden the Empire Builder, so I can't work out the route. Thanks!
 
jamesbrownontheroad said:
Could anyone provide a link (or an image) to a map of the route of Amtrak #7 & 8 through St. Paul? I only know the city vaguely, and I've never ridden the Empire Builder, so I can't work out the route. Thanks!
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Hmm.

Start with this:

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/ofrw/maps/MetroRailMap.pdf

You can probably trace these routes on Google Maps if you zoom in far enough.

Starting from the west, the Empire Builder runs on the northern of the two BNSF lines (in green on the state rail map), the one which goes through Big Lake. This is the same route which Northstar takes. In the Twin Cities, you'll notice that the green lines merge, then split into two routes, and there's a branch which heads west across the river. Northstar takes the branch to get o Minneapolis. The Empire Builder doesn't; it can follow either of the green lines, to the black line in the middle, which is marked MNNR for Minnesota Commercial. The current "Midway" Amtrak station is located on that very short section. Then the Empire Builder continues on the CP/SOO (red) line, eastwards, past St. Paul Union Depot, through Hastings and onward on CP to Chicago.

The state rail map is a little misleading on the east end. East of Union Depot there are CP and BNSF lines right next to each other (actually operated jointly and dispatched by BNSF). Immediately next to Union Depot there are UP and CP lines right next to each other.

I hope this is sufficient to allow you to trace the route on Google maps. I am not able to make a custom Google map myself.
 
zephyr17 said:
Sometimes I think the folks who did the planning of the St. Paul Union Depot restoration watched "Field of Dreams" one too many times.
"If you build it, tracks will come."
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Now -- "If you build it" -- maybe tracks will come

When, a hundred + years ago the ROW's were put in place, and fought for, and legislatures bribed, it was true that "if you build it --- "

That's part of the reason why even now Saint Paul, and most river cities, have difficult problems with riverfront development - complex right-of-way - abandoned polluting superfund sites.

When J J Hill and the like did their thing over a hundred years ago - they built -- people moved in -- they made their billions (current dollars) -- but the aftermath is still with us -- .
 
Anyone got up-to-date photos? I would expect that some more work would have been done by now, but I can't find any reports on the web.
 
I'll eventually figure out how and where to post photos, but as of 8 days ago, on the west end, it looks like Dabrilloman's pictures. Except the Cat is gone. The west end switch in the photo is there, but no switch machine and no switch heater. And no more rail laid west of that switch.

Same piles of ties, same rail on the ground waiting for -. Maybe another layer of aggregate track base laid west from the switch under the Robert Street bridge. No sign of signal work on the west end.

As for the east end - as I've said before - it's hard to get pictures there - the work is much more interesting but -- maybe a real long lens from the Wabasha bridge - or take the public trail along Warner Road, cross Warner to the north side, and wade through the steep weeds for a view from the south across the CP mains? Or hire a helicopter?
 
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Took a walk around the periphery.

West end - there is a turnout being (pre)constructed on the ground near the tracks under the Robert Street bridge - and it's more than half done - from the (west end) points eastward to but not yet including the frog. There's also blaze orange marker paint on the ground hear CP Main #1 to show where it will be fitted into the main - whenever that happens.

East end - didn't see area near east end of station tracks (is construction zone for new LaFayette bridge, attempt to cross Warner Road from south to north at high point no good late afternoon traffic).

Farther East end near Division Street - yes - new signal bridge installed not yet in service at East Division Street - also a probable preconstructed turnout waiting on the ground near there.

One more turnout seemed ready to install, it was laying under the Kellogg Bridge near the BN mains.

Got some photos but still face the learning curve on cropping and posting - am checking the photography forum here.

My feet hurt. Next time I won't walk all the way from Hoffman to US 61 and around Mounds Park and back down Kellog.
 
Thanks for the updates. I appreciate them. It sounds like there will be a turnout for direct entry from the station to the BNSF St. Paul Subdivision (presumably only for use during detours).

The track arrangement for trains coming from the south into the station should be interesting to see. I would expect it to require several crossovers (or diamonds, but crossovers are preferred these days).
 
Naah - no new crossovers or diamonds -- all that connecting will happen as it does now in the big Hoffman interlocking east of the station and east of the wye.

Hoffman has on the east the two joint CP & BNSF mains from Saint Croix Junction near Hastings - the two CP mains that go past the station and on to the Short Line and the UP line to KC -- and the two BNSF mains that turn north and split into the old GN and major old NP north of the wye. And some UP track rights from their Pig's Eye yard - and connects to the CP(ex Milwaukee) hump yard and the BN Bluff yard. The heart of the Hoffman is a 5-track any-to-any multi-crossover. Very busy. Many ins and outs. Hoffman is the congested interlocking that the freight lines want finanicial help for -- including that possible passenger flyover.

But -- on the east end connection to SPUD -- looks like they will be using the hand-operated switch at Division street that connects the UP Spine to trackage rights on BN main 2.

The BN new signal bridge near there has nothing to do with the SPUD connection -- it only controls BN main 1 and the lead to the BN Bluff yard.

There may be an other connection to BN main 2 from the UP wye for westbound backing move from SPUD.

So - on the east end SPUD will connect via a hand-throw at Division Street from the UP to the BN -- probably.
 
The cantilever signal that is replacing the old signal bridge at Division Street, is actually being removed and replaced with a 3 track signal bridge. When it was installed, the SPUD project wasn't considered, and thus will be removed before being cutover. A 2 track cantilever signal will be installed on the east end of the platforms. The manual throw switch connecting the UP to the BNSF will be powered. That's about the extent of the work going on with signals on the east side.
 
Buuuut... the depot tracks currently don't connect to the UP track on the east side. As of the last photo I saw, it doesn't, anyway.

And the point where the two Amtrak platform roads are supposed to merge is only 400 feet from the point where the wye separates into north and south legs.

I guess there will be a switch immediately west of the UP wye, leading to the depot tracks? Because there wasn't one there before. This is the key switch. Does anyone have a vantage point where they can see it? I guess the Lafayette Blvd. construction makes it rather hard to see this location.

So the train will come off the depot track, switch onto UP, then immediately switch to the south leg of the wye, then switch into BNSF Main 2 going south (on the third of five tracks), and then finally switch to the correct track?

I suppose the switch from the south leg of the wye onto BNSF is the one which you are referring to as "hand-thrown" which is now being powered?

Anyway, if I count correctly, a train coming out of St. Paul Union Depot to the east must immediately traverse at least four switches just to get onto the BNSF Main:

(1) switch joining the two platform tracks

(2) switch connecting the platform tracks to UP

(3) switch leading to the south leg of the wye

(4) switch leading to the BNSF main

There might even be a fifth switch (1.5) if the platform tracks have an alternative path to the northeast, one other than merging into UP (whether directed towards the St. Paul sub, or merely a parking track or headshunt).

Whew. The next question is who's going to dispatch all of this. It would really be best if UP wasn't involved in the dispatching it at all, so I hope it isn't.
 
F40PH203 said:
The cantilever signal that is replacing the old signal bridge at Division Street, is actually being removed and replaced with a 3 track signal bridge. When it was installed, the SPUD project wasn't considered, and thus will be removed before being cutover. A 2 track cantilever signal will be installed on the east end of the platforms. The manual throw switch connecting the UP to the BNSF will be powered. That's about the extent of the work going on with signals on the east side.
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Good to know that - so the new signals at Division will be replaced with a new 3-track signal that controls the bluff lead and both BNSF mains - now including the (powered) UP turnout at Division that leads to SPUD.

The (old)new signal cantilever had two heads per track (vs the old bridge one light per track) - assume the new one will have 2 heads each for all 3 tracks.

Yup - there's a switch (installed, with heater) where the two station tracks join/split

(1.5) and a turnout to the northeast tail track (for storage?)

(2-4) yes -- at least the last connection onto the BNSF main looks like it will be powered from what Guest_F40PH203 posted.

Progress on (2-4) is very hard to observe -- without trespassing and/or having heavy things fall on your head. Near the construction zone where there are pedestrian pathways, there are also signs "LOOK UP AND LIVE" - saw workers (not directly overhead) pounding (bolts-rivets-pins) into the gussets on the new bridge -- if a bolt fell on my head -- maybe a hard hat might help. If the man dropped the 8-pound sledge- not good. If the gusset fell - splat! The new Lafayette bridge will have pedestrian walkways - unlike the current bridge.

But the west end looks almost ready to go -- except for signal work.

Dispatching -- does anyone have a clue how that will work?

<edit> and nobody has a clue about the timeline to completion
 
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