Hoosier State in Jeopardy

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You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?
 
You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?
Why would anyone fund a four day a week trip? 8 daily round trips has a chance of funding, a poorly timed semi-weekly service doesn't.
 
You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?
Why would anyone fund a four day a week trip? 8 daily round trips has a chance of funding, a poorly timed semi-weekly service doesn't.
Seems to me that Indiana is actually getting something of a bargain, that is if you look at the current situation solely on the basis of daily service but only having to pay for four days worth at the state level. The Cardinal runs the missing three days that the Hoosier State does not.

So, right now, IND-CHI has daily Amtrak service, using the same routing, serving the same stations, using two different train names and numbers. I agree, it would be grand to have multi-day service and would probably be a success in a few years time much along the same lines as the California services. But Indiana, as a state, has a looser government and a ****-poor attitude on anything funding-wise. At least they have Zero say on the Cardinal, and I do look forward to that train going daily with full diner and additional sleeping car services by the close of this decade.
 
You don't get any daily anything IND - CHI since it cannot be funded by Amtrak. It has to be funded by Indiana, which is not even willing to fund 4 days a week single trip per day. There is no chance of the Cardinal getting cut at this point anyway, say why even think about it?
At least they have Zero say on the Cardinal, and I do look forward to that train going daily with full diner and additional sleeping car services by the close of this decade.
That's what I was hoping for, that they would have zero say on the Cardinal.
 
Of course, if you cut the Cardinal, you could get eight daily round trips IND-CHI.
How?
Simple. Take two rakes of Cardinal, separate out eight cars, attach one locomotive to each car, and run eight one-car services. What kind of car comes for your service will be decided by a lucky draw. Someday you might get just the cafe-lounge car, someday everyone gets to ride the Viewliner sleeper. Simple.

:p
 
Up until Amtrak started and even after Amtrak, The James Whitcomb Riley was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago. For years it departed Cincinnati at 8:20AM, Indianapolis about 9:45AM and arrived at Central Station in Chicago at about 12:45PM. It to left Central Station returning about 4:00PM got to Indianapolis about 8:45PM and Cincinnati about 11:00PM. If you could have a schedule like that again, the train would do well.
 
Up until Amtrak started and even after Amtrak, The James Whitcomb Riley was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago. For years it departed Cincinnati at 8:20AM, Indianapolis about 9:45AM and arrived at Central Station in Chicago at about 12:45PM. It to left Central Station returning about 4:00PM got to Indianapolis about 8:45PM and Cincinnati about 11:00PM. If you could have a schedule like that again, the train would do well.
Unfortunately, the James Whitcomb Riley route today is a short line where occasional freights plod along at 20 mph. The whole route may not even exist. PC and Conrail just enjoyed ripping out tracks in Indiana.
 
Yes, I know that the former Big Four route from Cincinnati to Kankakee,Il no longer exists. It is too bad that some sort of Railroad Authority was not set up to mothball certain Railroads instead of abandoning them. If a high speed line were ever built from Chicago to Cincinnati that route would have been the most ideal. The rail lines that the Cardinal /Hoosier State uses now were hardly the ideal lines. The former Monon Line from Northern Indiana to Crawfordsville was always a slow railroad and couldn't compare with theNYC or PRR. The Peoria and Easten from Crawfordsville to Indianapolis only carried local passenger trains up until the mid 1950s. We used to ride The Corn Belt LTD from Peoria to Indianapolis to connect to other trains. The only thing limited about that train was the speed!
 
Yes, I know that the former Big Four route from Cincinnati to Kankakee,Il no longer exists. It is too bad that some sort of Railroad Authority was not set up to mothball certain Railroads instead of abandoning them. If a high speed line were ever built from Chicago to Cincinnati that route would have been the most ideal. The rail lines that the Cardinal /Hoosier State uses now were hardly the ideal lines. The former Monon Line from Northern Indiana to Crawfordsville was always a slow railroad and couldn't compare with theNYC or PRR. The Peoria and Easten from Crawfordsville to Indianapolis only carried local passenger trains up until the mid 1950s. We used to ride The Corn Belt LTD from Peoria to Indianapolis to connect to other trains. The only thing limited about that train was the speed!
The PRR from Chicago to Louisville (via Indianapolis) wasn't much better in the 50's. I remember many times boarding at CUS about 10:00-11:00PM and not arriving in Louisville the next morning around 8:00AM. Long trip in a coach, but I loved every minute of it.
 
Up until Amtrak started and even after Amtrak, The James Whitcomb Riley was well patronized between Indianapolis and Chicago. For years it departed Cincinnati at 8:20AM, Indianapolis about 9:45AM and arrived at Central Station in Chicago at about 12:45PM. It to left Central Station returning about 4:00PM got to Indianapolis about 8:45PM and Cincinnati about 11:00PM. If you could have a schedule like that again, the train would do well.
Agreed. I would ride. That's a 3 hr schedule, hopefully achievable after CREATE works its magic in Northern IL. Would be nice if the train hit Bloomie, too. College students are eager train riders. It's nicer than the bus (and there isn't a lot of bus to choose from in Indiana, anyway). Or you could Ambus Bloomington from Indy if the only feasible route to Cincy bypasses it.

Does anyone know if Indiana has sought or received any money to do a planning study to look at alternatives or prepare for HSR?
 
Does anyone know if Indiana has sought or received any money to do a planning study to look at alternatives or prepare for HSR?
Indiana has mostly refused to participate in anything to do with passenger rail. They are not even party to the PRIIA Section 209 agreements. Left to Indiana there'd be no Regional trains in Indiana other than in the northwest corner served by NICTD.
 
Does anyone know if Indiana has sought or received any money to do a planning study to look at alternatives or prepare for HSR?
Indiana has mostly refused to participate in anything to do with passenger rail. They are not even party to the PRIIA Section 209 agreements. Left to Indiana there'd be no Regional trains in Indiana other than in the northwest corner served by NICTD.
And there won't be, after October.
 
Indiana has mostly refused to participate in anything to do with passenger rail. They are not even party to the PRIIA Section 209 agreements. Left to Indiana there'd be no Regional trains in Indiana other than in the northwest corner served by NICTD.
It comes down too that Indiana is not a transit oriented state under the current political leadership. Came across this news on Streetsblog.org: Why Are State Senators Holding Up Indianapolis’s Transit Plans? The city of Indianapolis is looking to hold a referendum on an income tax levy to pay for transit, not rail transit, but better bus transit to start with. But it is encountering resistance in the state legislature. It appears to be related to the IndyConnect transit plan. I have read that Indianapolis is the largest US city that has no rail (or fixed guideway) transit of any kind.

If Indianapolis were to begin to build BRT lines, or a light rail system, add a commuter rail line, it would be a more receptive environment for supporting intercity passenger rail. The Cardinal, whether it stays 3 days a week or someday goes to daily service, provides an asset in that it maintains the passenger rail link, which can be built upon when the political situation changes in the state.

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to take the Hoosier State just so they can check it off their list, they had better do so before October 1.
 
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Reallyt, the Hoosier State is pretty useless other than for shunting cars between CHI and IND. Daily Cardinal service would be far better.
I agree. Even though I am a major passenger rail fan, let's get real. Greyhound and Megabus have 16 departures daily between Chicago and Indianapolis with some fares as low as $14. Either make the Cardinal daily or have a higher frequency daily service if demand and equipment availability will support it.
 
Reallyt, the Hoosier State is pretty useless other than for shunting cars between CHI and IND. Daily Cardinal service would be far better.
I agree. Even though I am a major passenger rail fan, let's get real. Greyhound and Megabus have 16 departures daily between Chicago and Indianapolis with some fares as low as $14. Either make the Cardinal daily or have a higher frequency daily service if demand and equipment availability will support it.
Good riddance. Running a P42 with a 2 car train, taking over 5 hours for a journey that buses do in 3 hr 15 min (Megabus schedules) just does not make sense. Either improve rail infrastructure to have competitive running times and frequency, or get rid of the white elephant and instead focus on routes where rail service actually flourishes.
 
From NARP via Facebook:
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Here's an excellent thorough report on the challenge of saving#Amtrak's Hoosier State, and how doing so would cost only a drop in the bucket in terms of INDOT's budget.

Amtrak has notified the state that it will begin the discontinuance process for the train unless it reaches an agreement with INDOT within two weeks. We need to step up the pressure on INDOT and Governor Mike Pence to save the train--the only feasible starting point for future service improvement. Hoosiers: click here to take action:http://bit.ly/savehoosr

Weighing the Fate of Amtrak's Hoosier State




Indiana stands to lose its Hoosier State Amtrak line from Indianapolis to Chicago if the state fails to identify $3 million in local funding to cover the train's operating costs by a federally imposed Oct. 1 deadline.The deadline has been on the calendar for five years, since Congress passed the Passenger Rail Investment Improvement Act of 2008, which included a provision that required states with passenger rail service lines of less than 750 miles to take financial responsibility for the routes — or lose them.

As part of the PRIIA's mandate of rail-related funding equity among the states, a multi-state working group partnered with Amtrak to devise a "single, nationwide standardized methodology for establishing and allocating the operating and capital costs among the States and Amtrak."

In Indiana's case, that methodology requires the state to cover 80 percent of the Hoosier State's operating costs for fiscal year 2014, or $3 million by Oct. 1.

As vocal groups of activists, from all points on the political spectrum, are rallying in support of the Hoosier State, others — most notably officials with the Gov. Mike Pence administration — are less than enthusiastic about the train's value.

Speaking to an auditorium packed with people at an Aug. 21 Amtrak Summit in Lafayette, Troy Woodruff, chief of staff at the Indiana Department of Transportation, kept his message simple.

"We've approached this with an open mind," Woodruff said. "When [the PRIIA] came through Congress, we opposed it as an unfunded mandate. That position for us hasn't changed. We don't believe this subsidy should be the responsibility of the taxpayers of Indiana."

Woodruff's rough analysis breaks down as follows: The Hoosier State line's operating and equipment expenses of about $3.87 million for the upcoming year are anticipated to be offset with revenue of about $907,000. With an estimated 37,000 riders paying $23 per ticket, that leaves Indiana subsidizing each passenger by about $80, he said.


INDOT spent an estimated $2.1 billion in fiscal year 2012.

In anticipation of the pending deadline, the biennial budget passed by 2013 Indiana General Assembly endowed INDOT with the authority to fund the Hoosier State, but legislators did not require state officials to do so. In line with the "open mind" approach, Woodruff said that INDOT commissioned a study to analyze a variety of options, so officials can consider the cost of doing nothing, funding the line at its current service level or expanding the frequency and speed of the line to accommodate two or four trips a day.

Of course, added service and performance means added cost, Woodruff noted, arguing that revenue increases other states have seen as ridership grows in response to service improvements would not be alter his assessment of the bottom line: "There will be subsidization no matter what ... unless we are willing to charge more (for tickets)."

Though the study has yet to be released, Woodruff offered the audience a basic assessment of his agency's thinking thus far.

"We view this as a bad model, not a good investment," he said. "Not that we won't participate ..."

If keeping the Hoosier State is important to local communities and stakeholders, Woodruff added, "We will come to the table; we can work collaboratively with you, we will have a hand in this. We will be a piece of the pie, a sliver of the pie — but not the whole pie."...
 
As Deadline Approaches, Amtrak’s Indy-Chicago Line Faces Cuts

Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All “state-supported” Amtrak routes — those shorter than 750 miles — are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.


Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, ”states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent,” said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.

Most states seem on track to reach an agreement with Amtrak in time, although some states, including Massachusetts and Connecticut, are still negotiating and may reach out to the Federal Railroad Administration for arbitration.

Indiana faces the most imminent threat to rail service, as Governor Mike Pence appears to be balking at the $3 million needed to maintain the Hoosier Line between Indianapolis and Chicago. The service, which makes one round trip four days a week, also serves a number of small towns and cities. The other three days of the week, Indianapolis-Chicago service is provided by the Cardinal Line, which runs between New York and Chicago and is not facing cuts. Rail advocates are troubled at the prospect of losing daily service, which would diminish the usefulness of the Chicago to Indianapolis route.

About 37,000 passengers use the line annually, costing the federal government about $3.1 million last year, according to WICB Indianapolis. Right now it appears state leaders in Indiana aren’t willing to take on that expense.
 
Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All state-supported Amtrak routes those shorter than 750 miles are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.

Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent, said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.

Most states seem on track to reach an agreement with Amtrak in time, although some states, including Massachusetts and Connecticut, are still negotiating and may reach out to the Federal Railroad Administration for arbitration.
The news update in the article is that 7 out of 19 agreements have now been signed. I'm not clear on "19 agreements in 15 states" part though. I come up with 18 states that have to provide subsidies to maintain corridor services.
If Gov. Pence of IN does decline to pay the subsidy, which sounds likely, then the Hoosier State is terminated and Amtrak has to decide what to do about the Beech Grove facility. The loss of the Hoosier State would provide a strong incentive to make the Cardinal a daily train in a couple of years once the Viewliner II are delivered, by working with VA DRPT to pick up the pace on Buckingham Branch improvements and to be ready to lean on CSX at the STB for clearance for daily service if need be.
 
Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All state-supported Amtrak routes those shorter than 750 miles are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.

Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent, said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.

Most states seem on track to reach an agreement with Amtrak in time, although some states, including Massachusetts and Connecticut, are still negotiating and may reach out to the Federal Railroad Administration for arbitration.
The news update in the article is that 7 out of 19 agreements have now been signed. I'm not clear on "19 agreements in 15 states" part though. I come up with 18 states that have to provide subsidies to maintain corridor services.
If Gov. Pence of IN does decline to pay the subsidy, which sounds likely, then the Hoosier State is terminated and Amtrak has to decide what to do about the Beech Grove facility. The loss of the Hoosier State would provide a strong incentive to make the Cardinal a daily train in a couple of years once the Viewliner II are delivered, by working with VA DRPT to pick up the pace on Buckingham Branch improvements and to be ready to lean on CSX at the STB for clearance for daily service if need be.
Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.
 
Notices may soon start appearing at train stations around the United States warning of possible service disruptions as states struggle to finalize funding agreements with Amtrak. All state-supported Amtrak routes those shorter than 750 miles are up against an October 16 deadline to come up with state funds to support passenger rail operations under the 2008 PRIIA law. So far, only seven out of 19 agreements in 15 states with state-supported lines have hammered out final agreements.

Under Section 209 of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, states will pay more, [though] they will not pay 100 percent, said Amtrak spokesperson Steve Kulm. Amtrak will continue to pay roughly 13 percent for state-supported routes, he said, but the amount will vary by route.

Most states seem on track to reach an agreement with Amtrak in time, although some states, including Massachusetts and Connecticut, are still negotiating and may reach out to the Federal Railroad Administration for arbitration.
The news update in the article is that 7 out of 19 agreements have now been signed. I'm not clear on "19 agreements in 15 states" part though. I come up with 18 states that have to provide subsidies to maintain corridor services.
If Gov. Pence of IN does decline to pay the subsidy, which sounds likely, then the Hoosier State is terminated and Amtrak has to decide what to do about the Beech Grove facility. The loss of the Hoosier State would provide a strong incentive to make the Cardinal a daily train in a couple of years once the Viewliner II are delivered, by working with VA DRPT to pick up the pace on Buckingham Branch improvements and to be ready to lean on CSX at the STB for clearance for daily service if need be.
Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.
You mean restart the BL? How's that gonna happen?
 
Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.
I agree that there should be a Indianapolis to Chicago corridor service. If is not going to be HSR, a major Midwest city pair such as that should at least have trip times competitive with driving and multiple daily frequencies. But if the Governor of Indiana says no and the state legislature is not going to block him, then there is little Amtrak can do and the Hoosier State goes away. At least the Cardinal will still run and keep the route open for passenger train service. Far easier to start a corridor train later if the political situation changes and there is still an active passenger service to build on.
We will see what happens in the next week or two.
 
At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.
 
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