Dark days ahead for the Cardinal?

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Oh, the Lake Shore Limited was started as a state supported train by New York and Ohio, and indeed there were some serious prime protectors of it back then. Ohio dropped support but New York picked up the slack and kept it going until the prime protectors were able to twist Amtrak's arms and foist it off onto them. So yeah, just because a train has had a prime protector does not mean it will always need it. We will see about the Cardinal.

Remember, the prime protector initially of the Texas Eagle was the riders group until they managed to catch Kay Bailey Hutchinson's attention.And thence it evolved into a train that did not need any immediate prime protector beyond the active riders association. The best prime protector are activist riders.

BTW, if something serious like cancellation were thought of for the Silver Meteor or Silver Star, I know of a few that will rise up as prime protectors. At present we are just worrying about getting adequate food service back on the Star. We are waiting eagerly for Boardman's departure to address that one in right earnest. We need someone in command who can disown previous decisions without losing face. That is why it is bad to have the same CEO for more than a few years specially if he starts going off the deep end.
Well the LSL and SM weren't on Brock Adams's hit list. Then again, neither was the BL. But we all know which train was and was actually cancelled before the prime protector butted in.
I haven't heard about this before. Please, tell me more.
 
I think the fact that the Cardinal needs a "prime protector" is telling. You know who's the prime protector of the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, and other successful trains? The riders.
Sometimes I wonder if you're actually a robot programmed to say the same words in varying orders.
 
Here's the robot's next comment.

This article specifically mentions Byrd's status as "protector" of the Cardinal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/04/07/amtrak-cuts-more-routes-across-nation/e526bc63-0b9e-41d5-8dc3-f8a2b075c696/

I'll even say eliminating Dallas-Houston could've been more stupid than eliminating the Broadway Limited. You save running a train what 300 miles?

And here's the real head scratcher. The proposal was to terminate the Cardinal in Cincinnati westbound (Washington-Cincinnati only) and Byrd "approved" of it. So in other words, let's cut off Indy and Chicago from the Cardinal completely and just run a train from Washington to Cincinnati. Can you imagine the Cardinal without running through Indy? Forget 100,000 a year, you'd be lucky to get 50,000 a year. If I had to save a portion of the Cardinal., absolutely Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati without a doubt and anyone who thinks otherwise must live in West Virginia.

Of course the CIN-CHI leg was spared but the Broadway and Dallas-Houston cuts were.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/AMTRAK'S+SERVICE+CHANGES+TO+THE+CARDINAL,+HOOSIER+STATE,+BROADWAY...-a017366297

I've blamed Congress for Amtrak's mistakes but in reality I shouldn't blame them all because of one bad apple. And why is he dictating Amtrak? I thought that was the job of the Secretary of Transportation.

Maybe we should stop acting like Byrd is a hero to Amtrak. He's a hero to West Virginia. To the rest of the country, he's selfish. He probably would've cut the CL and LSL to save the Cardinal too.
 
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It is the job of representatives to fight for services for their constituents. By design they are supposed to be selfish. I have no idea what you are moaning about, other than perhaps that you can't find a legislator who is willing to fight for your agenda. Posting the same stuff 1800 times here is not going to change that. Team up with like-minded people in your area and go and meet up with your Senator and Congressperson and convince them to take up your case. That might be more productive, though there are no guarantees.

That is what the Gulf Coast folks are doing. That is the way the system works in representative democracy. Admittedly sometimes the results are not anywhere near what I would like. However, as they say it is a ousy system, but the rest are even worse. ;)
 
The interesting thing is the C&O which is the Cardinal route all their trains terminated in Cincy. But that's where their trackage ended. Cincy at one time had several terminating trains. The New York Central, PRR, B&O, C&O, N&W, and Southern all had tons of trains terminate there. Philly you should read up on the railroad prior to amtrak. Then argue for the level of soft service(frills) and routes
 
Here's the robot's next comment.

This article specifically mentions Byrd's status as "protector" of the Cardinal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/04/07/amtrak-cuts-more-routes-across-nation/e526bc63-0b9e-41d5-8dc3-f8a2b075c696/

I'll even say eliminating Dallas-Houston could've been more stupid than eliminating the Broadway Limited. You save running a train what 300 miles?

And here's the real head scratcher. The proposal was to terminate the Cardinal in Cincinnati westbound (Washington-Cincinnati only) and Byrd "approved" of it. So in other words, let's cut off Indy and Chicago from the Cardinal completely and just run a train from Washington to Cincinnati. Can you imagine the Cardinal without running through Indy? Forget 100,000 a year, you'd be lucky to get 50,000 a year. If I had to save a portion of the Cardinal., absolutely Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati without a doubt and anyone who thinks otherwise must live in West Virginia.

Of course the CIN-CHI leg was spared but the Broadway and Dallas-Houston cuts were.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/AMTRAK'S+SERVICE+CHANGES+TO+THE+CARDINAL,+HOOSIER+STATE,+BROADWAY...-a017366297

I've blamed Congress for Amtrak's mistakes but in reality I shouldn't blame them all because of one bad apple. And why is he dictating Amtrak? I thought that was the job of the Secretary of Transportation.

Maybe we should stop acting like Byrd is a hero to Amtrak. He's a hero to West Virginia. To the rest of the country, he's selfish. He probably would've cut the CL and LSL to save the Cardinal too.
Once again, I'll say it: You're just jealous. Your defunct train is gone because even though it had a rich history, no one stood up and offered the money to save it. The REAL telling point of this article is this tidbit:

Key members of Congress have warned Amtrak that they would not vote to subsidize the heavily traveled coastal corridors unless the nation's heartland also has trains.
As I've mentioned in the past, members of Congress had the power to take action. They could have voted for more funding. They could have attached riders, voted for their states to chip in more or even spent money, saving the infrastructure that the hosts were downgrading or abandoning.

When Downs went to PA and Ohio, here's what they did when they could have saved the Broadway:

zilch-logo.jpg


zilch.png


Even the Western States said "run our trains....or else." Hell, even Don Young of HAWAII which is a state without trains threw his muscle behind all or nothing. You wish Pennsylvania would have had a Byrd....or ANYONE that would taken a stance.

They didn't. They didn't raise a stink, let alone a dollar.

So, please stop hijacking threads, whining about your unsupported train in a state that just recently saw the light and agreed to fund SEPTA, improvements to the Keystone corridor and backed off surrendering the Pennsylvanian.

During the time the Broadway was cut, Maine was planting the seeds that would germinate into the Downeaster service. That's because Olympia Snowe put her money where her mouth was and put a pit bull on the case, going so far as to roll on the host railroad:

Maine trains primarily haul freight, not people

Pan Am was forced into an arranged marriage with Amtrak two decades ago when the federally funded passenger rail service told Fink that it planned to run on Pan Am's privately owned tracks, like it or not.

Fink said it was a very rocky start, but that affection has grown in the past two decades.
"Patricia Quinn is the main reason that happened," said Fink. Quinn, who is the executive director of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA), shepherded the process of getting passenger rail to Maine over the past 12 years.

"Patricia came in with the attitude that she was a guest in our home," said Fink.
It was an approach that allowed a dialogue to begin and a relationship to bloom between Pan Am, NNEPRA and Amtrak. Pan Am's concern was that providing passenger service could compromise their freight service, which is the bulk of their business.

"We were very concerned that it not be detrimental to freight," he said. It wasn't. "We were able to add capacity for freight." - See more at: http://freepress60.1upprelaunch.com/Content/Special-Features/Special-Features/Article/All-Aboard-the-Train-to-Maine/52/78/23005#sthash.uSPsNX98.dpuf
That's fighting for a train...and twenty+ years ago, it was just a thought. They stepped up. Just like Senator Byrd.

Since PA and OH failed to do that for an existing train (let alone a new train), you really don't have an argument.

Therefore, blame your state senators and in the meantime, remember:

Vulcan Proverb.jpg

Concentrate on the future...not on the past.
 
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It really didn't matter what my senators thought or said because the FREAKING BOSS WON. Congress obviously couldn't afford both or it would have. So when it came to a vote, are you going to side with the Senate Majority Leader or anyone else? He had priority over everyone else and it was WRONG.

Byrd is the reason the Broadway was killed, plain and simple. I have to repeat it 1800 times because you didn't listen the first 1799. And in 1982, Congress could've saved any of the other canceled trains (Floridian, National Limited, Lone Star). Any of those trains would've been more useful than the Cardinal. The PM/TM numbers proved it. To this day, the Cardinal either has the worst or second to worst PM/TM of all LD trains and makes the least revenue of any of them. What did Congress do and WHY? If the other senators said "sure Robert" then we need a better system where trains are determined by ridership and revenue and not who's in charge of the Senate. I'll start campaigning Congress when civilians get to vote for who the Senate Majority leader is.

Killing this train once and for all may not bring back my train but if it means more coach cars/sleepers on the LSL and the Florida trains it will be a better investment. Or maybe the Silver Star can at least get a diner lite (as if you guys haven't been complaining about that as long as I have about this). Or maybe give the taxpayers back the money they stole from us to fund a train 95% of America will never ride. Other than state supported trains, the most number of stops in PA that any train makes is two (and one of those two stops on that train is Connelsville). Harrisburg and Lancaster only have state supported trains. West Virginia gets how many stops on the Cardinal and what does the state of West Virginia spend? We're all paying federal taxes on it. You and I shouldn't have to spend as much money on this train as people from West Virginia do. You may be paying to fund the Keystone and Pennsylvanian but I guarantee Pennsylvanians are paying more. If Pennsylvania has to pay more to get a direct train to Chicago, West Virginia should as well. That's fair.

The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia. And the solution isn't just we pay more taxes to Congress (if Congress raises Amtrak's budget, where do you think that money's coming from?). They'll just add trains in other rinky dink states nobody lives and nobody wants to go to. Notice the few high speed rail proposals out there almost none have the Cardinal route going high speed except for the important part of it, Chicago to Cincinnati. Because most people outside of West Virginia realize not many people live there and more people live in other places. The Amtrak model from the 70's doesn't work in 2016. You can't get a one seat ride daily from Chicago to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Houston, anywhere in New Jersey, anywhere in Florida, and (for now) Boston. But Chicagoans can visit Willston, North Dakota every day of the week! A new model is needed.

I can make my point without large photos insulting people. You should try it some time. And if you really want me to stop complaining, GIVE ME MY DAMN TRAIN BACK!
 
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The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia
I actually live in Tennessee, thank you very much, and I fully support the Cardinal because I understand its importance to the national system as a whole, in addition to the utility provided to West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana. Once again, pitting one train against another accomplishes nothing, and in fact actually works against the cause of greater passenger rail in this country (" trains for me but none for thee" is not a viable position).

The PM/TM numbers proved it. To this day, the Cardinal either has the worst or second to worst PM/TM of all LD trains and makes the least revenue of any of them.
There is always going to be a worst train, that should be obvious. Somewhere Wal-Mart has a worst performing store, and somewhere Honda has a worst dealership.Both may be well profitable, but somebody, somewhere has to come in last. Doesn't mean they are a poor performer and should be shut down, however. Discontinue the Cardinal and another train will be worst.
 
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Congress can afford to pay for as many or as few trains as it so chooses. As long as Amtrak is federally-supported, Congress will have an influence on what runs and what is funded. An influential/powerful member of Congress made sure a certain train survived. No one made an effective effort to save the other train. Had that other train had a similarly effective "patron" it is entirely possible it would have been saved as well.

Seems that any (understandable) frustration should be directed at those ineffective members of Congress, not the particular effective one. Or, better yet, direct that frustration into efforts to get one's current elected representatives (state and federal) to support increased rail service.

Or just complain about one person and one train in nearly every thread here.
 
It should be pointed out that the Cardinal is not the only train that survived due to the action of influential legislators. Another one that immediately comes to mind is the Texas Eagle and Kay Bailey Hutchinson. It went from tri-weekly to daily, and for a brief period even a fourth frequency got added between SAS and LAX.

To claim that legislators should not work towards supporting and saving trains that affect their constituents displays a ludicrous lack of understanding of how representative democracy is supposed to work. If you cannot get your representative to represent your position forcefully that ultimately is your misfortune. It is not the fault of the more effective legislators pushing causes of constituents in other places, and succeeding.

We need to focus on the positive and work towards building things instead of coming up with selfish schemes to bring others down.

It should be noted that Cardinal was restored using a special grant and specific language in legislation. Some one from Pennsylvania, if they cared could have done the same for the Broadway, but they didn't, and what is worse, when Amtrak asked for a pittance to fund through cars, no one in PA cared. Ultimately Amtrak added them anyway, and eventually restored service in the form of Three Rivers. As usual only sound of Crickets from PA mostly.

But really, let us stop navel gazing about what happened in the past and look to the future. Fortunately PA has a better government now and we are on the threshold of getting a second Pennsylvanian frequency. So let us focus on that. Eventually some through service to Chicago will come too if we work positively towards it instead of endlessly moaning about the Cardinal. You just lose support for your train when you try to bring someone else's train down. It is all politics at the end of the day irrespective of whether it is in the government's or private company's boardroom.

I can make my point without large photos insulting people. You should try it some time. And if you really want me to stop complaining, GIVE ME MY DAMN TRAIN BACK!
Now if that is not a little brat throwing a tantrum, I don't know what else is. Waaaahhh! Waaaaah! Waaaaah! :p

Do you really believe anyone on AU can give your train back if you complain enough here? If so, that also shows another profound disconnect from reality. Are you always into pointless bitching in places that can do nothing about addressing your issue?

BTW, even now we cannot seem to get unequivocal support from anyone in Pennsylvania for the through cars or any other west of Pittsburgh service. Everyone in Pennsylvania appears to think that is exclusively Ohio's problem. So go figure! I'd say your time would be spent more productively if you became active among the PA activists and started getting a focus group together in PA that will work with its legislators both at state and federal level to push for west of PA service. It is important for the likes of you to get your own house in order instead of spending your energy chucking bricks at others. ;)
 
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This may be crazy talk, but can we talk about the Cardinal and its future here, and you can start yet another thread complaining about you beloved train? That be great, and these derails are getting tiresome.
 
It is now becoming highly likely that NARP will spearhead a grassroots driven project (Virginia, West Virginia and Kentucky are very interested, and many other state ARPs will support the effort) to make the Cardinal daily. It will operate somewhat similar to the way the Gulf Coast Project has evolved. So keep your eyes open for if and when the project gets launched.

If you are a member of NARP and support the Cardinal going daily, please feel free to drop a line to NARP voicing your opinion on the matter. If you live in any state on the route of the Cardinal please engage with your local rail advocacy group and with the legislators that you can get hold of and voice your opinion of support.

Should there be any track downgrades, this will also be the rallying activity to deal with that eventuality.
 
If we are lucky in Ohio at least Ted Strickland will return to dc in the Senate' he started the 3C grant later killed bt Kasich. I talked with him when he was in the House and he supported rail and the Cardinal - he lives in Portsmouth. One more voice in the Senate can't hurt
 
Here in Charlottesville, Amtrak is evidently now requiring an expansion of the local train station as a precondition for a second daily NER. A private developer took over most of the original station and turned it into a restaurant. The current station is in the old baggage area and doesn't have enough waiting space for passengers when there is bad weather. Local officials are lobbying for federal dollars to get something done.

I expect that the expanded station may also be a stated requirement for a daily Cardinal as well.
 
Here in Charlottesville, Amtrak is evidently now requiring an expansion of the local train station as a precondition for a second daily NER. A private developer took over most of the original station and turned it into a restaurant. The current station is in the old baggage area and doesn't have enough waiting space for passengers when there is bad weather. Local officials are lobbying for federal dollars to get something done.

I expect that the expanded station may also be a stated requirement for a daily Cardinal as well.
I'd figure it'd be more for the Regional instead. 176 usually has a crazy number of people boarding at CVS. Around 100 ticketed passengers, plus all the monthly and 10-ticket riders.
 
If we are lucky in Ohio at least Ted Strickland will return to dc in the Senate' he started the 3C grant later killed bt Kasich. I talked with him when he was in the House and he supported rail and the Cardinal - he lives in Portsmouth. One more voice in the Senate can't hurt
Strickland does seem to be gaining some momentum against Portman and this could be a major victory toward bringing some train activity to Ohio if he is elected. Just two more years of Kasich before term limits send him along. A new governor would also improve chances for some corridor trains. :)
 
The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia
I actually live in Tennessee, thank you very much, and I fully support the Cardinal because I understand its importance to the national system as a whole, in addition to the utility provided to West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana. Once again, pitting one train against another accomplishes nothing, and in fact actually works against the cause of greater passenger rail in this country (" trains for me but none for thee" is not a viable position).

The PM/TM numbers proved it. To this day, the Cardinal either has the worst or second to worst PM/TM of all LD trains and makes the least revenue of any of them.
There is always going to be a worst train, that should be obvious. Somewhere Wal-Mart has a worst performing store, and somewhere Honda has a worst dealership.Both may be well profitable, but somebody, somewhere has to come in last. Doesn't mean they are a poor performer and should be shut down, however. Discontinue the Cardinal and another train will be worst.
Businesses such as Wal-Mart close their underperforming stores - http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2016/01/15/list-of-walmart-stores-closing/78852898/
 
The system is broken and we need to fix it. If you don't agree, you must live in West Virginia
I actually live in Tennessee, thank you very much, and I fully support the Cardinal because I understand its importance to the national system as a whole, in addition to the utility provided to West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana. Once again, pitting one train against another accomplishes nothing, and in fact actually works against the cause of greater passenger rail in this country (" trains for me but none for thee" is not a viable position).

The PM/TM numbers proved it. To this day, the Cardinal either has the worst or second to worst PM/TM of all LD trains and makes the least revenue of any of them.
There is always going to be a worst train, that should be obvious. Somewhere Wal-Mart has a worst performing store, and somewhere Honda has a worst dealership.Both may be well profitable, but somebody, somewhere has to come in last. Doesn't mean they are a poor performer and should be shut down, however. Discontinue the Cardinal and another train will be worst.
Businesses such as Wal-Mart close their underperforming stores - http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2016/01/15/list-of-walmart-stores-closing/78852898/
But there will still always be a worse performing store.
 
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