RichardK
Service Attendant
It is 16 hours down. Now that is ridiculous.
Silver Star stuck for more than 12 hours
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Late trains get later -- just as true now as it was when I first started riding trains in the 1950s.
* ALX * * 1 325P * 327P Departed: 2 minutes late.
* RVR 1 509P 1 519P 648A 712A Departed: 13 hours and 53 minutes late.
Per the Status Maps. Basically, they lost 14 hours before and at RVR, and did their best to imitate the Shoreliner...
I agree that there's a lot of fault to be had. In a case like this, IMHO, the procedure ought to be to get the train to a station (if at all possible) and, if there's a major meltdown like this, declare a minimum departure time so folks can step away (even to the neighboring McDonalds or equivalent) and get a bite.
Two things probably kept CSX off Amtrak's case:
(1) It was a Sunday on a holiday weekend.
(2) There was clearly enough space to let 87 and 157 around the stalled train without much delay. It honestly sounds like they were able to get the train into a siding from what they're saying.
(Of course, I'm now imagining being on this train on my way back from NYC or DC and getting surprised not only with dinner but potentially breakfast on board.)
* RVR 1 509P 1 519P 648A 712A Departed: 13 hours and 53 minutes late.
Per the Status Maps. Basically, they lost 14 hours before and at RVR, and did their best to imitate the Shoreliner...
I agree that there's a lot of fault to be had. In a case like this, IMHO, the procedure ought to be to get the train to a station (if at all possible) and, if there's a major meltdown like this, declare a minimum departure time so folks can step away (even to the neighboring McDonalds or equivalent) and get a bite.
Two things probably kept CSX off Amtrak's case:
(1) It was a Sunday on a holiday weekend.
(2) There was clearly enough space to let 87 and 157 around the stalled train without much delay. It honestly sounds like they were able to get the train into a siding from what they're saying.
(Of course, I'm now imagining being on this train on my way back from NYC or DC and getting surprised not only with dinner but potentially breakfast on board.)
henryj
Conductor
All I can add is I am glad I wasn't on it. However, if I had been I would have been in a sleeper and just slept through it all. It would be frustrating to wake up in the morning to find you are still in the same place as the night before. But, hey you get to see part of the route in daylight that you wouldn't normally have and you get a refund.
crescent2
Conductor
As with most delays, how easily they're tolerated depends a lot on individual circumstances. If you don't have anywhere else you really need to be, that's one thing, but if you are under any sort of time constraints, it's a big deal. I'd guess most people have someplace they need to be. Fortunately, our Amtrak trips weren't under time constraints, but that's probably the exception.
Regardless, I'm surprised the passengers were held hostage for 12 hours with a station so close.
Regardless, I'm surprised the passengers were held hostage for 12 hours with a station so close.
henryj
Conductor
In these days of zero tolerance and strict adherence to the 'rules' no one is allowed to think freely or use initiative to solve a crisis. If it isn't in the rule book you just boot it up the ladder for an answer. And with Amtrak the 'ladder' is long and complicated and CSX is in the loop also. And I am sure no where is a frozen axle found in any rule book and greasing the rails so it can slide onto a siding isn't either. So you get this type of mess. Passengers are tolerant if they understand what is going on and if the on board staff handles it professionally, so I doubt if many will say 'never again'. If they did the airlines would be out of business. lol.
VentureForth
Engineer
What was the case about three years ago in the Winter where a train was stuck in the snow like 1/2 mile PAST a station, and couldn't back into it and they wouldn't let the pax off then either?
crescent2
Conductor
So true! Sometimes no one is willing to take the responsibility for actually making a decision that isn't explicitly in the "rules."
Where the airlines have an advantage over Amtrak, though, is that the airlines are a necessity for business travelers and others who need to travel far in a timely manner. Amtrak is more of an optional way to travel.
The difficulty is how to get the "hostages" off the train safely. It would have had to have been done at a highway crossing so that the passengers would have someplace safe to step down to. They would have had to have been herded to a series of buses standing there waiting for them. They could not be allowed to wander off on their own, especially at night because some of them would surely get injured or killed, especially if they tried to cross the tracks to get to the fast-food restaurant that is so close by. The train would have to be kept clear of the crossing until the last possible moment before unloading because highway crossings can't be kept blocked for long periods of time. There would be no easy way to get the wheel-chair passenger off the train at the crossing. And on and on...
I'm not making excuses. It's all doable, but it's just not as easy as some people think it is.
jb
The breakdown and 12 hour very slow trip to RVR is getting press coverage: WAMU article Passengers On Stranded Amtrak Train Dealt With No Toilets, Intermittent A/C. Still would be interested in a followup from Amtrak, explaining why it was handled this way.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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What surprises me is that there are 6 to 7 passenger trains a day that pass by that spot in each direction. For some reason they could not use any one of those as a rescue train over a 12 or 14 hour period?
How do you get the passengers from one train to the other? Stepping down into the ballast with luggage and kids is not an option. Lower the gang plank from one train to the other? There isn't one. Sure sometimes we've seen a bench seat removed and suspended from one train to the other, but is it safe? In the dark? With no handrails?
What about crowd control? Everyone who was on 91 would try to crowd onto the very FIRST rescue train that came along. Ever been on a SINGLE train that happened to be carrying TWO trainloads of people? Where do you put them all?
jb
The point is a 12 hour delay is wrong.
The story that Amtrak gave out is false.
They swap out dinning cars, at Richmond.
You could not move the equipment but they do.
You could not swap/drop the car, but they do.
Where did the new dinning car come from?
This train was held for 12 hours because someone said hold the train.
That the part I have issues with.
The story that Amtrak gave out is false.
They swap out dinning cars, at Richmond.
You could not move the equipment but they do.
You could not swap/drop the car, but they do.
Where did the new dinning car come from?
This train was held for 12 hours because someone said hold the train.
That the part I have issues with.
jis
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Since they do such cross train transfers using long bridge plates laid across from the door of one train to another, bridge plates that have hand railings, I thought that neat technology is transferable south of Washington DC too. but maybe I am wrong. :unsure: I have crossed such bridge plates at least half a dozen times so far to get from a failed train to a rescue train on the NEC.
Coming to think of it, at least once I have even gone through a transfer which involved getting off onto the ballast and getting on the other train, but that was just one time and I don;t remember exactly why it had to be done that way that time.
On the NEC they are fully equipped to do such transfers and each Food Service car carries one of these long bridge plates.
It also turns out that the consist had been moved from the Main Line into a siding, which would have made it possible to simply unhook the good cars from both ends and tack them onto 97 that came by later that day, with a little bit of planning.
There is very little excuse for what happened, and I am not surprised that Amtrak remains quite mum about any explanation of why they could not deal with this better. I would not be surprised if Mica or someone of that ilk brings this up in some hearing in the near future.
Past experience shows that there is no problem with crowd control. The last such rescue I was involved in as a result of a trespasser strike just outside of Briston PA involved transferring some 1000 passengers in three separate groups to three separate trains. It turned out that only two transfers were needed, as the train was released just before the third and last transfer was to begin, and that was to be to an Acela to boot! I have been rescued by more or less full Regionals and Acelas as well as empty deadhead NJT EMUs that happened to be in the area. So such is done quite routinely on the NEC. Yeah so you go SRO to the next stop, but at least you don;t remain stranded.
The point is, it is easy to come up with an endless list of why something cannot be done (something that we rail aficionados seem to be very good at I might add
) . but there is nothing on your list that is insurmountable at all, just from previous experience on Amtrak. A big FAIL for Amtrak on this one. Heck even a few people I know at Amtrak are shaking their heads in disbelief on this one. :unsure:
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As jis has stated earlier, they do move passengers from one train to another on the NEC. He's been on more than one that have had that done. I was on a train that was delayed because a train ahead of us (going the opposite direction) was doing just that.
I myself am wondering what role CSX had in all of this. With a busy mainline tied up with a dead train, I would imagine the first thing they would do is get the dead train to a siding and then let all of the other delayed trains go. If you don't do that you could have train crews "expiring" all over the place.
Looking forward to the truth on this one.
jb
Looking forward to the truth on this one.
jb
jis
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Here's another interesting observation from elsewhere on the internet on this subject (apparently from someone whose caps-lock key is stuck ):
):Incidentally, the consist was finally dragged into a siding sometime after midnight. So it sat blocking one of the mains all that time.
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TVRM610
Conductor
If the train could move to a siding, it should have been able to be moved at slow speed to Richmond.
jis
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Again from what I have heard from some people in the know. They could not get the wheel to move. So they greased the track and dragged it into the siding slowly with that wheel sliding instead of rolling along the track. I understand that it would have been dangerous to operate a train in that fashion with a full load of passengers over 3 miles at any speed.
As for how they finally managed to move to Richmond minus the bad ordered car I am not sure, but several methods come to mind.
As for how they finally managed to move to Richmond minus the bad ordered car I am not sure, but several methods come to mind.
TVRM610
Conductor
Interesting...
I'm sure the crew wasn't anticipating a 12 hour delay. I think "could not uncouple the dining car" means "CSX would not let them tie up the main any longer" - just my guess now.
I'm sure the crew wasn't anticipating a 12 hour delay. I think "could not uncouple the dining car" means "CSX would not let them tie up the main any longer" - just my guess now.
VentureForth
Engineer
What did they do with the crew when their time ran out?
While I'd rather be stuck on a train than a plane (large guy, so having actual room is nice,) there is very little good reason that I can see that Amtrak had to delay this train 12 hours to get it going. Cross-car transfer to another train, unhook the dining car, something. (Why couldn't they just get all the passengers on one end of the dining car and leave the rest of the consist on the other side of the dining car behind?)
Many of Amtrak's delays are outside of their control. Having ones like this that are fully in their control (at least with the information at hand) and they still can't find a way to make something happen before 12 hours came along is deplorable.
Many of Amtrak's delays are outside of their control. Having ones like this that are fully in their control (at least with the information at hand) and they still can't find a way to make something happen before 12 hours came along is deplorable.
calwatch
Lead Service Attendant
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The other thing is, given how close this was to a station, I'm surprised someone just didn't say to heck with it and self evacuate. That has happened on Washington Metro numerous times - the train gets stuck somewhere for 2 or 3 hours, someone faints or has an anxiety attack, and they just pull the emergency exit and leave.
aidancheddar
Train Attendant
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I saw a Facebook post that captured the Silver Star coming in 14hrs late.
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