EB mess

[Devil's Advocate]

So you're saying every passenger traveling on EB should come to AU months before their trip and see this discussion thread to realise EB runs notoriously delayed regularly? Even after the mess going on for so long, the Amtrak site says nothing at all about EB having severe punctuality issues. Its easy to say as a railfan that oh there are third party sites that you can check to see historic performance, but as a casual passenger, you can't expect everyone to be doing that. When I book a flight, I don't go digging into databases to see how many times in the last three months the flight gets delayed. Some airlines are gracious enough to mention this in the booking page itself, for example Southwest has a note like "74% on-time" next to every flight you are given to choose. Edit: Amtrak's Service Alerts page also has zero mention of anything being wrong with Empire Builder. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?

This is what Amtrak provides...

On-Time Performance

February 2014: 11.6%

Last 12 Months: 22.0%

Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview

So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.

 

[montana mike]

That 11% has to be route wide. I don't believe it has arrived on time in CHI in many months!!

 

[D.P. Roberts]

At some point the onus is on the traveler to reevaluate their plans after months of routine delays and perpetual dysfunction. At this point if someone chooses to take an Empire Builder connection to a wedding then they're basically saying they really don't care if they arrive on time or not. Trick me once, shame on you. Trick thousands of people hundreds of times, shame on them.

So you're saying every passenger traveling on EB should come to AU months before their trip and see this discussion thread to realise EB runs notoriously delayed regularly? Even after the mess going on for so long, the Amtrak site says nothing at all about EB having severe punctuality issues. Its easy to say as a railfan that oh there are third party sites that you can check to see historic performance, but as a casual passenger, you can't expect everyone to be doing that. When I book a flight, I don't go digging into databases to see how many times in the last three months the flight gets delayed. Some airlines are gracious enough to mention this in the booking page itself, for example Southwest has a note like "74% on-time" next to every flight you are given to choose.

Edit: Amtrak's Service Alerts page also has zero mention of anything being wrong with Empire Builder. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?

I agree with this. "Fool me once" applies to first-time Amtrak riders, whether or not they come to AU first. I've seen "guest" postings here from first-time riders who paid for coach & thought they would get a bed because it was overnight, and people who paid for roomettes thinking they'd get a bedroom, & many other crazy expectations. All that stuff is on the Amtrak website, & anywhere else you care to look.

However, if I have a ticket that says I'll arrive in Chicago at 3:55 pm, I'd expect that the train will arrive somewhere around 3:55 pm. Sure, planes are sometimes late, and I'd expect that the average first-time Amtrakian is probably going to assume that trains are pretty much like airplanes - sometimes late, but usually on time. The first time passenger isn't going to do some digging to find out whether the train is usually eight and a half hours late (like now) any more than he or she is going to check and see whether the food in the dining car will give you botulism.

 

[Texan Eagle]

This is what Amtrak provides...
On-Time Performance

February 2014: 11.6%

Last 12 Months: 22.0%

Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview

So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.

Sure it says it arrives on-time 11% of the time, but it doesn't say anything about HOW damned late the train has been. The train could be reaching Chicago 20-30 minutes late everyday due to minor congestion/platform issues which is not so bad from a practical perspective and still have a miserable 11% on-time numbers.

What would be useful is Amtrak putting a small box breaking down HOW much delayed EB is getting, something that Southwest Airlines does for all of its flights-

Flight # 2098

% Ontime Arrival 84.7%

% > 30 Minutes Late 7.6%

% Cancellations 0%

Average Delay Time 8.9 Minutes

If Amtrak gives such clear information at the time of booking, and then passengers complain about delays, I would probably agree with your fool me once theory, but without it, there is no way poor passenger is supposed to know what mess they are getting into.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Then there's the problem that everyone on an airplane is getting on and getting off at the same destinations. Most people on a train aren't riding endpoint to endpoint, so the number for every intermediary combination will entirely different.

And that's just arrivals, let alone all the on time (or not on time) departures. I can easily imagine a scenario where someone actually finds amtrakdelays.com to research a CHI-MSP trip, and sees that train 7 has been making it to MSP only an hour late. No biggie, he thinks, and he goes on his way - without bothering to find out that train 8 is averaging almost seven hours late LEAVING MSP for his return trip...

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This is what Amtrak provides...

On-Time Performance

February 2014: 11.6%

Last 12 Months: 22.0%

Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview

So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.

Sure it says it arrives on-time 11% of the time, but it doesn't say anything about HOW damned late the train has been. The train could be reaching Chicago 20-30 minutes late everyday due to minor congestion/platform issues which is not so bad from a practical perspective and still have a miserable 11% on-time numbers.

What would be useful is Amtrak putting a small box breaking down HOW much delayed EB is getting, something that Southwest Airlines does for all of its flights-

Flight # 2098

% Ontime Arrival 84.7%

% > 30 Minutes Late 7.6%

% Cancellations 0%

Average Delay Time 8.9 Minutes

If Amtrak gives such clear information at the time of booking, and then passengers complain about delays, I would probably agree with your fool me once theory, but without it, there is no way poor passenger is supposed to know what mess they are getting into.

Yes, that would be great to have and I hope Amtrak considers adding it. Nonetheless upon seeing that a plane or bus or boat had arrived on-time 11% over the last month and 22% over the last year I'd have the inclination to do some more research, because that's kind of important to me when I travel. If you travel blindly because you're lazy or you're a Luddite or you just don't know any better then I'm not sure that's entirely Amtrak's fault. The information is there to be found if you bother looking for it and in the era of Google there's not much of an excuse for lack of due diligence. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[jebr]

Nonetheless upon seeing that a plane or bus or boat had arrived on-time 11% over the last month and 22% over the last year I'd have the inclination to do some more research, because that's kind of important to me when I travel. If you travel blindly because you're lazy or you're a Luddite or you just don't know any better then I'm not sure that's entirely Amtrak's fault. The information is there to be found if you bother looking for it and in the era of Google there's not much of an excuse for lack of due diligence. That's my opinion anyway.

Yes, if being exactly on-time is important to someone, they should look at the on-time performance. But Amtrak doesn't make it particularly obvious to find on-time performance, and if I'm thinking that an hour or two late isn't a big deal, I may not think to look closely at the on-time performance. It's not unreasonable for someone to expect a mode of transportation to generally keep schedule and most days arrive at their destination (whether midway along the route or at the train's endpoint) relatively on-time, give or take an hour or two.

Thankfully, Amtrak has wised up and put an alert when purchasing the tickets. Here's what I get when I try and purchase a ticket:

When clicking on the alert, I get this text:

Empire Builder Trains 7/27/807 and 8/28/808: Service Restored at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby
Effective March 1, 2014Amtrak is in continuing talks with BNSF Railway Company, which owns, maintains and dispatches the tracks used by the Empire Builder between St. Paul, MN, and the West Coast. In addition to the daily Amtrak trains, BNSF has very high volumes of freight train traffic that have often delayed Amtrak service.

BNSF will allow the Empire Builder to travel on its regular route in both directions in North Dakota, restoring normal service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby. This eliminates the practice of detouring the westbound Empire Builder and requiring some Amtrak passengers to transfer to and from chartered buses.

BNSF has additional capacity improvements to be carried out this construction season. This work is expected to reduce delays to Amtrak trains and to freight trains. However, many of these projects will not be complete until late 2014.

Amtrak delays due to freight train interference continue to be likely on the Empire Builder's route between Chicago and Seattle or Portland.

As with all transportation modes, passengers should check for delays before heading to their boarding locations. The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.

Like us on facebook.com/Amtrak and follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak. Check out our blog at blog.amtrak.com.

PSN 0214-43

Unfortunately, the key point to passengers is buried in a single paragraph halfway through the text, and the title makes no mention of the delays. It's better than no alert, but ideally Amtrak would put the delay issue more front-and-center (while still hoisting the blame for the delays on BNSF.) When a train averages delays of many hours the vast, vast majority of the time, the customer should be made easily aware of the issue, and so far I'm not sure Amtrak is living up to that expectation.

 

[montana mike]

Nonetheless upon seeing that a plane or bus or boat had arrived on-time 11% over the last month and 22% over the last year I'd have the inclination to do some more research, because that's kind of important to me when I travel. If you travel blindly because you're lazy or you're a Luddite or you just don't know any better then I'm not sure that's entirely Amtrak's fault. The information is there to be found if you bother looking for it and in the era of Google there's not much of an excuse for lack of due diligence. That's my opinion anyway.

Yes, if being exactly on-time is important to someone, they should look at the on-time performance. But Amtrak doesn't make it particularly obvious to find on-time performance, and if I'm thinking that an hour or two late isn't a big deal, I may not think to look closely at the on-time performance. It's not unreasonable for someone to expect a mode of transportation to generally keep schedule and most days arrive at their destination (whether midway along the route or at the train's endpoint) relatively on-time, give or take an hour or two.

Thankfully, Amtrak has wised up and put an alert when purchasing the tickets. Here's what I get when I try and purchase a ticket:

When clicking on the alert, I get this text:

Empire Builder Trains 7/27/807 and 8/28/808: Service Restored at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby
Effective March 1, 2014Amtrak is in continuing talks with BNSF Railway Company, which owns, maintains and dispatches the tracks used by the Empire Builder between St. Paul, MN, and the West Coast. In addition to the daily Amtrak trains, BNSF has very high volumes of freight train traffic that have often delayed Amtrak service.

BNSF will allow the Empire Builder to travel on its regular route in both directions in North Dakota, restoring normal service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby. This eliminates the practice of detouring the westbound Empire Builder and requiring some Amtrak passengers to transfer to and from chartered buses.

BNSF has additional capacity improvements to be carried out this construction season. This work is expected to reduce delays to Amtrak trains and to freight trains. However, many of these projects will not be complete until late 2014.

Amtrak delays due to freight train interference continue to be likely on the Empire Builder's route between Chicago and Seattle or Portland.

As with all transportation modes, passengers should check for delays before heading to their boarding locations. The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.

Like us on facebook.com/Amtrak and follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak. Check out our blog at blog.amtrak.com.

PSN 0214-43

Unfortunately, the key point to passengers is buried in a single paragraph halfway through the text, and the title makes no mention of the delays. It's better than no alert, but ideally Amtrak would put the delay issue more front-and-center (while still hoisting the blame for the delays on BNSF.) When a train averages delays of many hours the vast, vast majority of the time, the customer should be made easily aware of the issue, and so far I'm not sure Amtrak is living up to that expectation.

I think Amtrak is worried that if they say travelers can expect to see 4-6 hour delays in arrival times at SEA/PDX or CHI and many intermediate stops that would cause some potential customers to not buy a ticket on the Empire Builders. I would have also made it clear to all readers that the delays were large enough that NO same day connections in CHI are guaranteed. You are right though it is a start. Interestingly, if you look out into the summer months (July and beyond) no such alert exists. if anything, the summer is likely to see more slowdowns with the massive amount of work to be done on the tracks and the arrival of the 5000 additional tanker cars!

 

[montana mike]

Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.

 

[greatcats]

They would really be in a ( discontinued ) pickle if they had abandoned the line through Devils Lake. Instead, Amtrak is abandoning pickles but hopefully not the train. ( Did this make any sense? )

 

[EB_OBS]

Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.

This exactly details the info I've been privy to both from Amtrak and the BNSF. Basically, the increased traffic and construction will replace the winter weather and the delays will remain constant.

 

[OBS]

They would really be in a ( discontinued ) pickle if they had abandoned the line through Devils Lake. Instead, Amtrak is abandoning pickles but hopefully not the train. ( Did this make any sense? )

That's funny...

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.

This exactly details the info I've been privy to both from Amtrak and the BNSF. Basically, the increased traffic and construction will replace the winter weather and the delays will remain constant.

*Neither of you are correct, as the Amtrak site clearly indicates that these warnings are only in effect through May 31st. Beginning June 1, you can book a trip on the EB without seeing the warning. So, Amtrak clearly knows that the lateness & construction problems will be over by then, and people traveling on the EB will have trouble-free trips this summer! Yay!!!!**

*Sarcasm on

**Sarcasm off

 

[greatcats]

Thanks. I thought it was a Lamy- er- lame attempt at sophisticated humor.

 

[tim49424]

*Sarcasm on

**Sarcasm off

If only the small print wasn't necessary.

 

[montana mike]

LOL

Looking at today anything but laughs:

#7 has lost over 7 hours going thru the "gauntlet"

#8 is now around 6 hours behind.

Brutal.....

 

[andersone]

Interesting conversation with the BNSF folks this AM. I had asked them why, with the restoration of the normal route thru Devils Lake and Grand Forks the Amtrak trains were still losing an average of 4 hours in this area almost every day in BOTH directions. I had thought that with most energy trains taking the Surrey Cutoff this would have helped the Builders. One of my friends pointed out that the traffic continues to increase and most of BNSF's other freight is now going over the same route that the Empire Builder's take, while the Surrey Cutoff is being used primarily for the tanker trains. He said when they bring the additional tanker cars into their system beginning in late May this congestion will likely increase and delays may get worse before they get better. He also said he felt things should improve at least a little by very late in 2014, when a modest portion of some additional sidings and double trackage should be in place, but the entire project is not scheduled to be completed until some time in 2016.

This exactly details the info I've been privy to both from Amtrak and the BNSF. Basically, the increased traffic and construction will replace the winter weather and the delays will remain constant.

*Neither of you are correct, as the Amtrak site clearly indicates that these warnings are only in effect through May 31st. Beginning June 1, you can book a trip on the EB without seeing the warning. So, Amtrak clearly knows that the lateness & construction problems will be over by then, and people traveling on the EB will have trouble-free trips this summer! Yay!!!!**

*Sarcasm on

**Sarcasm off

i am not sure i would be eating that Wilbur,,, or for the jNW fans,,, be careful sipping the purple Kool Aid,,,,

 

[Paperwing]

For us, I know our trip is in August. I've been using the text msg program I read about on a thread here that you simply text your train# and city and you get back an instant report of that days arrival/departure. I've been checking that way for a random few days here so I can very roughly see how that line does from day to day. Of course that will in no way determine the times for the day of travel, but still interesting to check here and there.

 

[montana mike]

#7 this AM in WA is now over 8 hours late. Things are getting worse, not better. #8 in MN is running over 4 hours behind, about average for the mess in ND.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

This is what Amtrak provides...

On-Time Performance

February 2014: 11.6%

Last 12 Months: 22.0%

Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview

So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.

I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%? Really? So 1 out of every 5 days that the EB was late in February 2014 was somehow a passenger's fault? I find that really hard to believe.

And if you drill down even further, train # 27 was on time 0.0% of the time in February, and 77% of the time, it was a "Passenger" issue!

 

[JoeBas]

This is what Amtrak provides...

On-Time Performance

February 2014: 11.6%

Last 12 Months: 22.0%

Link: http://www.amtrak.com/empire-builder-train&mode=perf&overrideDefaultTemplate=OTPPageHorizontalRouteOverview

So if you want to arrive on-time 11% of the time then the Empire Builder has you covered.

I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%? Really? So 1 out of every 5 days that the EB was late in February 2014 was somehow a passenger's fault? I find that really hard to believe.

And if you drill down even further, train # 27 was on time 0.0% of the time in February, and 77% of the time, it was a "Passenger" issue!

Well think about it, if it weren't for all those pesky passengers, they wouldn't have to run at all, hence would NEVER be late!

 

[montana mike]

A little side note to the EB's challenges. This has nothing directly to do with the Empire Builder or BNSF, but just something which demonstrates that things can be executed on time. I ordered an item from a firm in St. Paul, MN. It was shipped Monday PM (left the FedEx terminal11 PM Monday according to the FedEX logs) from MN. It just arrived, on time (via FedEx Ground) at 9 AM Wednesday at my house. Ironically, that's only somewhat longer than the amount of time it should take one of the EB's to go from MSP to WFH. FedEx is "on time" over 99% of the time, no matter what the weather, etc....

If FedEx can do this, one would think there would be a way BNSF and Amtrak could figure out how to run their respective trains on time as well.

Just musing over how well some things can still work..........

 

[Nobody in Particular]

"If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.

 

[neroden]

I meant to ask about this when I first looked at those stats - according to that link, only 42% of the EB's lateness in Febrary was due to "Train Interference", with "Passenger" being the second most likely cause of delays at 22%?

For reference, "passenger" usually means "we had to dig out the wheelchair lift, because like idiots we do not have level boarding yet".

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.

Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.

I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.