Need to ashcan current EB and have a CHI to MSP route

[AlanB]

Alan,

I agree with you in general. This did get me to thinking about ways to use this to maintain services that might get cut when the 2/3 rule kicks in (in this case, we'd be talking about pairing extant services and getting the states to maintain the current subsidy levels), but in those cases, I think the shenanigans would be justified if the alternative is more or less a service collapse in some areas. Let's face it: Some states aren't going to cut the check for some routes, and I think history has shown that cutting routes too badly leads to knock-on effects. In the case of the CHI-MSP trick, I'm not sure how the revenue would compare to the accrued costs...as I noted, you'd probably get at least some through business out of the deal in any of these events, and the idea of running through cars in Chicago (even just on the south side of the station) to KCY and STL probably isn't a bad one if you've got trains that would link well (case in point: There used to be CHI-DET overnight trains, and CHI-KCY is probably long enough for one). I would also suggest that

I'm not sure just how much through business one might actually get. I don't see this being anything close to say NYP for example or even LA.

Serious question: Is there a yard in KCY? I know some of the STL-KCY trains never see Chicago, but doing car exchanges to get the cars into CHI would make sense. Of course, you could do the same thing here: Switch different cars for different cars in CHI when you need to do maintenance. Yes, it would resemble a very strange card game and require a bit of planning ahead to make swaps work, but assuming that you wanted to do some sort of exchange (namely, sleepers for coaches), you'd just "deal out" different coaches each time the train comes through town.

Not for servicing trains, no. Amtrak sends the MORR trainsets north from STL as Lincoln trains to rotate the cars through Chicago. No MORR "trainset" runs that route only, they all interline with the Lincoln trains AFAIK.

Also, in CUS, couldn't you theoretically "dock" a train on one side of the station to offload passengers, move it through one of the not-passenger-accessible tracks, and then "re-dock" it on the other side? Not logistically pretty, but if you're talking about the train having a few hours in CHI, you could run this easily enough (if the train gets in at 5:00, give people until 5:30 to detrain and then plan on 45 minutes to move the train around, and the train is relocated by 6:30 even if you run behind...or just declare the arrival time to be 6:00 AM and move the train around the yard as it comes in).

There are only two tracks on the west side of CUS that run through. And the second track I believe on the south side would require one to basically move the train into the yard and then back up into the south gates. They'd have to do the reverse going north. Not a pretty move at all.

 

[guest]

How about rerouting the EB through Madison?

 

[Trogdor]

How about rerouting the EB through Madison?

There aren't any good tracks through Madison. The cancelled HSR project would have improved the tracks well enough to operate trains at 110 mph, but right now it's just slow-going freight.

Even had the HSR project gone through with its extension to Minneapolis, the Empire Builder still would have operated the existing route. With the project killed, there's no chance of seeing the Builder serve Madison.

 

[rrdude]

I think the 400-mile market is more than workable, and it's been gaining ground over the last few years due to the airline issues; look at the Carolinans, the Cascades, the NEC, and some of the MW and CA lines.

Everything comes down to either funding bottlenecks or equipment bottlenecks...and the latter are more of a problem since it takes a long time to get new equipment out.

I don't think that is the problem. Amtrak has had at least two long distance trains on this route in the past and pre-Amtrak many more. The problem is I counted almost 50 flights a day at $176 for full fare. That's more than two an hour. Greyhound lists 7 buses a day at full fare of $58. And they do the route faster than Amtrak in some cases. Amtrak's fare is $128 for a once a day train that is unreliable. Amtrak has decided to not serve this market regardless of equipment issues. And even if they did, two or three trains a day is all they could reasonably offer. Plus they have abandoned the downtown stations in Minneapolis and St Paul in favor of the station in the middle of no where. I believe a night train on this route would just be a looser even if the equipment was available. Even though there would be no need for a diner, the sleeper would not earn enough to make it a viable alternative.

For the day trains, you would be tying up two to four sets of equipment that costs many millions of dollars that could only make one one way trip a day. They might be able to make it on this route if they could turn the equipment fast enough to make a round trip each day as the CB&Q used to do.

Like I said, it's logistics screwing up the markets, not demand. 5-10 years ago, I'd say that you couldn't have made a lot of things work, but they're basically bringing the Three Rivers back as a subset of the Capitol Limited. The market has changed over the last decade. Not fundamentally, but there's been a shift, and I think that reasonably reliable trains on runs up to about 14-16 hours (if they're overnight; you've got substantially lower caps on daylight runs) will sell a fair number of tickets in most markets. I think the Lynchburger shows that...it's one year in and it has the highest per-passenger revenue of any train in America. There are a lot of markets Amtrak could make a good run at if it could get a good schedule working...it's just that you often need 2-3 trains per day in each direction to make people willing to take it (I think the boost on the Piedmont was flexibility-related rather than visibility-related, and such flexibility is often what airlines tout..."X flights per day/week to Y destination").

BINGO!

 

[rtabern]

I also would like to see a seperate train run from CHI-MSP... it could even be a daytrip with single level equipment if need be. I mean if it left CHI at 7:15AM -- it would get to MSP by 3:30PM. THAT would be nice.

But, I know that would take a lot of planning, state budget battles, yadda, yadda.

The thing I would like to see in the more immediate future is Amtrak running service between CHI and MSP on days that there are service disruptions out west. Since I dont work for Amtrak, I dont know all the logistics problems of that -- but it seems there is a big demand for passengers just going from CHI to MSP... and it seems silly their travel plans get disrupted for things happening out in North Dakota or Montana.

Why not run 4 coaches, a SSL, and a Cross Country Cafe from CHI to MSP as #7 -- on days like 1/1 or 1/2???

When there were problems out west with the Coast Starlight, there was trunkated trains doing that... I think that would be a great idea when there are service disruptions west of MSP. Dont totally cancel the train -- run a short train still. Something is better than Nothing... There is a small commisary at MSP and there is a wye there to turn the train.

 

[Trogdor]

Why not run 4 coaches, a SSL, and a Cross Country Cafe from CHI to MSP as #7 -- on days like 1/1 or 1/2???

That is what happened. Yesterday, a stub train operated CHI-MSP, and that train is coming back (on time) today.

 

[henryj]

I also would like to see a seperate train run from CHI-MSP... it could even be a daytrip with single level equipment if need be. I mean if it left CHI at 7:15AM -- it would get to MSP by 3:30PM. THAT would be nice.

But, I know that would take a lot of planning, state budget battles, yadda, yadda.

The thing I would like to see in the more immediate future is Amtrak running service between CHI and MSP on days that there are service disruptions out west. Since I dont work for Amtrak, I dont know all the logistics problems of that -- but it seems there is a big demand for passengers just going from CHI to MSP... and it seems silly their travel plans get disrupted for things happening out in North Dakota or Montana.

Why not run 4 coaches, a SSL, and a Cross Country Cafe from CHI to MSP as #7 -- on days like 1/1 or 1/2???

There should really be no problem doing any of this if Amtrak had the desire. Chicago is a huge hub with plenty of equipment. Think about it. Four Lincoln Service trains a day to St Louis, Seven trains a day to Milwaukee plus the Wolverine/Blue Water service, The ilini/Saluki, the Illnois Zephyr/Calr Sandburg and so on. All you have to do is take some of this equipment and run it through to MSP a couple of times a day and you have your Chi/Twin Cities service. Chi to Quincy is 258 miles. Chi to Carbondale is 309 miles. Chi to St Louis is 284 miles and on the KC is 567. So what's the problem with a 418 mile route? The problem is the route falls under the Amtrak threshold of 'state supported' trains. So unless Illinois, Wisconsin and Minnesota get behind it there won't be any changes. You need to put some pressure on your state reps, particularly in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

 

[crazyvacationer]

Just a wierd thought - and no time spent thinking schedules.

When I look at the map, everything from MSP goes to CHI and then CHI it branches out.

How about a circle route? Two trains - going opposite directions.

CHI - in MO or IA - MSP - CHI

This would give MSP a line to the south w/o going through CHI, and provide MSP-CHI service.

 

[guest]

How about rerouting the EB through Madison?

There aren't any good tracks through Madison. The cancelled HSR project would have improved the tracks well enough to operate trains at 110 mph, but right now it's just slow-going freight.

Even had the HSR project gone through with its extension to Minneapolis, the Empire Builder still would have operated the existing route. With the project killed, there's no chance of seeing the Builder serve Madison.

Yeah, it does seem there are a lot of grade crossings in and around downtown Madison going in and out of Monona Terrace where the city had planned to build the new station.

 

[Anderson]

Just a wierd thought - and no time spent thinking schedules.

When I look at the map, everything from MSP goes to CHI and then CHI it branches out.

How about a circle route? Two trains - going opposite directions.

CHI - in MO or IA - MSP - CHI

This would give MSP a line to the south w/o going through CHI, and provide MSP-CHI service.

You triggered a chain of thought: There is a routing through Chicago you could probably work out to get an MSP-bound train out the south side of Union Station. It would involve a mess of negotiating...probably with the Belt Railroad of Chicago (BRC) and the Canadian National (CN). You're probably adding time to a trip, but again...if MSP were the overnight segment, this isn't an issue.

Circling back around (pun intended), CHI-IND-STL actually comes to mind as a theoretical "circle" route to supplement the Hoosier State/Cardinal: Down to STL in the morning, STL-IND in the afternoon, and IND-CHI in the evening (and the reverse). It's a bit under 750 miles, but I think this would be a decent one to throw at the states when times improve: You'd get IND-STL service, you'd get decent IND-CHI service, and you could probably use the non-STL-KCY trains to make this route work. I'll go ahead and say that I highly suspect that the STL-IND run would be the "ugly duckling" if you don't have any through cars to/from the Cardinal (and I don't even want to think about the logistics of passing cars from the Cardinal to the Loop to the MORR). Assuming you strictly ran the loop, departures at 7 AM with an average speed (stops included) of 45 MPH would get the train back about 11:30 PM or so...actually a substantial improvement on the current IND-CHI service in terms of timing.

Assuming you wanted to do this, I think you'd only need two new trainsets: Just start one trainset in CHI, one in STL, and one in IND each day going each way. Two of the six would be from the STL-CHI run and two would be the Hoosier State set. When you need to bring them in for maintenance, you swap a set out in Chicago. You've already got staff spending the night in IND and STL as it stands, so...this isn't much of a leap. You could also take a car or two off the Cardinal to STL and return the cars the same day on the evening train a la the Boston leg of the LSL.

Edit: I hate getting these bugs in my mind. Ok, sample timetable:

Depart CHI: 7:00 AM (currently train 301)

Arrive STL: 12:20 PM (ditto)

Depart STL: 12:50 PM

Arrive IND: 5:00 PM

Depart IND: 5:30 PM

Arrive CHI: 10:30 PM

All times are Central.

Depart CHI: 7:00 AM

Arrive IND: 12:00 PM

Depart IND: 12:30 PM

Arrive STL: 5:00 PM

Depart STL: 5:30 PM (Currently 306)

Arrive CHI: 11:10 PM (Ditto)

All times are Central.

I'm assuming about four and a half hours for the IND-STL segment. Once the CHI-STL line gets upgraded, you could probably knock 20 minutes off of that segment and give it to STL-IND for buffer (that would give you five hours to work with).