Things You May Not Want To Hear From AMTRAK or An Attorney or A Securi

[NAVYBLUE]

Please read all the sources to get the jist of all the sources as you lose the whole idea of the security concept discussion. I am still "plugged in" to some security issues due to casual conversations with senior enlisted personnel I have run in to in my RV travel to various military RV parks. The CAPPS-2 program caught me off guard and I am NOT happy with what I am reading. This should make you sleep good at night.

Wednesday, September 8th, 2010

"We've been doing random searches for years. None have been in response to particular threats. It's more to show force."
 
–
http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20100908/NEWS01/9080330/PATCO-riders-undergo-searchAmtrak spokesman Cliff Cole
http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20100908/NEWS01/9080330/PATCO-riders-undergo-search. (
http://www.theagitator.com/2010/09/08/quote-of-the-day-16/http://www.theagitat...-of-the-day-16/
http://www.theagitator.com/2010/09/08/quote-of-the-day-16/)
 
 
Amtrak's police chief told a Senate committee Tuesday the system expanded its efforts to keep passengers safe. But he pointed out Amtrak would remain a 'clear and open' service.
 
(
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2011/06/amtrak-http://www.wjla.com/...2011/06/amtrak-
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2011/06/amtrak-)tightening-security-amid-threats-62285.html)
 
 


The first and most obvious cost is compromised liberty and privacy. People should be free to travel without having to show papers or prove they aren't criminals — especially where, as here, Amtrak has not come forward with any compelling reasons why an exception should be made to this usual rule.
 

These police searches might conveniently turn up evidence of contraband other than terrorist weapons in passengers' bags, and allow them to be arrested for that instead. Indeed, how long will it be before the bomb-sniffing dogs are supplemented by those of the dope-sniffing variety? You might argue that it's just as well to catch people committing other crimes, even victimless ones like drug possession. But if that's the main "benefit," then Amtrak should say so and not use the pretense of protecting us from terrorism.
 

Another cost of Amtrak's plans is that they may make Americans accustomed to hallmarks of a police state: random searches, and men in uniform with big guns. That may not matter much to the masses of sheep who often seem so willing to trade liberty for false security, but it still means a lot to many Americans, and meant a lot to our Founding Fathers as well. (
http://www.lewrockwell.com/huebert/huebert28.htmlhttp://www.lewrockwe.../huebert28.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/huebert/huebert28.html)
 
 
First, verifying that someone has a photo ID is a completely useless security measure. All the Sept. 11 terrorists had photo IDs. Some of the IDs were real. Some were fake. Some were real IDs in fake names, bought from a crooked DMV employee in Virginia for $1,000 each. Fake driver's licenses for all 50 states, good enough to fool anyone who isn't paying close attention, are available on the Internet. Or if you don't want to buy IDs online, just ask any teenager where to get a fake ID.
 
Our goal is to somehow identify the few bad guys scattered in the sea of good guys. In an ideal world, what we would want is some kind of ID that denotes intention. We'd want all terrorists to carry a card that says "evildoer" and everyone else to carry a card that said "honest person who won't try to hijack or blow up anything." Then, security would be easy. We would just look at people's IDs and, if they were evildoers, we wouldn't let them on the airplane or into the building.
 
This is, of course, ridiculous, so we rely on identity as a substitute.
In theory, if we know who you are, and if we have enough information about you, we can somehow predict whether you're likely to be an evildoer. This is the basis behind CAPPS-2, the government's new airline passenger profiling system. People are divided into two categories based on various criteria: the traveler's address, credit history and police and tax records; flight origin and destination; whether the ticket was purchased by cash, check or credit card; whether the ticket is one way or round trip; whether the traveler is alone or with a larger party; how frequently the traveler flies; and how long before departure the ticket was purchased.
(
http://www.schneier.com/essay-008.htmlhttp://www.schneier.com/essay-008.html
http://www.schneier.com/essay-008.html)
 
 
Photo ID Required
Amtrak customers 18 years of age and older must produce valid photo identification when:
 

• Obtaining, exchanging or refunding tickets
• Storing baggage at stations
• Checking baggage
• Sending Amtrak Express shipments
• Onboard trains,
  in response to a request by an Amtrak employee

 
Random Ticket/ID Checks
Following federal Transportation Security Administration (TSA) guidelines, we regularly conduct random ticket verification checks onboard trains to ensure that passengers are properly ticketed.
Please be prepared to show valid photo identification
to a member of the onboard crew upon request.

(
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Page&cid=1241267382692&pagename=am/Layouthttp://www.amtrak.co...ame=am%2FLayout
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Page&cid=1241267382692&pagename=am/Layout

 
 
NAVYBLUE
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[the_traveler]

I'm not about to get into a shouting march with you, or anyone else, but consider this:

even victimless ones like drug possession

I doubt they're talking about prescription drugs. People that have them either use them themselves, or sell it. And then they may drive, and get into an accident with your car! So is it still "victimless" if it causes an injury to you?

And I have always been asked to present a photo ID when picking up ticket from a ticket agent, but never from a QT or aboard the train!

 

[me_little_me]

You forget one thing. IDs not only identify who you are for security purposes but if you are the owner of that ticket i.e. is it yours or is it stolen?

 

[NAVYBLUE]

I'm not about to get into a shouting march with you, or anyone else, but consider this:

even victimless ones like drug possession

I doubt they're talking about prescription drugs. People that have them either use them themselves, or sell it. And then they may drive, and get into an accident with your car! So is it still "victimless" if it causes an injury to you?

And I have always been asked to present a photo ID when picking up ticket from a ticket agent, but never from a QT or aboard the train!

No shouting match required or implied. The whole jist is about security and to what extent do you want to endure the checks that may or may not make you safer. It is NOT about what they may be looking for or what they find in the process. IMHO, there are very few victimless crimes.

By the way, I have a VERY LOW tolerance for people who maim, hurt or kill someone under the influence of alcohol or non-prescription drugs while driving a vehicle. It has affected me personally in my extended family, friends and military personnel I served with.

NAVYBLUE

 

[NAVYBLUE]

You forget one thing. IDs not only identify who you are for security purposes but if you are the owner of that ticket i.e. is it yours or is it stolen?

Which brings up an important question. Why does Amtrak care if the tickets are stolen ? They got their money, why should they care ? As a quasi government corporation, it's not like they have stock

holders to answer to although as a taxpayer I guess I could be considered a taxpayer. And if checking your ID is for insuring the tickets are yours why do they not check every person, every day, on every

train. Went 1/8 from LAX-WAS on SWC and Cardinal and no one checked my ID on the train. Told the SCA on both train our room number and they directed us to the room. No one ever checked ID except when we checked bags at LAX. The Conductor on both trains took his portion of ticket and that was that. No ID required.

So either check EVERY person or lets end the charade. Just my opinion.

NAVYBLUE

 

[TimePeace]

Much better to send the men in uniform with big guns to other countries to continue spreading our own particular brand of imperialism, to maintain our evolution in the direction of the rich getting richer. Oh, and to keep our supply of oil and other exploitable resources going as long as possible. It is what has made this country great. As a veteran, I know this.

Right?

Wait, this has nothing to do with trains, never mind. Belay that, sailor...

 

[Ryan]

And if checking your ID is for insuring the tickets are yours why do they not check every person, every day, on every train.

Deterrence. The same reason that security measures are put into place in the absence of a direct threat on a random basis. If the bad guys know what to plan for because we maintain the same posture 24/7, their planning gets much easier.

Much better to send the men in uniform with big guns to other countries to continue spreading our own particular brand of imperialism, to maintain our evolution in the direction of the rich getting richer. Oh, and to keep our supply of oil and other exploitable resources going as long as possible. It is what has made this country great. As a veteran, I know this.

Right?

Easy there, Master Chief.

 

[amamba]

With all due respect to my esteemed mod the_traveler, I HAVE had my ID checked a few times on the train.

-once on the Downeaster, and the conductor was randomly checking the ID of a bunch of pax in my car.

-once on another train, can't remember if it was NEC regional or acela

-a few times from OBS while ordering alcohol (but I realize that is not really the topic of our discussion)

But it seems that they really have an organized program on the Downeaster where the conductor will check IDs along with tickets. I am not sure if that has something to do with the way that the train is funded/run by that other group? I forget the name, but you know what I mean I think.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

Ryan

Easy man, you got me and Maine Rider mixed up in your reply. I have NO idea what he is talking about unless he is doing a "rant" and trying to do an imitation of me. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If you know what he is talking about please enlighten me.

OK, back to your reply and deterrence. I hope you did read the whole article by the security expert. How does a "random" check of ID's on trains deter terrorists. I think the security expert showed quite eloquently that the 9/11 bombers had excellent IDs and they had no problems getting aircraft flight training and on and off airline flights. If a terrorists IDs match the name on the terrorist tickets how does that deter them if they are checked by Amtrak security and they match. If it is a random check what are the mathematical odds that a terrorist would have his ID checked. If the ID says Gallo Shabeb and the tickets say Gallo Shabeb and he is fact Abdull Sabeia Muhammed a known terrorist who is in a sleeper with a carry on suitcase full of C4 and checked in (2) suitcases full of C4 wired with remote detonators, please tell me how the station clerk who checked his bags and tickets and ID and the conductor who checked his ID and tickets has stopped a mass murder from occurring.

NAVYBLUE

 

[Ryan]

No confusion, Maine Rider is a retired E-9 as well.

You're mixing ID checks and terror protection in my post. Non-100% ID checks stop people from using stolen tickets. Not being able to use stolen tickets makes travelers happy.

Random searches, as described in the first quote by Mr. Cole can be good security policy if properly executed.

 

[AlanB]

So either check EVERY person or lets end the charade. Just my opinion.

Actually the onboard checks are supposed to be random. The conductor who originates the train is required to pick a number between 0 & 9 and write said number on the ticket pouch. From that point on until the train reaches its terminus for any ticket collected from a passenger that has a ticket number ending with that digit the conductor is supposed to request ID. Sadly some conductors violate policy by checking every passenger, while others violate policy by not checking the passengers with that magic digit.

This is the agreement that Amtrak worked out with the TSA in the hopes of keeping the TSA out of the Amtrak travel business. It is effectively a TSA policy, which is why this is a real problem when conductors violate the policy in either direction. Unfortunately the laws in this country more or less give conductors considerable power. For example a conductor can order the local police to remove you from the train for any reason and the local police must comply. Yes, you might have a heck of a lawsuit if the conductor does it without a truly justifiable cause; but you'll still be watching the tail lights of your train fade into the distance while you start plotting your lawsuit.

Too many conductors don't seem to realize that the onboard ID check isn't an Amtrak thing, it's a TSA thing which means that they could actually run into trouble with the TSA for failing to obey the policy. Many conductors think that it's just an Amtrak policy that's a nuisance and like other Amtrak rules they can just disobey like so many other Amtrak rules without any lasting consequences. This time they are wrong. The TSA could cause them considerable trouble if they suddenly decided to check up on things.

Regardless, this is why this rule exists and why the check is random.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

OK, this for Ryan and AlanB only to answer. The answer is "YES" or "NO" No other answer just yes or no. I am NOT talking anything about stolen tickets.

This is the scenario again:

OK, back to your reply and deterrence. I hope you did read the whole article by the security expert. How does a "random" check of ID's on trains deter terrorists. I think the security expert showed quite eloquently that the 9/11 bombers had excellent IDs and they had no problems getting aircraft flight training and on and off airline flights. If a terrorists IDs match the name on the terrorist tickets how does that deter them if they are checked by Amtrak security and they match. If it is a random check what are the mathematical odds that a terrorist would have his ID checked. If the ID says Gallo Shabeb and the tickets say Gallo Shabeb and he is fact Abdull Sabeia Muhammed a known terrorist who is in a sleeper with a carry on suitcase full of C4 and checked in (2) suitcases full of C4 wired with remote detonators, please tell me how the station clerk who checked his bags and tickets and ID and the conductor who checked his ID and tickets has stopped a mass murder from occurring.

Would a random check of ID and tickets OR a check of every person of their tickets and ID onboard an Amtrak train by an Amtrak employee from terminus to terminus have stopped this from happening.

It is real simple, yes or no.

NAVYBLUE

 

[AlanB]

Navy,

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them.

This forum has several old posts from me talking about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of implementing the ID checks. I'm on record multiple times and in various places about the uselessness of the checks. I didn't need to look at any report that you linked to, and honestly and frankly didn't even have time to look at your links, to know that its useless. As I've stated in some of my older posts, our US Border Patrol agents who receive intense training on ID's and fraud of same were having a mega-hard time of spotting problems. This is one reason, along with some theatrics IMHO, that we now need passports to cross the border with Canada.

If the border patrol with all of their training is having trouble picking out fake ID's, there is no way that an Amtrak conductor who has received zero training by the way on ID's is going to spot a fake ID.

Plus as I had also mentioned in my old post, at least 3 of the 9/11 terrorists had actual NJ Driver's licenses issued by the State of New Jersey. Yes, they were obtained fraudulently by paying off an employee, but as far as NJ or anyone else looking at it was concerned, it was a real license. I wasn't aware that there were some Virginia licenses involved too.

 

[Spokker]

I'm surprised I still get away with not having my ID checked on the Surfliner. In due time, of course.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

Navy,

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them.

This forum has several old posts from me talking about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of implementing the ID checks. I'm on record multiple times and in various places about the uselessness of the checks. I didn't need to look at any report that you linked to, and honestly and frankly didn't even have time to look at your links, to know that its useless. As I've stated in some of my older posts, our US Border Patrol agents who receive intense training on ID's and fraud of same were having a mega-hard time of spotting problems. This is one reason, along with some theatrics IMHO, that we now need passports to cross the border with Canada.

If the border patrol with all of their training is having trouble picking out fake ID's, there is no way that an Amtrak conductor who has received zero training by the way on ID's is going to spot a fake ID.

Plus as I had also mentioned in my old post, at least 3 of the 9/11 terrorists had actual NJ Driver's licenses issued by the State of New Jersey. Yes, they were obtained fraudulently by paying off an employee, but as far as NJ or anyone else looking at it was concerned, it was a real license. I wasn't aware that there were some Virginia licenses involved too.

As I expected, you wouldn't answer the question with a yes or no.

So, I will answer it for you. The answer is no. Random or 100% ID/ticket checks at the ticket check/baggage or by an onboard Amtrak employee would not stop my scenario from happening in present day America. So, ID checks are not going to prevent me from being blown up. Therefore I am safer on an airplane than an Amtrak train due to the CAPPS2 system

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them. (Part of your response)

So, lets now get to the real issue. What is the real purpose of checking for IDs at ticket office/bag check in and/or by onboard employees. Here is a shocker for everyone. I don't know. You did mention Amtrak has agreed to do a random ID check to keep TSA happy and off their back. Someone else mentioned it's to stop stolen tickets from being used. So to me both are "theater of the absurd" as neither accomplishes the goal of making Amtrak travel as safe as flying. Why am I lesser a citizen that I don't deserve the same level of protection as an airline passenger.

So, since 99.9% of the members of this forum are probably pretty serious raifans, shouldn't they be asking AMTRAK, TSA and elected representatives WHY we don't have the same level of security as airline passengers. Or are most members comfy with the idea of possibly going BOOM.

I am disappointed with you that you think so little of me to not read the sources I provided. That were very informative and the security expert info provided very good insight. Below is an excerpt from his piece

Security is a trade-off; we have to weigh the security we get against the price we pay for it. Better trade-offs are to spend money on intelligence and analysis, investigation

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. I agree. No groping, no back scatter booths with some health side effects as discovered by independent researchers, no taking off shoes. Lets use intel/analysis to investigate before you show up

Why does Amtrak not have CAPPS2 ? Why aren't ticket purchases analysed at POS. ? DHS should be providing the assets (money) to make Amtrak equal to the safety of flying passengers.

That would make it safer than it is now. Safer, NOT safe. In documents that were seized at the Bin Laden raid/attack/assassination supposed were plans for train attacks. Of course the government would never lie to us.

Speaking of Border Patrol, why do we not have their system. On 5/13/2010 I entered the U.S. from Canada at Sault Ste Marie, Ontario with my motor coach towing my pick up truck. Gave the U.S. Border agent our passports. As he reviewed them he engaged me in idle chit chat about where I had been, what did I do, was I bringing back this or that continuously looking at a screen. After about 60 seconds he said " Thank you MASTER CHIEF, have a nice day and welcome back" I pulled away thinking nothing of it until I got about a mile away. How did he know I was a master chief or was ever in the Navy? We didn't discuss it. I didn't have my Navy hat on. I never submitted any military paperwork when I applied for our passports.

Then he hit me. ECHELON. Read about it. It's now public knowledge. It must have branched off into other data gathering arenas. He was chit chatting while he waited for all "my stuff to load up. So obviously he knew everything about me. Why is Amtrak not hooked up to his system or CAPPS2. Again should I not feel as safe (relatively speaking) as the airline passenger. I think I should.

Which brings us back to our original discussion. What is the purpose presently of checking IDs at ticket office/baggage check in and on board. This is no purpose. it is the "theater of the absurb". And as you stated, you feel the uselessness of the checks. So it appears we agree. Now, where do we go from here.

NAVYBLUE

 

[eagle628]

So, since 99.9% of the members of this forum are probably pretty serious raifans, shouldn't they be asking AMTRAK, TSA and elected representatives WHY we don't have the same level of security as airline passengers. Or are most members comfy with the idea of possibly going BOOM.

Actually, I am more comfortable running the extremely small risk of going boom than I am submitting to additional security. The fact that there haven't been any successful terrorist attacks on board trains in the entire history of Amtrak (to my knowledge) suggests that either Amtrak's policy of deterrence works or that no one is interested in attacking trains, in which case all the security in the world wouldn't accomplish anything more.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Actually, I am more comfortable running the extremely small risk of going boom than I am submitting to additional security. The fact that there haven't been any successful terrorist attacks on board trains in the entire history of Amtrak (to my knowledge) suggests that either Amtrak's policy of deterrence works or that no one is interested in attacking trains, in which case all the security in the world wouldn't accomplish anything more.

What about the Sunset Limited's Gila Bend incident on Monday, October 9th, 1995?

 

[TimePeace]

>>Easy man, you got me and Maine Rider mixed up in your reply. I have NO idea what he is talking about unless he is doing a "rant" and trying to do an imitation of me. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If you know what he is talking about please enlighten me.<<

Imitation yes - flattery, no... This board is egalitarian and has a place for everything, including political rants, and including making fun of them. As you may guess, I lean liberal as do a majority of folks who visit here. But I support everyone's right to their opinion, including my right to make fun of political rants disguised as "train talk."

However, my favorite use of the forum is to ask (and answer) questions about the ins and outs of riding on Amtrak. It has been invaluable to me in getting the best fares and connections - and I have tried to be helpful in sharing information with new riders who have questions that I can answer.

>>No confusion, Maine Rider is a retired E-9 as well.<<

Not true. I never made it beyond E-3. (I passed the test for E-4 and was recommended by the Musician-Chief who was in charge of my band - but by the time the promotions came thru, we had a new chief. He called me into his office, put away his bottle of whiskey, and grinned as he tore up my promotion papers in front of me. This was 1971.)

 

[NAVYBLUE]

>>Easy man, you got me and Maine Rider mixed up in your reply. I have NO idea what he is talking about unless he is doing a "rant" and trying to do an imitation of me. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If you know what he is talking about please enlighten me.<<

Imitation yes - flattery, no... This board is egalitarian and has a place for everything, including political rants, and including making fun of them. As you may guess, I lean liberal as do a majority of folks who visit here. But I support everyone's right to their opinion, including my right to make fun of political rants disguised as "train talk."

However, my favorite use of the forum is to ask (and answer) questions about the ins and outs of riding on Amtrak. It has been invaluable to me in getting the best fares and connections - and I have tried to be helpful in sharing information with new riders who have questions that I can answer.

>>No confusion, Maine Rider is a retired E-9 as well.<<

Not true. I never made it beyond E-3. (I passed the test for E-4 and was recommended by the Musician-Chief who was in charge of my band - but by the time the promotions came thru, we had a new chief. He called me into his office, put away his bottle of whiskey, and grinned as he tore up my promotion papers in front of me. This was 1971.)

That was an E7, NOT a chief. There is a difference. As a Chief, Senior Chief and Master Chief one of my jobs and fellow khaki were to try to cut them off at the knees and stop their career before they could do any more damage to the Navy. I will match the "meritocracy" advancement system of the 1980-present against any civilian company where who you know and who you bl** sometime seems more important than what you know and what you can do.

I have been on hundreds of local, regional and national NAVY selection boards and was an advancement exam writer for (3) years. It's a new Navy. We have a low tolerance for racial, sexual harassment and if caught, it is a career killer. I have seen stuff in my civilian careers that would get you demoted or court martialed. Do we have room to get better. Yep.

NAVYBLUE

 

[eagle628]

Actually, I am more comfortable running the extremely small risk of going boom than I am submitting to additional security. The fact that there haven't been any successful terrorist attacks on board trains in the entire history of Amtrak (to my knowledge) suggests that either Amtrak's policy of deterrence works or that no one is interested in attacking trains, in which case all the security in the world wouldn't accomplish anything more.

What about the Sunset Limited's Gila Bend incident on Monday, October 9th, 1995?

Well yeah, that was why I added the qualifier of "on board trains," where Amtrak is in charge of the security.

 

[Ryan]

Actually, I am more comfortable running the extremely small risk of going boom than I am submitting to additional security.

Exactly. Same thing for the airlines. Nothing is going to make life 100% safe, so make the preventative measures be something that makes sense.

Not true. I never made it beyond E-3

My bad, I confused you with someone else. It's the guy in JAX that was a MCPO.

That was an E7, NOT a chief. There is a difference.

I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. I think that we're all well aware of the difference.

 

[Ispolkom]

Me, I'd be quite happy to show ID to the conductor every time I produced my ticket if said conductor would be willing to sell me a sleeper upgrade. Since I've never found a conductor willing to sell an upgrade, I'm not interested in security theater.

I guess this shows that while I'm not willing to trade liberty for temporary security, I'm willing to trade it for a roomette. At least if coach is crowded with cellphone users and smokers.

 

[AlanB]

Navy,

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them.

This forum has several old posts from me talking about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of implementing the ID checks. I'm on record multiple times and in various places about the uselessness of the checks. I didn't need to look at any report that you linked to, and honestly and frankly didn't even have time to look at your links, to know that its useless. As I've stated in some of my older posts, our US Border Patrol agents who receive intense training on ID's and fraud of same were having a mega-hard time of spotting problems. This is one reason, along with some theatrics IMHO, that we now need passports to cross the border with Canada.

If the border patrol with all of their training is having trouble picking out fake ID's, there is no way that an Amtrak conductor who has received zero training by the way on ID's is going to spot a fake ID.

As I expected, you wouldn't answer the question with a yes or no.

So, I will answer it for you. The answer is no. Random or 100% ID/ticket checks at the ticket check/baggage or by an onboard Amtrak employee would not stop my scenario from happening in present day America. So, ID checks are not going to prevent me from being blown up. Therefore I am safer on an airplane than an Amtrak train due to the CAPPS2 system

While I freely admit that I did not give you the simple answer that you wanted, had you actually read my reply my answer would have been quite clear. So I've underlined and bolded the key, critical parts of my answer. If something is "useless" then clearly its not going to stop things.

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them.[/b]

So, lets now get to the real issue. What is the real purpose of checking for IDs at ticket office/bag check in and/or by onboard employees. Here is a shocker for everyone. I don't know. You did mention Amtrak has agreed to do a random ID check to keep TSA happy and off their back. Someone else mentioned it's to stop stolen tickets from being used. So to me both are "theater of the absurd" as neither accomplishes the goal of making Amtrak travel as safe as flying. Why am I lesser a citizen that I don't deserve the same level of protection as an airline passenger.

The real purpose is simple and two-fold. One, it makes many people feel like they are safer that someone is doing something. Two, it allowed some pencil pusher to justify his high salary to have made it look like we're all safer now.

So, since 99.9% of the members of this forum are probably pretty serious raifans, shouldn't they be asking AMTRAK, TSA and elected representatives WHY we don't have the same level of security as airline passengers. Or are most members comfy with the idea of possibly going BOOM.

I am disappointed with you that you think so little of me to not read the sources I provided. That were very informative and the security expert info provided very good insight. Below is an excerpt from his piece

Here let's review what I actually said:

I didn't need to look at any report that you linked to, and honestly and frankly didn't even have time to look at your links, to know that its useless.

Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer, but I was in a hurry to try and read everything that I needed to read yesterday. And unlike the members here, I do have to read every post. There is no being selective for me, although I will admit that sometimes I just sort of scan longer posts to make sure that nothing jumps out at me.

In any event, I said that I didn't have time to go look at your links. I was at work all day yesterday getting home after 7PM. Some days I have no clients that need me, so I'm online all day. Other days, despite the bad economy, I actually do have work, real work. Not my monitoring 3 rail forums where I'm at least a moderator, if not more. I'm also a moderator on yet another forum, not rail related. And I read a few other forums for fun too. I didn't even get to half the forums that I would normally visit, so I wasn't going to take time to try to read your links due to that lack of time.

It had nothing to do with my respect, or lack thereof, for you. I simply didn't have the time to read them if I wanted to finish with my Administrator duties & reading here.

Next, as I also stated, I didn't even need to read the report either to find out just how useless these ID checks are. As I stated, I've made multiple posts in the past long before you got here with your reports, talking about the uselessness of those ID checks. Again, if trained Border Patrol agents were missing fake ID's, then there is no way that an Amtrak employee who has received absolutely no training at all on ID's is going to spot a fake one. And if real terrorists can get real NJ Driver's Licenses prior to flying planes into the World Trade Center, then there is simply no way that an ID check is going to stop a real terrorist with a real drivers license from blowing up a train.

While not wishing to appear snarky; I figured all that out on my own months ago and again have posted about it more than once, and I didn't need an expert to tell me that I was right.

So again, with limited time and you confirming that the expert told me that I'm right, I didn't go to read the reports. And at this point, since I worked again today, it's unlikely that I'll have time to go read them tonight either. Sorry!

Security is a trade-off; we have to weigh the security we get against the price we pay for it. Better trade-offs are to spend money on intelligence and analysis, investigation

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. I agree. No groping, no back scatter booths with some health side effects as discovered by independent researchers, no taking off shoes. Lets use intel/analysis to investigate before you show up

Why does Amtrak not have CAPPS2 ? Why aren't ticket purchases analysed at POS. ? DHS should be providing the assets (money) to make Amtrak equal to the safety of flying passengers.

While I'll be the first to tell you that more could and should be done, Amtrak does actually wash the names of its passengers with at least one or two security lists. I'm not sure which lists, didn't pay that much attention I guess as I don't recall what I read and usually I do. Sorry!

That would make it safer than it is now. Safer, NOT safe. In documents that were seized at the Bin Laden raid/attack/assassination supposed were plans for train attacks. Of course the government would never lie to us.

Marginally safer at best. This answer will also help to serve to a question you asked in a later post, why are we railfans more up in arms over security onboard?

A terrorist is far more likely to attack a train from the outside than from the inside. As demonstrated quite clearly in Europe a few times, explosives on a train don't amount to all that much. It only takes a small amount of explosives to punch a hole in an airplane. It takes quite a bit more to punch a hole in train. Think of like having a live shell land on the wooden flight decks of our first carriers vs landing on top of a 16 inch gun on a battleship. You're going to get vastly different results in terms of damage to those respective ships.

And even if the terrorist can carry enough explosive to kill 20 or 30 people, it's unlikely that they're going to derail the train.

On the other hand, a terrorist with no ID can place some explosives on the tracks and derail the entire train and probably kill many more people. Especially if they choose to pick the right freight train instead of a passenger train.

Speaking of Border Patrol, why do we not have their system. On 5/13/2010 I entered the U.S. from Canada at Sault Ste Marie, Ontario with my motor coach towing my pick up truck. Gave the U.S. Border agent our passports. As he reviewed them he engaged me in idle chit chat about where I had been, what did I do, was I bringing back this or that continuously looking at a screen. After about 60 seconds he said " Thank you MASTER CHIEF, have a nice day and welcome back" I pulled away thinking nothing of it until I got about a mile away. How did he know I was a master chief or was ever in the Navy? We didn't discuss it. I didn't have my Navy hat on. I never submitted any military paperwork when I applied for our passports.
Then he hit me. ECHELON. Read about it. It's now public knowledge. It must have branched off into other data gathering arenas. He was chit chatting while he waited for all "my stuff to load up. So obviously he knew everything about me. Why is Amtrak not hooked up to his system or CAPPS2. Again should I not feel as safe (relatively speaking) as the airline passenger. I think I should.

Probably because like the rest of Government, most departments don't talk to one another and don't want to share info with another. It's a classic example of he who has the most toys wins. If I keep everything to myself, I keep my job, get to hire more people, and make my department and therefore my position more secure.

Which brings us back to our original discussion. What is the purpose presently of checking IDs at ticket office/baggage check in and on board. This is no purpose. it is the "theater of the absurb". And as you stated, you feel the uselessness of the checks. So it appears we agree. Now, where do we go from here.

Agreed, it's all theatrics. It's a feel good and someone gets to smile and point out that they made things safer by doing something! The fact that the something accomplishes nothing doesn't matter, they did something.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

Navy,

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them.

This forum has several old posts from me talking about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of implementing the ID checks. I'm on record multiple times and in various places about the uselessness of the checks. I didn't need to look at any report that you linked to, and honestly and frankly didn't even have time to look at your links, to know that its useless. As I've stated in some of my older posts, our US Border Patrol agents who receive intense training on ID's and fraud of same were having a mega-hard time of spotting problems. This is one reason, along with some theatrics IMHO, that we now need passports to cross the border with Canada.

If the border patrol with all of their training is having trouble picking out fake ID's, there is no way that an Amtrak conductor who has received zero training by the way on ID's is going to spot a fake ID.

As I expected, you wouldn't answer the question with a yes or no.

So, I will answer it for you. The answer is no. Random or 100% ID/ticket checks at the ticket check/baggage or by an onboard Amtrak employee would not stop my scenario from happening in present day America. So, ID checks are not going to prevent me from being blown up. Therefore I am safer on an airplane than an Amtrak train due to the CAPPS2 system

While I freely admit that I did not give you the simple answer that you wanted, had you actually read my reply my answer would have been quite clear. So I've underlined and bolded the key, critical parts of my answer. If something is "useless" then clearly its not going to stop things.

I wasn't debating the wisdom of the onboard ID checks, simply explaining how they're supposed to work and the "reasons" right or wrong behind them.[/b]

So, lets now get to the real issue. What is the real purpose of checking for IDs at ticket office/bag check in and/or by onboard employees. Here is a shocker for everyone. I don't know. You did mention Amtrak has agreed to do a random ID check to keep TSA happy and off their back. Someone else mentioned it's to stop stolen tickets from being used. So to me both are "theater of the absurd" as neither accomplishes the goal of making Amtrak travel as safe as flying. Why am I lesser a citizen that I don't deserve the same level of protection as an airline passenger.

The real purpose is simple and two-fold. One, it makes many people feel like they are safer that someone is doing something. Two, it allowed some pencil pusher to justify his high salary to have made it look like we're all safer now.

So, since 99.9% of the members of this forum are probably pretty serious raifans, shouldn't they be asking AMTRAK, TSA and elected representatives WHY we don't have the same level of security as airline passengers. Or are most members comfy with the idea of possibly going BOOM.

I am disappointed with you that you think so little of me to not read the sources I provided. That were very informative and the security expert info provided very good insight. Below is an excerpt from his piece

Here let's review what I actually said:

I didn't need to look at any report that you linked to, and honestly and frankly didn't even have time to look at your links, to know that its useless.

Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer, but I was in a hurry to try and read everything that I needed to read yesterday. And unlike the members here, I do have to read every post. There is no being selective for me, although I will admit that sometimes I just sort of scan longer posts to make sure that nothing jumps out at me.

In any event, I said that I didn't have time to go look at your links. I was at work all day yesterday getting home after 7PM. Some days I have no clients that need me, so I'm online all day. Other days, despite the bad economy, I actually do have work, real work. Not my monitoring 3 rail forums where I'm at least a moderator, if not more. I'm also a moderator on yet another forum, not rail related. And I read a few other forums for fun too. I didn't even get to half the forums that I would normally visit, so I wasn't going to take time to try to read your links due to that lack of time.

It had nothing to do with my respect, or lack thereof, for you. I simply didn't have the time to read them if I wanted to finish with my Administrator duties & reading here.

Next, as I also stated, I didn't even need to read the report either to find out just how useless these ID checks are. As I stated, I've made multiple posts in the past long before you got here with your reports, talking about the uselessness of those ID checks. Again, if trained Border Patrol agents were missing fake ID's, then there is no way that an Amtrak employee who has received absolutely no training at all on ID's is going to spot a fake one. And if real terrorists can get real NJ Driver's Licenses prior to flying planes into the World Trade Center, then there is simply no way that an ID check is going to stop a real terrorist with a real drivers license from blowing up a train.

While not wishing to appear snarky; I figured all that out on my own months ago and again have posted about it more than once, and I didn't need an expert to tell me that I was right.

So again, with limited time and you confirming that the expert told me that I'm right, I didn't go to read the reports. And at this point, since I worked again today, it's unlikely that I'll have time to go read them tonight either. Sorry!

Security is a trade-off; we have to weigh the security we get against the price we pay for it. Better trade-offs are to spend money on intelligence and analysis, investigation

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. I agree. No groping, no back scatter booths with some health side effects as discovered by independent researchers, no taking off shoes. Lets use intel/analysis to investigate before you show up

Why does Amtrak not have CAPPS2 ? Why aren't ticket purchases analysed at POS. ? DHS should be providing the assets (money) to make Amtrak equal to the safety of flying passengers.

While I'll be the first to tell you that more could and should be done, Amtrak does actually wash the names of its passengers with at least one or two security lists. I'm not sure which lists, didn't pay that much attention I guess as I don't recall what I read and usually I do. Sorry!

That would make it safer than it is now. Safer, NOT safe. In documents that were seized at the Bin Laden raid/attack/assassination supposed were plans for train attacks. Of course the government would never lie to us.

Marginally safer at best. This answer will also help to serve to a question you asked in a later post, why are we railfans more up in arms over security onboard?

A terrorist is far more likely to attack a train from the outside than from the inside. As demonstrated quite clearly in Europe a few times, explosives on a train don't amount to all that much. It only takes a small amount of explosives to punch a hole in an airplane. It takes quite a bit more to punch a hole in train. Think of like having a live shell land on the wooden flight decks of our first carriers vs landing on top of a 16 inch gun on a battleship. You're going to get vastly different results in terms of damage to those respective ships.

And even if the terrorist can carry enough explosive to kill 20 or 30 people, it's unlikely that they're going to derail the train.

On the other hand, a terrorist with no ID can place some explosives on the tracks and derail the entire train and probably kill many more people. Especially if they choose to pick the right freight train instead of a passenger train.

Speaking of Border Patrol, why do we not have their system. On 5/13/2010 I entered the U.S. from Canada at Sault Ste Marie, Ontario with my motor coach towing my pick up truck. Gave the U.S. Border agent our passports. As he reviewed them he engaged me in idle chit chat about where I had been, what did I do, was I bringing back this or that continuously looking at a screen. After about 60 seconds he said " Thank you MASTER CHIEF, have a nice day and welcome back" I pulled away thinking nothing of it until I got about a mile away. How did he know I was a master chief or was ever in the Navy? We didn't discuss it. I didn't have my Navy hat on. I never submitted any military paperwork when I applied for our passports.
Then he hit me. ECHELON. Read about it. It's now public knowledge. It must have branched off into other data gathering arenas. He was chit chatting while he waited for all "my stuff to load up. So obviously he knew everything about me. Why is Amtrak not hooked up to his system or CAPPS2. Again should I not feel as safe (relatively speaking) as the airline passenger. I think I should.

Probably because like the rest of Government, most departments don't talk to one another and don't want to share info with another. It's a classic example of he who has the most toys wins. If I keep everything to myself, I keep my job, get to hire more people, and make my department and therefore my position more secure.

Which brings us back to our original discussion. What is the purpose presently of checking IDs at ticket office/baggage check in and on board. This is no purpose. it is the "theater of the absurb". And as you stated, you feel the uselessness of the checks. So it appears we agree. Now, where do we go from here.

Agreed, it's all theatrics. It's a feel good and someone gets to smile and point out that they made things safer by doing something! The fact that the something accomplishes nothing doesn't matter, they did something.

Alan,

Thanks for the reply. I agree with 100% of what you just said. I 'think" we are on the same page. I don't know your past thoughts because I don't know if there is a way for me to tell the forum show me all of AlanB's posts in last 6 months, 12 months to get a person's flavor on a particular subject.

We've been dancing, you the rhumba me a slow dance and I think we are now in step. Sorry for the lousy analogy.

Sorry for the "push". Didn't realize you are trying to drain the swamp and fighting (8) alligators at the same time.

NAVYBLUE

 

[Ryan]

I don't know your past thoughts because I don't know if there is a way for me to tell the forum show me all of AlanB's posts in last 6 months, 12 months to get a person's flavor on a particular subject.

Click on AlanB's name.

Click on "My Content" in the left hand column.

As if by magic, all of his posts should appear.