Track Work At Saint Paul Union Depot....

[NW cannonball]

For me, learning that the UP switch south of the river near Plato and the two switches way east at Hoffman are part of the project -- good planning -- those long UP and CP freights won't be fouling the approaches to SPUD.

I used to think that the project was mismanaged because of the delay connecting SPUD to the mains, now it is clear how complicated the whole works is. And how forward-looking for possible high-speed and regional the planning is.

Thanks again mwmnp for posting.

 

[rocknviking]

Here are some photos of the work being done on the west end. It appears that all of the switches are now installed.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Here is an article from Minnesota Public Radio: Amtrak stop at Union Depot pulls into final stages

Some tidbits from the article:

[Dan] Krom [ director of passenger rail for the Minnesota Department of Transportation] said although signal work will be less visible to the public, it's a large part of the project because 5 percent of the nation's rail traffic moves through the freight tracks along the depot.

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The Union Depot stop for the Empire Builder Amtrak train will open for service after Thanksgiving this year.

No source cited, but

Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari said an exact date for start of service at Union Depot has not yet been announced, but is expected later this year."We will not make a move over Thanksgiving," Magliari said, "because there's too much volume to be disruptive to our passengers to make their travel plans change perhaps for Thanksgiving."

########​

MnDot personnel are also working with Amtrak to add a second daily train to Chicago that would have its last stop at Union Depot, then return south, instead of continuing to Seattle as the Empire Builder currently does."We'd have a lot more reliability for passengers. Right now, it's got to come 28 hours from the coast, and sometimes it's delayed because anything can happen between here and Seattle," Krom said. "We'll have our results by the first of the year on whether or not it's feasible and how much it would cost to start a second daily train. But the demand is there."

Researching the idea involves looking at how much train capacity the track currently carries, and those technical details put the planning behind schedule, he said. The idea has been explored for about a year.

"If it looks feasible, it would probably be brought to the legislature for the upcoming session," Krom said.

While none of this is exactly new, and we all know how reliable Amtrak 'time frames' can be, I thought the article was worth sharing.

Time will tell...

 

[Joe F]

I was at the Midway station this weekend to pick up tickets for an upcoming trip, and asked about the move. The agent told me they will be moving to SPUD by the first of the year.

He also said that westbound trains will follow the current route after leaving SPUD, heading up Short Line Hill, through Midway past the old station and west along the former GN. Following the old NP line via Westminster would be faster, but they apparently are not permitted to make a reverse movement out of SPUD.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I was at the Midway station this weekend to pick up tickets for an upcoming trip, and asked about the move. The agent told me they will be moving to SPUD by the first of the year.

He also said that westbound trains will follow the current route after leaving SPUD, heading up Short Line Hill, through Midway past the old station and west along the former GN. Following the old NP line via Westminster would be faster, but they apparently are not permitted to make a reverse movement out of SPUD.

Joe F,

:hi: Welcome to AU! :hi:

Thanks for posting!

 

[anir dendroica]

Will eastbound trains be making the reverse move into SPUD then?

I'm arriving in St. Paul from Portland on Dec. 20 this year, hoping the switch happens by then. I would guess they will either do it in the first couple weeks of December or else wait until after the holiday season.

Mark

 

[Ispolkom]

Will eastbound trains be making the reverse move into SPUD then?

I'm arriving in St. Paul from Portland on Dec. 20 this year, hoping the switch happens by then. I would guess they will either do it in the first couple weeks of December or else wait until after the holiday season.

Mark

I'd think that eastbound trains would also use the Merriam subdivision, as they do now.

 

[anir dendroica]

My understanding is that the two BNSF mains through Division street are run mainly directionally, with eastbounds on the south track and westbounds on the north track. As the station wye connects to the south main (Main 2), eastbounds would cause a relatively short delay to eastbound freight with a reverse move (and power switches), while westbounds would need to cross between mains and thus delay freight in both directions.

Furthermore, eastbounds are coming in on BNSF and can thus be run through town on BNSF with the flow of traffic. Westbounds will have variable station dwell times at SPUD, potentially forcing dispatchers to hold freight traffic at Division St. for longer periods in anticipation of Amtrak departure.

In short, I can imagine a near-term solution in which eastbounds stay on BNSF (and reverse into or out of SPUD) and westbounds stay on CP across the city.

 

[jebr]

Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.

Pearl Harbor Day? :blink: Just happenstance?

"A day that will live in infamy" according to FDR!

Not an ominous sign of the move 'bombing' or anything! :giggle:

 

[jebr]

Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.

Pearl Harbor Day? :blink: Just happenstance?

"A day that will live in infamy" according to FDR!

Not an ominous sign of the move 'bombing' or anything! :giggle:

Maybe it's more of an ode to the history of the move...the move has already "bombed" in that it's a year late. h34r:

 

[PRR 60]

My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.

 

[Notelvis]

Saw a report on the Trains Newswire yesterday that the turnouts into the new SPUD platforms were completed earlier in the week and that BNSF would handle dispatching into and out of SPUD.

While no exact date for moving the Amtrak station stop to SPUD was reported, an Amtrak spokesman was quoted as saying that in order to avoid passenger confusion, the move would not take place during the Thanksgiving Holidays but, rather, sometime shortly after that.

Makes December 7th sound like a reasonable date. It's a Saturday which would lend itself to a big ceremony designed to get folks down to the station. I would not be surprised if #8 makes it's stop at Midway on 12/7/13 with SPUD opening that afternoon in time for #7 to make the first stop at SPUD that evening.

 

[Ryan]

12/7/13 is also the opening of Penn Line weekend service on the MARC. May end up being a good day for passenger rail.

 

[Ispolkom]

Last I heard, Amtrak is tentatively looking at December 7 for a move to SPUD. Whether that will hold remains to be seen.

Pearl Harbor Day? :blink: Just happenstance?

"A day that will live in infamy" according to FDR!

Not an ominous sign of the move 'bombing' or anything! :giggle:

Well, a December 7 move to SPUD would mean that Amtrak moved in less than a year after SPUD's reopening. One day less than a year.

 

[anir dendroica]

My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.

I can see this happening for a few months during the transition period, but if it goes on indefinitely it will seem like a classic case of Amtrak mismanagement.

With two platform tracks and two stub tracks, there is no reason that a coach can't be added/removed at SPUD, and with all of the ticketing and passenger handling employees moving to SPUD there is no reason that service employees can't move as well. Then Midway can be mothballed or sold to save money and the only reason to stop there will be to occasionally pick up/drop off PVs.

 

[Nathanael]

My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.

I've also heard this repeatedly.

I really don't understand why they'd do this long-term; it would make a lot more sense to do the cutting & adding at SPUD, and I believe SPUD was specced out with all the necessary servicing facilities for Amtrak (correct me if I'm wrong). There's even enough room to store private cars at SPUD (though private car owners might prefer having them at Midway). Issues with road crews switching? What?

 

[Nathanael]

There's one more switch than expected in that photo. A derail, perhaps?

 

[anir dendroica]

My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.

I've also heard this repeatedly.

I really don't understand why they'd do this long-term; it would make a lot more sense to do the cutting & adding at SPUD, and I believe SPUD was specced out with all the necessary servicing facilities for Amtrak (correct me if I'm wrong). There's even enough room to store private cars at SPUD (though private car owners might prefer having them at Midway). Issues with road crews switching? What?

Road crews switch at St. Cloud, so that shouldn't be the problem. In fact I'm not sure that any crew members get on/off at MSP.

As for that "switch", it has no frog... I'm guessing it's a derail.

 

[bgiaquin]

My understanding is that train servicing will continue to be performed at Midway station. The switching and storage of the seasonal CHI-MSP coach will also take place at Midway. There will not be any passenger access, but both the east and westbound Builders will continue to stop at Midway.

I've also heard this repeatedly.

I really don't understand why they'd do this long-term; it would make a lot more sense to do the cutting & adding at SPUD, and I believe SPUD was specced out with all the necessary servicing facilities for Amtrak (correct me if I'm wrong). There's even enough room to store private cars at SPUD (though private car owners might prefer having them at Midway). Issues with road crews switching? What?

Road crews switch at St. Cloud, so that shouldn't be the problem. In fact I'm not sure that any crew members get on/off at MSP.

As for that "switch", it has no frog... I'm guessing it's a derail.

No crew members get on or off at MSP

 

[anir dendroica]

Is the train "serviced" at MSP in any way (i.e. adding water, food for the diner, etc.)? Which of these functions would be hardest to move to SPUD? Seems to me that it should be less difficult than moving the "front end" operations.

 

[NW cannonball]

I'd guess that the EB keeps using the CP short line and then through the MNRR yard past the old Midway station for at least 5-10 years.

Reason - cost. I'd make a winning bet that BNSF would want a lot more money for running the Builder from Northtown to Division (or Hoffman) on their very busy mainline than what Amtrak pays to bypass that stretch on the Short Line.

Same thing in other words -- freight congestion (or from the BNSF point of view, passenger train (and UP trackage rights) congestion) on the BNSF mains west from Hoffman or Division, especially between Division and Mississippi St/Westminster.

The big BN mains are faster (until you get near Northtown, where congestion sets in again) once you get on them. But I see a lot of freight traffic waiting at Hoffman from the 3 (BN CP UP) yards there waiting a long time to get on those mains.

The two BNSF mains going by Division Street take all the traffic from (and to) the two double-track BNSF mainlines to the west and from the UP to the east, and south - where all these lines merge at the Mississippi Street/Westminster Street wye. And likewise from CP and BNSF points east and UP points south.

The CP short line has the advantage that there's very likely no waiting for freight traffic, especially since the Ford plant closed. The track is 30-40 MPH - with no waiting.

The other slow spot is the MNNR yard near Midway station. The cost kicks in again. For switching, all those old MNNR Alco's with their relatively cheap crews, and plenty low price storage tracks for PV and the seasonal MSP-CHI Amtrak coach. At SPUD -- lots of switchers at the yards two miles away -- but cost probably twice per hour, and have to get cleared through Hoffman to SPUD to even start working $$$.

Naah, It'll be the Short Line for years. Because of the costs.

PS - the Builder refuelled at MSP last - maybe 5-10 years ago? Crew change is at SCD. Potable water IS definitely available at SPUD. Other "servicing" is zilch -- unless -- minor mechanical problems?? MNNR has minor diesel and mechanical servicing available at the old Midway location 24 hours. Another reason to touch there.

 

[anir dendroica]

That makes sense in terms of routing. The slow MNNR track and hand-throw switches could be improved for a fraction of the SPUD trackwork cost, if that becomes a priority.

As for switching the 707/808 coach, is there any reason this can't be done by #7 and #8 themselves, rather like the Spokane split/combine that happens every day? #7 would simply leave the coach at the platform, and #8 would pull through the open platform track, back up to connect to 808, and then open the doors for its station stop. #7 loses no time, and #8 loses perhaps 5 minutes.

I can see stopping at Midway for maintenance and to set out/pick up PVs, but it still seems silly to spend 15 minutes sitting there every day for switching that could be done at SPUD.

 

[NW cannonball]

That makes sense in terms of routing. The slow MNNR track and hand-throw switches could be improved for a fraction of the SPUD trackwork cost, if that becomes a priority.

As for switching the 707/808 coach, is there any reason this can't be done by #7 and #8 themselves, rather like the Spokane split/combine that happens every day? #7 would simply leave the coach at the platform, and #8 would pull through the open platform track, back up to connect to 808, and then open the doors for its station stop. #7 loses no time, and #8 loses perhaps 5 minutes.

I can see stopping at Midway for maintenance and to set out/pick up PVs, but it still seems silly to spend 15 minutes sitting there every day for switching that could be done at SPUD.

No doubt switching the seasonal MSP-CHI coach could be done at SPUD cheaper. Probably will be. But the cheaper less congested trackage favors the old Short Line for now.

 

[AlanB]

As for switching the 707/808 coach, is there any reason this can't be done by #7 and #8 themselves, rather like the Spokane split/combine that happens every day? #7 would simply leave the coach at the platform, and #8 would pull through the open platform track, back up to connect to 808, and then open the doors for its station stop. #7 loses no time, and #8 loses perhaps 5 minutes.

If Amtrak crews can do it in St. Louis then there is no reason that they can't do it at SPUD.