Empire Builder and the Souris River

[anir dendroica]

Today's update from BNSF:

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates-service-consumer/0C291843FEDC995A862578B900664B85?Open

To: All BNSF Intermodal Customers06/24/2011

Update Report: Minot, North Dakota Area Flooding

As stated in the Service Advisory dated Wednesday, June 22, 2011, BNSF reported plans to close the Minot, North Dakota area to rail traffic due to main track flooding.

- Main track one was removed from service 12:00 p.m. CT on June 22, 2011.

- Main track two was removed from service 10:00 a.m. CT on June 24, 2011.

BNSF began proactively moving intermodal trains departing from the Pacific Northwest and from Chicago over established reroutes on the evening of June 22 in order to minimize the impact to our customer’s freight. Due to the Minot mainline outage customers may experience additional transit time of 36 to 48 hours on shipments moving via the reroutes.

Based on hydrological forecasts the Minot outage is currently estimated to last 10 to 14 day. BNSF will continue to update customers on actual conditions

Souris River hydrograph at Minot:

http://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=bis&gage=mion8&view=1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1%22

The EB actually crosses the Souris River twice: at Minot and at Towner on the Devils Lake sub. I suspect the crossing at Towner will be damaged as well. The KO sub crosses the Souris at Verendrye on what looks to be a pretty high bridge.

For those worried about a freight backlog, that shouldn't be a problem in this case. BNSF is currently sending all freight via alternate routes; there should be no trains parked waiting for the line to reopen.

Mark

 

[Bob Dylan]

So with the EB being Shutdown for a Month (or More! ) Why Not Have a Plan to Run the Builder on the Freight Lines that BNSF is Using like they Do whenever the High Line is Shutdown? Of Course it would be Slower, Require Pilots/Freight Engines Yadda! Yadda! but this Beats NO Trains for a Month Not to mention the Millions of Dollars Amtrak will have to refund or Lose in Revenue on this Route! Stub Trains To/From CHI-Minnesota and SEA/PDX (a Bus in this Case! )to Montana is Not Going to Fill these Trains, Only Lose even More Money! This Doesnt Even Include the People Out in the Boondocks that Depend on the EB for Transportation to Civilization!! Henry had a question on this Subject Last Month Asking What About Thinking Outside the Box Amtrak? What About It?????? :help: :help: :help:

 

[jb64]

Mark's prior post indicates that BNSF is predicting an outage of 10-14 days WITHOUT a big backlog of freight. If that is the case, EB should be running again before a month's time. We can hope, anyway.

 

[Trogdor]

So with the EB being Shutdown for a Month (or More! ) Why Not Have a Plan to Run the Builder on the Freight Lines that BNSF is Using like they Do whenever the High Line is Shutdown? Of Course it would be Slower, Require Pilots/Freight Engines Yadda! Yadda! but this Beats NO Trains for a Month Not to mention the Millions of Dollars Amtrak will have to refund or Lose in Revenue on this Route! Stub Trains To/From CHI-Minnesota and SEA/PDX (a Bus in this Case! )to Montana is Not Going to Fill these Trains, Only Lose even More Money! This Doesnt Even Include the People Out in the Boondocks that Depend on the EB for Transportation to Civilization!! Henry had a question on this Subject Last Month Asking What About Thinking Outside the Box Amtrak? What About It?????? :help: :help: :help:

This question is asked every time, and the answer doesn't change:

The costs associated with this kind of a reroute would far exceed the potential revenue. These slower reroutes would require more equipment (due to the much slower speeds resulting in longer travel times), and trains would be delayed significantly. Further, you'd be missing so much of the route that you'd still have to cancel/refund many people's reservations (including those that live "out in the boondocks" as you say, as that's the area that would be largely skipped by such a reroute, and reroutes generally do not have any passenger facilities to serve people along the route).

That doesn't even count the fact that these freight lines are probably very congested now, with more traffic than they normally handle, and you'd suffer even greater delay.

Now, I don't know the details of this, but someone told me that a number of years ago, they tried doing this very thing, by rerouting some train over some obscure detour because of weather, and due to some problem or another (maybe the weather closure eventually got to the reroute trackage), they had a trainload of passengers stuck in the middle of nowhere with no staff within hundreds of miles to assist with getting people off the train and onto buses. Since then, Amtrak has tended to stick to a handful of standard detours that are in relatively good shape and won't cause too significant of a delay.

Just looking at a rail atlas and connecting the dots isn't a way to plan a detour with a passenger train.

 

[PRR 60]

I was watching a press conference from Minot yesterday, and the Mayor had some less than kind words for BNSF. Consistent with the BNSF release, the railroad kept one track open through Minot until yesterday (6/24). Answering a question about the continued rail activity and who had the authority to stop the trains, local officials said they had asked BNSF to curtail service so the tracks could be accessed for dike building and other emergency work. These same officials indicate the railroad did not respond to the request and the active track hindered their efforts.

I don't discount the possibility that the local officials in Minot are frustrated by a horrific situation that is out of their control, and in a small way, took it out on a convenient target. However, it shocked me that BNSF actually ran trains through Minot yesterday with flood water literally lapping at the rail (and a live feed showed one rolling through). I'd hate to think that moving one more train was more important to BNSF than helping people who are fighting to save their homes and businesses.

 

[NJCoastExp]

It has to be bad out there if my local news feed (Cablevision in NJ) has flooding in ND as second leading story in the lineup.

 

[QueenCC]

I spoke with Amtrak again this morning, and they still have trains scheduled for the week of July 9th... I can't believe they haven't cxl those yet..... Even if the water stops in the next day or so, it's going to take a while for it to all go back down, and once it does, one would think Amtrak would like to make sure the tracks are safe.... I hate being in limbo, because I can't change my plans for my return home from Washington in till I know what Amtrak is going to do....

I feel deeply for everyone living in the flooded area, and I wish them all the best in their recovery once this is over.....

 

[Bob Dylan]

I was watching a press conference from Minot yesterday, and the Mayor had some less than kind words for BNSF. Consistent with the BNSF release, the railroad kept one track open through Minot until yesterday (6/24). Answering a question about the continued rail activity and who had the authority to stop the trains, local officials said they had asked BNSF to curtail service so the tracks could be accessed for dike building and other emergency work. These same officials indicate the railroad did not respond to the request and the active track hindered their efforts.

I don't discount the possibility that the local officials in Minot are frustrated by a horrific situation that is out of their control, and in a small way, took it out on a convenient target. However, it shocked me that BNSF actually ran trains through Minot yesterday with flood water literally lapping at the rail (and a live feed showed one rolling through). I'd hate to think that moving one more train was more important to BNSF than helping people who are fighting to save their homes and businesses.

There's a Word for this: Greed!! :angry2:

 

[sttsxm]

thanks for posting this...i have family scheduled to take this eastbound later in July....I advised them to make a back up plan now...just in case.....easier than trying to scramble at the last minute.....

Hope everyone in the affected area is doing well..and again, thanks for all the links and photos....wow!

 

[TraneMan]

Looks like good news in a way, the river looks like it may be dropping down slowly after Sunday.

 

[mwmnp]

Amtrak station from what I suspect was Friday evening. The platform and tracks are behind the building.



Aerial photo of station



AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast

From Friday



Copyright: cu.minotdailynews.com

The BNSF mouse river bridges on Friday afternoon.



Copyright: cu.minotdailynews.com

Airboating above the tracks in front of the BNSF crew office.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgK9X5rOkQw

 

[Gingee]

Oh that is awful. We came through there last month. I know as we came on the Empire Builder, there was water close to the track then and that was around May 24-25th. We have sure had a lousy summer so far. Rain every day and we don't even live up north. Feel for them.

 

[albertaborn]

First time train travellers - we're booked from Shelby MT to Seattle Aug. 12, return on Aug. 20. I've been following the flooding and am assuming our bookings are o.k. and shouldn't be affected - am I right? Haven't called Amtrak - yet - figure they're busy enough right now. In the opinion of those who have more knowledge/experience, will Amtrak continue with the service west from Havre to Seattle as long as there are issues in ND? Really, really looking forward to experiencing the train!

BTW, love this forum - lots of good info and knowledgeable advice! Thanks to all of you!

 

[NY Penn]

NY Times is reporting that the river has stopped rising.

NY Times Article

 

[EB_OBS]

First time train travellers - we're booked from Shelby MT to Seattle Aug. 12, return on Aug. 20. I've been following the flooding and am assuming our bookings are o.k. and shouldn't be affected - am I right? Haven't called Amtrak - yet - figure they're busy enough right now. In the opinion of those who have more knowledge/experience, will Amtrak continue with the service west from Havre to Seattle as long as there are issues in ND? Really, really looking forward to experiencing the train!

BTW, love this forum - lots of good info and knowledgeable advice! Thanks to all of you!

Without making any promises of course, I'm gonna say you should be fine. Amtrak is currently operating a train between Havre, Mt and Seattle and passengers going to Portland can transfer to a bus in Spokane. By most accounts it's probable that the train will be making the entire route again by August 12th. Let's hope so.

 

[mwmnp]

BNSF washouts.

No mention of where this is, but I might guess the Devils Lake sub near Towner, ND.

Mark

You have to be a paying member of Trainorders to see the image you linked to, but taking a peek at a thumbnail and having watched the news story referenced, I am all but certain that that particular footage is from the washouts BNSF experienced last month in southeastern Montana. I know the CP tracks around Minot have at least one big washout, but I have not heard of any washouts along the BNSF tracks and really can't think of any flooded areas susceptible to one except for the Towner area. However, the tracks are still fine out in that area, as BNSF operated a few trains between Minot and Rugby this weekend.

 

[MrFSS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFut_o6i9K8&feature=player_embedded#at=37

 

[Ispolkom]

For those not familiar with Minot, here's the rail bits:

At 2:58 you can see the Amtrak Depot surrounded by white sandbags (and water). Both BNSF and CP tracks are underwater in that area. The Depot just finished a long and extensive restoration.

4:25 to 4:40 those are CP tracks west of downtown

5:05 That's the CP line again heading west

6:19 Again the CP line

 

[mwmnp]

However, the tracks are still fine out in that area, as BNSF operated a few trains between Minot and Rugby this weekend.

Not fine anymore. BNSF closed the Devils Lake Sub down near Towner today because of the extraordinarily high water now flowing that way from the Minot area. Due to the terrain in the Towner area, the Mouse River there tends to spread out and flow relatively slowly, ensuring the water will stay very high for several weeks or, perhaps, months.

BNSF suffered a bridge failure and a washout in the Towner area in April 2009 when the water reached 56.30 ft. The current level is 58 ft and is expected to rise to 61.5 feet on Wednesday. Prior to this year, the highest level ever recorded at Towner was 56.70 ft in 1976.

 

[anir dendroica]

However, the tracks are still fine out in that area, as BNSF operated a few trains between Minot and Rugby this weekend.

Not fine anymore. BNSF closed the Devils Lake Sub down near Towner today because of the extraordinarily high water now flowing that way from the Minot area. Due to the terrain in the Towner area, the Mouse River there tends to spread out and flow relatively slowly, ensuring the water will stay very high for several weeks or, perhaps, months.

BNSF suffered a bridge failure and a washout in the Towner area in April 2009 when the water reached 56.30 ft. The current level is 58 ft and is expected to rise to 61.5 feet on Wednesday. Prior to this year, the highest level ever recorded at Towner was 56.70 ft in 1976.

Is the crossing on the KO at Verendrye high enough to stay out of trouble?

 

[mwmnp]

Is the crossing on the KO at Verendrye high enough to stay out of trouble?

I think so. The tracks in that area were engineered to have as small of a gradient as possible through the river valley, so there was a lot of fill put in on either side of the river to elevate the roadbed as well as a pretty high bridge constructed over the river. As I recall from visiting the historical monument to explorer David Thompson to the northeast, the bridge is perhaps 30 feet or more higher than the normal level of the river.

 

[anir dendroica]

33 pictures from BNSF today:

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/weather/2011-06-27.pdf

My heart goes out to all those folks with homes on page 6 of that PDF.

Amazingly, the bridges in Minot look to be still in place beneath the flood, though whether they will be structurally sound is another matter. The Verendrye crossing is plenty high, though the water is above the concrete portion of the piers and BNSF has imposed a 10 mph slow order across it. The Devils Lake sub is within a foot or two of being overtopped, and with the water there having risen 2.5 feet since yesterday it may be under now.

Here's a map of the area for those unfamiliar. BNSF tracks are in red. The yellow and green highlighted areas are flooding.

Given that Towner is far downstream of Minot, I expect that the KO sub will reopen first. Then Amtrak will have to decide whether to run the EB over the KO sub (bypassing Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks) or to wait for the Devils Lake line to reopen.

Mark

 

[David]

Thanks Mark!

We are taking the EB west bound on July 20th. Trying to figuure out when we need to make a decision about taking the Califironia Zephyr. We are limited and can only leave on July 20th. We have not taken a train before and trying to take a sightseeing train ride.

Has anyone been on the Cal Zephyr and Empire Builder? Would either be a great trip? We have a roomette.

Thanks - (this is my first post and just found these pages)

David

 

[Altygrae]

From what I'm reading on this and other forums, seeing on TV, and hearing on webcasts you should be fine on the Empire Builder. Both are great routes for sight seeing.

 

[anir dendroica]

Thanks Mark!

We are taking the EB west bound on July 20th. Trying to figuure out when we need to make a decision about taking the Califironia Zephyr. We are limited and can only leave on July 20th. We have not taken a train before and trying to take a sightseeing train ride.

Has anyone been on the Cal Zephyr and Empire Builder? Would either be a great trip? We have a roomette.

Thanks - (this is my first post and just found these pages)

David

I don't think anyone knows if the EB will be running by the 20th - it all depends on the amount of damage to track and bridges once the waters recede. The Cal Zephyr is also less than certain - the Missouri River is forecast to remain near record flood stage through July. BNSF has so far managed to protect their tracks with levees and track raises, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that line closes.

Overall, on July 20, I'd say you have a 95% chance of success (i.e. no cancellations) with the Southwest Chief, 80% with the Cal Zephyr, and about 50% with the Empire Builder. Those are just my guesses based on past performance of the trains and examining the flood data. Others may have different estimates.

I just rescheduled my June 25 EB trip for July 29, with an option to reschedule for August 27 in the event that the trains aren't running yet.

Mark