Hoosier State in Jeopardy

[RampWidget]

Yeah, because a long distance train that meanders from Chicago to New York the long way makes more sense than a train connecting two large metropolitan areas.

It does to people that live in Southwest Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Southern Ohio and Indiana!

Well-put, Ryan!

 

[Ryan]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.

Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".

 

[Eric S]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.

Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".

Not empty, and probably not useless to those passenger either.

(Of limited utility to other potential passengers, given its current operating characteristics, yes, but not useless.)

 

[okguy0821]

They have that Indiana Shores commuter line that is cheaper but it doesn't unload anywhere neat Union Station Chicago.

 

[jebr]

They have that Indiana Shores commuter line that is cheaper but it doesn't unload anywhere neat Union Station Chicago.

Not sure what you're referring to. No, it doesn't unload right next to it, but it's still in downtown Chicago. It's a walk or bus ride across downtown, but it's a lot closer than either airport, and may be more convenient for some non-connecting passengers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.

Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".

Not empty, and probably not useless to those passenger either.

(Of limited utility to other potential passengers, given its current operating characteristics, yes, but not useless.)

But not useful at all. Go ahead Amtrak, cut it. Just send cars to Beech Grove on the Cardinal.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

They have that Indiana Shores commuter line that is cheaper but it doesn't unload anywhere neat Union Station Chicago.

That line dosen't have anything to do with the HS. That line runs to South Bend, going east, nowhere near Indianapolis.

 

[Ryan]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.

Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".

Not empty, and probably not useless to those passenger either.
(Of limited utility to other potential passengers, given its current operating characteristics, yes, but not useless.)

But not useful at all. Go ahead Amtrak, cut it. Just send cars to Beech Grove on the Cardinal.

It's useful to the hundreds of people that ride it 4 times a week.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.

Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".

Not empty, and probably not useless to those passenger either.
(Of limited utility to other potential passengers, given its current operating characteristics, yes, but not useless.)

But not useful at all. Go ahead Amtrak, cut it. Just send cars to Beech Grove on the Cardinal.

It's useful to the hundreds of people that ride it 4 times a week.

So? Plenty of other transport is available. I'm hoping for them to cut it. It would be better to eliminate the worse players in Amtrak's system that are not important. The Cardinal and SL do bad, but they're important to their respective areas. The HS is not.

 

[jebr]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers. Might as well cut it and save some of the subsides for later.

Roughly 130 passengers per train is not "always empty".

Not empty, and probably not useless to those passenger either.
(Of limited utility to other potential passengers, given its current operating characteristics, yes, but not useless.)

But not useful at all. Go ahead Amtrak, cut it. Just send cars to Beech Grove on the Cardinal.

It's useful to the hundreds of people that ride it 4 times a week.

So? Plenty of other transport is available. I'm hoping for them to cut it. It would be better to eliminate the worse players in Amtrak's system that are not important. The Cardinal and SL do bad, but they're important to their respective areas. The HS is not.

More Megabus passengers on the Van Hools? h34r:

It's true, though, that there are other options, and the current Hoosier State is really limited in its market.

 

[CHamilton]

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012

Real GDP increased in 305 of the nation’s 381 metropolitan areas in 2012, led by growth in durable-goods manufacturing, trade, and financial activities, according to new statistics released today by the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis. Real GDP in metropolitan areas increased 2.5 percent in 2012 after increasing 1.7 percent in 2011....

Durable-goods manufacturing continued to spur growth in many of the nation’s metropolitan areas in 2012. Strong contributions from this industry fueled growth in many small metropolitan areas where it constitutes a large portion of the area’s economy. This is especially true in the Great Lakes region where durable-goods manufacturing contributed 8.5 percentage points to growth in Elkhart-Goshen, IN, 8.3 percentage points to growth in Columbus, IN and 7.2 percentage points in Kokomo, IN. Elkhart-Goshen, IN and Columbus, IN were two of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in 2012, with overall real GDP growth of 11.4 percent and 9.6 percent, respectively.

 

[RampWidget]

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012

Good information. That, coupled with what is reported to be a record grain harvest for the 2013 season, should make the debate over funding operation of the Hoosier State a moot point, IMO.

 

[PRR 60]

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012

Good information. That, coupled with what is reported to be a record grain harvest for the 2013 season, should make the debate over funding operation of the Hoosier State a moot point, IMO.

I don't think the question is whether Indiana can afford it. The question is whether a four-day-a-week, 39mph train with no food service is worth $3 million per year (with the likelihood that the price goes up each year). If some neighborhood kids wanted $500 to mow my lawn, I could afford it. It would not be worth it. Indiana may look at $3 million and say that they have better places to spend that money than on that train.

 

[MrFSS]

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012

Good information. That, coupled with what is reported to be a record grain harvest for the 2013 season, should make the debate over funding operation of the Hoosier State a moot point, IMO.

I don't think the question is whether Indiana can afford it. The question is whether a four-day-a-week, 39mph train with no food service is worth $3 million per year (with the likelihood that the price goes up each year). If some neighborhood kids wanted $500 to mow my lawn, I could afford it. It would not be worth it. Indiana may look at $3 million and say that they have better places to spend that money than on that train.

One of the major cities on the route says it will help with the funding.

LINK

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012

Good information. That, coupled with what is reported to be a record grain harvest for the 2013 season, should make the debate over funding operation of the Hoosier State a moot point, IMO.

I don't think the question is whether Indiana can afford it. The question is whether a four-day-a-week, 39mph train with no food service is worth $3 million per year (with the likelihood that the price goes up each year). If some neighborhood kids wanted $500 to mow my lawn, I could afford it. It would not be worth it. Indiana may look at $3 million and say that they have better places to spend that money than on that train.

Great point. I agree. I can actually afford an Amtrak trip right now, but I won't beucase I'm trying to save money for a big overseas trip. The Hs is dealing with about the same situation.

 

[RampWidget]

Looks like Indiana ought to be able to afford continuing the Hoosier State.

ECONOMIC GROWTH WIDESPREAD ACROSS METROPOLITAN AREAS IN 2012

Good information. That, coupled with what is reported to be a record grain harvest for the 2013 season, should make the debate over funding operation of the Hoosier State a moot point, IMO.

I don't think the question is whether Indiana can afford it. The question is whether a four-day-a-week, 39mph train with no food service is worth $3 million per year (with the likelihood that the price goes up each year). If some neighborhood kids wanted $500 to mow my lawn, I could afford it. It would not be worth it. Indiana may look at $3 million and say that they have better places to spend that money than on that train.

I see your point, but I look at it somewhat differently than the Hoosier State being simply a four-day-a-week service. I look at it as a fill-in for non-Cardinal days so that the Indy to Chgo route actually has seven-day-a-week-service. To me, that is a big difference. Tri-weekly service is not much better than no service, so having the Hoosier State to fill the "tag days" on which the Cardinal does not operate is of importance to passengers, IMO. Now all is needed is to find more passengers to fill it. Cafe service, even if it's just a food cart, would help.

Edit: additional info

 

[CHamilton]

INDOT begins contract negotiations with Amtrak

Editor's Note: At 1:44 p.m. Tuesday, NUVO received the following news release from the Indiana Department of Transportation:



The Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) announced it has begun contract negotiations with Amtrak over continuation of the Hoosier State passenger rail service, which operates four days per week between Indianapolis and Chicago.

In 2008, Congress voted to end federal support for Amtrak routes of less than 750 miles. Seven of the 19 states impacted have signed operating agreements as of Sept. 13. Amtrak has said that it would not terminate service with states holding good-faith contract negotiations by Oct. 1.

Governor Pence authorized INDOT to begin negotiations with local partners last week. INDOT has been having ongoing discussions with the communities that have stops along the Hoosier State passenger rail service. Mayors and other public officials expressed an interest in keeping the Hoosier State service operating and are making local funds available as part of the financing package. ...

 

[afigg]

So INDOT is starting negotiations with 1 week left before the first deadline? While the other states have been in meetings and discussions on the cost allocation rules for years and negotiations with Amtrak for how many months? Yes, better late than never, but seriously. We will find out if these negotiations are for real or for political show on the part of INDOT and Gov. Pence.

 

[PaulM]

At this point, I'm actually hoping it'll get cancelled. It's slow, poorly timed, and always empty. Basically useless to passengers.

Is this an emotional statement? It's only anecdotal, but while I was waiting for the IZ yesterday (weekday in

mid-September), I saw a long line waiting for 850.

 

[Nathanael]

The problem with the Hoosier State is that it has been allowed to get so slow. Which is due to total disinterest in passenger rail from the Indiana state government for most of 40 years.

If the trackage were upgraded (perhaps bought by Indiana and then upgraded), as in Michigan, Illinois, Maine, and so many other states, the Hoosier State could be a highly successful and popular train. But it hasn't been. It shouldn't be a question of "Should Indiana spend $3 million a year for the current Hoosier State", it should be a question of "Is Indiana willing to support passenger rail", and if it is, the state should put in serious money and upgrade the route -- which would, of course, reduce the yearly operational subsidy needed, as well as providing a more useful passenger service.

However, it seems absoutely clear that the Indiana DOT wants to cut bait, and kill the train -- and probably lose Beech Grove in 5-10 years as a result, since Beech Grove will become completely economically untenable if anything happens to the Cardinal (which it might) -- and there's lots of good locations for a new heavy maintenance shop in Chicagoland.

It may be possible for the *cities* along the Hoosier State route to save it, but that's a long shot. I hope they manage to talk Indiana DOT out of its destructive attitude -- which is bad for the entire state -- but I'm not optimistic.

My Indiana friends finally observed that they'd been looking for an excuse to visit Chicago, so instead they will be driving to join us in IL. So I was all set to spend $$ in Bloomie and Indy and instead some IN residents are going to be dropping (even more as, let's be honest, museum hopping ain't cheap) $$ in Chicago. WAY TO GO, INDIANA.

This is the future of Indiana until the politics change. :-(

Beech Grove is no longer "as central as possible to minimize overall travel time" -- it's now located so as to maximize overall travel time.

Amtrak's shops are already having a problem with "cars not arriving as scheduled" (due to intensive use of the fleet). Accessing Beech Grove only three days a week on one of the most unreliable Amtrak trains (to Indianapolis, followed by a switcher job to Beech Grove!) can only make this problem worse! It would then generally be faster to get to shops located in *Denver*, because the Zephyr runs daily!

I hadn't thought of Denver; it would work. There isn't much of any free space for a railyard in Denver, though. There's actually still a certain amount of ex-railyard space in Chicago despite recent expansions. There's far more ex-railyard space in northwestern Indiana.
And of course there's insane amounts of cheap rail-connected space in Detroit; Detroit might actually be the most sensible location, with lots of cheap, rail-connected land and multiple trains per day -- on a line which is largely Amtrak-controlled. If South of the Lake ever gets built, it would be a 100% Amtrak route to Detroit.

 

[Ryan]

Not to mention an area with a bunch of skilled auto workers that could really use some job opportunities.

 

[CHamilton]

Negotiations begin to save Amtrak’s Hoosier State service

Indiana officials say negotiations have begun on a contract that could keep the Hoosier State train service alive.
Amtrak officials have a slightly different take on things.

The Indiana Department of Transportation issued a news release Tuesday announcing that Gov. Mike Pence authorized the department to begin the talks last week.

In response, Amtrak’s Chicago office issued a statement noting that a proposed agreement had been sent to the state weeks ago....

INDOT officials had been holding discussions and public forums in the communities served along the Hoosier State route, which include Crawfordsville, Lafayette and Rensselaer.

Mayors and other public officials in some of those communities expressed interest in keeping the service operating and offered local funds as part of any state financing package.

If successful, the talks would preserve the four-day-a-week Amtrak train and therefore maintain daily train service between Indianapolis and Chicago.

If the talks fail, that route would be left only with three-day-a-week service via the Cardinal, an Amtrak route which runs from Chicago to New York via Washington, D.C.

In 2008, Congress voted to end federal support of Amtrak routes of less than 750 miles. The deadline for states to fund such routes is Oct. 1.

Just having the talks will keep the service alive for awhile, regardless of the outcome. Amtrak has said it would not end service in states negotiating in good faith by that deadline, according to INDOT.

Even so, Amtrak’s view of the immediate future is not quite as rosy.

“If we do not have an agreement by Monday, September 30th, Amtrak will begin steps to notify its employees and the public of the impending suspension of service” on the Hoosier State,” Amtrak’s statement read.

So far, seven of the 19 states affected by the new funding limits have signed operating agreements....

The state transportation department also asked for a cost-benefit analysis of the existing service as well as four options Amtrak outlined to improve the frequency of service and the departure times (the train currently leaves Indianapolis about 6 a.m. and arrives in Indianapolis about 11:50 p.m.

 

[afigg]

The interesting info in the Post-Tribune article is

The state transportation department also asked for a cost-benefit analysis of the existing service as well as four options Amtrak outlined to improve the frequency of service and the departure times (the train currently leaves Indianapolis about 6 a.m. and arrives in Indianapolis about 11:50 p.m.

Results of that analysis will be presented Thursday at a joint study committee.

Amtrak’s statement noted that the railroad has provided INDOT information “regarding ways to improve the current Hoosier State service and the need for infrastructure improvements to realize those benefits,” and added: “We look forward to reviewing the draft report by INDOT’s consultant after it is released.”

Would be interesting to read the consultant report if it is made public. So, Amtrak is offering 4 options, which appears to include daily service and possible schedule changes. Much of the hostility to keeping the Hoosier State - on the rr forums and public comments in newspaper articles (ok, which are often hostile to anything) - has been the cost of keeping a slow 4 day a week train.

The odds are likely against it, but if the outcome of the PRIIA mandated state support is Indiana and the cities agree to not only provide funds for a daily HS but also some state transportation funds for track improvements to reduce trip times, that should be regarded as a very positive result. A daily HS on a different schedule would leave also the door open for a daily Cardinal. If Indiana pays for a 4 day a week HS, that could become an impediment to a daily Cardinal if the state were to withdraw the HS subsidy because then it is a LD train.

But we will see what the response is from the joint study committee meeting.

 

[Anderson]

I'm wondering what the four options were. Assuming one is the current service and a second is a daily train, what would 3 and 4 be?

 

[Nathanael]

I would expect that the four improvement options feature varying capital improvements allowing for different schedules.