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If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Try again.

I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.
Please enlighten us all as to what exactly is this "interesting point" that's being made. Somehow I think that the better (and much more logical) explanation is that FedEx is transporting packages via the road network which is not heavily congested, whereas Amtrak is on a heavily congested rail line, and yet Amtrak usually makes it there faster than FedEx. But maybe I'm just crazy.
 
"If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
Not at all. If you know anything about commerce, both are in the transportation business. Both face many of the same challenges in moving their products/customers' goods from point A to Point B. All I was trying to point out that one firm finds a way to be one time almost every time-and still makes money at it. Granted Amtrak is at the mercy of a third party-big issue, but that doesn't automatically mean they should not strive to achieve the same results as FedEx.
 
If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Try again.

I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.
Please enlighten us all as to what exactly is this "interesting point" that's being made. Somehow I think that the better (and much more logical) explanation is that FedEx is transporting packages via the road network which is not heavily congested, whereas Amtrak is on a heavily congested rail line, and yet Amtrak usually makes it there faster than FedEx. But maybe I'm just crazy.
It was fedEx GROUND (NOT their expedited service). If I had wanted to pay an extra $15 I could have had the package the next morning!! If I really wanted to be greedy and shell out additional big $$ I could have gotten it that same evening. I ship a lot of FedEx ground pieces from our office in ROC, NY to WFH over the course of the year and we routinely get the packages in 2-3 days. If I take the LSL from ROC, change in CHI to the EB then go to WFH it is about the same time (assuming the EB is on schedule--LOL). My point was not to equate the timing, but the fact that FedEx delivers their products on time, almost all of the time. And at any given time they have literally millions of articles in their "system". Of the hundreds of packages we have sent to our offices and clients over just this past year, perhaps a couple didn't make it as scheduled, and we got a full refund for these miscues no questions asked!!

Nothing deep or sinister here, just a whimsical look at two different, yet in a way, similar transportation modes......
 
If A can do this, therefore B and C can" is an exercise in illogic.
Says the poster wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Try again.

I think the FedEx comparison makes an interesting point about the "Amtrak suffers because it's unionized" claim.
Please enlighten us all as to what exactly is this "interesting point" that's being made. Somehow I think that the better (and much more logical) explanation is that FedEx is transporting packages via the road network which is not heavily congested, whereas Amtrak is on a heavily congested rail line, and yet Amtrak usually makes it there faster than FedEx. But maybe I'm just crazy.
It was fedEx GROUND (NOT their expedited service). If I had wanted to pay an extra $15 I could have had the package the next morning!! If I really wanted to be greedy and shell out additional big $$ I could have gotten it that same evening. I ship a lot of FedEx ground pieces from our office in ROC, NY to WFH over the course of the year and we routinely get the packages in 2-3 days. If I take the LSL from ROC, change in CHI to the EB then go to WFH it is about the same time (assuming the EB is on schedule--LOL). My point was not to equate the timing, but the fact that FedEx delivers their products on time, almost all of the time. And at any given time they have literally millions of articles in their "system". Of the hundreds of packages we have sent to our offices and clients over just this past year, perhaps a couple didn't make it as scheduled, and we got a full refund for these miscues no questions asked!!

Nothing deep or sinister here, just a whimsical look at two different, yet in a way, similar transportation modes......
My "interesting point" comment was more pointed towards the "suffering because Amtrak is unionized" claim that DA was making (or bringing up,) not the general claim about FedEx.

think it's worth looking at FedEx and seeing why it's able to make commitments or transport packages as fast as it does and see if there's anything that Amtrak can pull from it. However, FedEx has a lot of differences from Amtrak as well (able to use road, rail, or air (if needed to make the time commitment,) not having to wait at a location if they're early, etc.) so an argument that if FedEx can make things run on time Amtrak can do the same is an ill-advised argument since Amtrak has different variables and restrictions to work with than FedEx does.
 
I'm not sure what that lesson is, though. Obviously meeting commitments is a big thing, and Amtrak should find a way to do that whenever possible. But Amtrak is also hamstrung by a couple things that FedEx isn't, the sum of which makes Amtrak late (and thus Amtrak can't "learn" how to fix these issues by looking at FedEx):

1. Amtrak, for the most part, must use train travel along the route. They do have the option to use buses, but many customers will be displeased with that option and demand a partial or full refund simply because they were transported by bus (even if they make it to their destination on time.) With FedEx, the package can take any transportation option (rail, road, air, and whatever other options that I have missed) and as long as it makes the deadline and arrives in the same condition it was shipped in, no one cares what method of transportation was used.

2. Building off of 1, Amtrak is not only limited to rail travel, it's limited to rail travel on a specific route, which in the case of the Empire Builder the owner is basically telling Amtrak that it can't run on-time and that it will be 4-6 hours late most days. Amtrak can't use a different route either, so they basically have the option to either just grin and bear it, drop the route, or lengthening the schedule (if the owner of the rails allows it.) With the latter option, Amtrak also has to make sure that they have some sort of clause to go back to the original time once the delays end unless they want to have the lengthened schedule indefinitely.

3. Amtrak, if they arrive to an intermediate point on their route early, cannot leave until the time they're scheduled to leave. FedEx can deliver a package earlier than promised and not have to stay at the customer's location until the committed time before they leave. Amtrak doesn't have that luxury.
 
Not to mention packages can get slapped around, tossed about, and generally abused while En Route, while passengers frown upon such treatment.

In most cases.
 
And is "Devil's Advocate" not himself wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows?
 
A little side note to the EB's challenges. This has nothing directly to do with the Empire Builder or BNSF, but just something which demonstrates that things can be executed on time. I ordered an item from a firm in St. Paul, MN. It was shipped Monday PM (left the FedEx terminal11 PM Monday according to the FedEX logs) from MN. It just arrived, on time (via FedEx Ground) at 9 AM Wednesday at my house. Ironically, that's only somewhat longer than the amount of time it should take one of the EB's to go from MSP to WFH. FedEx is "on time" over 99% of the time, no matter what the weather, etc....

If FedEx can do this, one would think there would be a way BNSF and Amtrak could figure out how to run their respective trains on time as well.

Just musing over how well some things can still work..........
Does FedEx tell you to the minute what time the package will arrive? When I order by Fedex or UPS they tell me the day and give me something like a 4-6 hour window. That's kind of like the Empire Builder. Most of the time Amtrak can tell you when you will arrive within 6 hours of your scheduled arrival time.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.
 
And is "Devil's Advocate" not himself wearing a mask and hiding in the shadows?
Actually he's not. All 5,400 of his posts are under the same account, so we know who he is. We know his name, and several people have met him in person.

Contrast that with you, we have no idea if this is your first post or your thousandth or what those other posts contain. We have no idea who you are.
 
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A little side note to the EB's challenges. This has nothing directly to do with the Empire Builder or BNSF, but just something which demonstrates that things can be executed on time. I ordered an item from a firm in St. Paul, MN. It was shipped Monday PM (left the FedEx terminal11 PM Monday according to the FedEX logs) from MN. It just arrived, on time (via FedEx Ground) at 9 AM Wednesday at my house. Ironically, that's only somewhat longer than the amount of time it should take one of the EB's to go from MSP to WFH. FedEx is "on time" over 99% of the time, no matter what the weather, etc....

If FedEx can do this, one would think there would be a way BNSF and Amtrak could figure out how to run their respective trains on time as well.

Just musing over how well some things can still work..........
Does FedEx tell you to the minute what time the package will arrive? When I order by Fedex or UPS they tell me the day and give me something like a 4-6 hour window. That's kind of like the Empire Builder. Most of the time Amtrak can tell you when you will arrive within 6 hours of your scheduled arrival time.

A Montanan who enjoys train travel.
Actually, as business we get great service. For overnight items the packages arrive between 9-10 AM the next day just about every time and for most of the others it is indeed a several hour window (usually 10 AM to about 2 PM). So I guess you are indeed right that Ground service is closer to the Empire Builder arrival times.

:)
 
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How much do you think FedEx would charge if you shipped something the weight and volume of a human plus luggage, and demanded it have enough space and amenities to be comfortable during the journey?
 
Wonder how on time Fedex would be if they had to ship their packages on UPS trucks?
 
from a new thread on TO: 4/15-5/31 the eb will leave sea 3 hours earlier and pdx 3 hours 5 minutes earlier
Is there any explanation on TO as to what the reasoning for the changes is? Is Amtrak doing some OTP study to see if it is worth making it permanent or just simply to accommodate track work?
 
Well, if they keep this schedule until all of the track work is done we are looking at 2+ years worth of schedule changes--which, as we all know might become "permanent". All Amtrak is doing is admitting the Empire Builder's run from SEA/PDX is now at least 3+ hours longer. I asked my BNSF contacts about this change this evening. Will let all know their comments if/when I receive something. Glad to see this confirms they will need to keep the extra train set going on this route, since there would be zero chance for any on time departures from the west coast without it. So looking at the new reality for us in WFH, this means a 0430 AM arrival going eastbound and somewhere around 10:30 to 11 PM arrival going westbound (although based on the last 30 days of delays I think more realistically still way after midnight) from now until some date in the future--bummer, but it is what it is...
 
What we don't know -- will the earlier schedule help BNSF fit the Builder thru the gauntlet faster? That depends on BNSF dispatching strategy, (and man they need the best they can get with so many delayed freights waiting all along the hi-line)

The earlier departure might actually help BNSF speeding the Empire Builder -- but no way to know.

We will have to wait and see.
 
i just received my "new" reservations from Amtrak, confirming the much earlier arrival time in WFH (4:30 AM) and the later arrival returning from the east (10:26).

Even with the longer day time hours in May the ride thru GNP will be mostly in the dark now, bummer.....
 
It looks like the eastbound Builder is scheduled to leave three hours early and start adding padding at MOT (80 minutes,) FAR (70 minutes,) and MSP (30 minutes) in order for the Builder to arrive at MSP at the old scheduled time of 7:05 AM.

I haven't done the math for the westbound Builders yet.
 
My BNSF guy got back to me. Interestingly, there was evidently long and animated discussions between BNSF and Amtrak on the continuing issues on the Hi-Line. BNSF had recommended a 4 hour "adjustment" in the schedule BOTH ways, but Amtrak chose a more conservative approach. As I said yesterday, while this is certainly more realistic, given the situation and the fact that congestion will likely get worse rather than better over the coming months I would not be surprised if a further schedule adjustment is forthcoming after the end of the May 31st timeframe. Time will tell. I am on one of these Builders in May and will see firsthand how well we make it thru the "gauntlet" (btw-the BNSF people now call that stretch just that. Some times they have 20+ trains in that area just trying to get thru. It is a real dispatcher's nightmare at times).
 
With all due respect to MM - I think the Fed Ex comparison is rather specious. Getting a book or a piece of cheese from A to B is a lot different than getting Mar & Pa Kettle from A to B.
 
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