Dark days ahead for the Cardinal?

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If you want to push for a daily Cardinal, push for other new trains as well. If not, then you're choosing the Cardinal over the Broadway Limited or other trains. You can't tell me to spend more money for the Cardinal and not for other trains. If you don't want me to say the Broadway Limited is more important than the Cardinal, don't say the Cardinal is more important than the Broadway Limited either.

Sorry, but I do have to point out, that in practical terms, a real train IS more important than a fantasy one.

In practical terms, a daily Cardinal also is a fantasy at this moment. Some of you have to accept that maybe the Cardinal won't be daily a year or two from now (or will require a bit of money and/or track negotiations and improvements) and possibly if the track is downgraded it will take longer than it does right now. If that's the case, is it worth keeping? If so, how?

 

[jis]

So we move from discussing one fantasy to another, each somehow involving discontinuing the Cardinal. Quite an obsession you've got there eh?

 

[benale]

I remember when The Cardinal was a Superliner. Great views through New River. A Sightseer Car is so much nicer than watching the scenery from the cafe car on a Viewliner.

The Cardinal is one of two 3 day a week trains. The other is The Sunset Limited. The only time East or Westbound you get get on the Cardinal from The Eagle or Vice Versa with a same day connection is on Saturday Eastbound if you are taking the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles or any point West of San Antonio. In two weeks I'll be taking 422 from LA connecting with 50 and then 97 to Florida. Certainly didn't want to waste an AGR award on 91.. Glad it worked out that way. While 29/30 are Superliners and are faster, The Cardinal does offer some really amazing scenery.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

Does anyone have information about the status of the Virginia funded improvements on the Cardinal route on the Buckingham Branch railroad and the Orange,VA to Gordonsville upgrade from 30mph to 59mph track? Has the drop in the quantity of coal business reduced the volume of empty CSX coal trains on the Buckingham Branch RR which affect on-time performance?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

From an article in the Ashland, VA, Herald-Progress, about possible reroute on the D.C.-Richmond corridor to avoid downtown Ashland, comes ...

more gloom about the Cardinal route.

http://www.herald-progress.com/county-rescinds-initial-rail-recommendation/

...Ashland resident and former Amtrak engineer Doug Riddell sent a letter...expressing his professional advice...

“It’s not high speed rail, that’s not the issue,” Riddell said. “Capacity is the issue.”

He added that CSX is predicted to...downgrade the rails running through West Virginia and Kentucky. According to Riddell, CSX has found a more efficient route from Chicago to Pittsburgh, then through Washington D.C. down to Florida — which would result in traffic being “funneled” through Ashland.

The link was originally posted by jis in the "Richmond-Washington HSR Plans?" thread.

 

[jis]

Funny thing about that quote is that AFAIK there were very few through Chicago - Southeast trains that were ever run on the Cardinal route by CSX. That route is and was mostly about Coal trains. The through trains from west mostly ran through Washington anyway. So it is not like CSX suddenly decided to make a huge change for those.

 

[dlagrua]

We are discussing the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. The question becomes how this situation might affect the Cardinal schedule or the train itself.

I predict that a change in the Washington administration this Nov.will restore the coaling business boom big time. The Cardinal and the miners will be fine.

 

[CCC1007]

We are discussing the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. The question becomes how this situation might affect the Cardinal schedule or the train itself.

I predict that a change in the Washington administration this Nov.will restore the coaling business boom big time. The Cardinal and the miners will be fine.

The main problem in that area with coal is that what coal is left will cost more to mine than it currently is worth. No change in policy will directly bring it back.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Contradiction in terms: "Clean Coal"

Presidential Candidates Platforms re the Coal Industry:

GOTP Nominee: " Trust me! It'll be Huge! "

Demo-Socialist Nominee: "Were gonna put a lot of Coal Miners out of Work"! ( Biggest Gaffe of the Campaign so far!)

 

[Eric S]

We are discussing the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. The question becomes how this situation might affect the Cardinal schedule or the train itself.

I predict that a change in the Washington administration this Nov.will restore the coaling business boom big time. The Cardinal and the miners will be fine.

That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... the downgrade of the CSX lines through WV due to the loss of freight business caused by excessive over regulation of the coal industry. ...

That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic.

And coal is declining for technological reasons, as well. Solar power gets cheaper every year. Year after year. Every year. The competitive pressure won't be going away.

Fracking technology created an oil & gas production boom in the U.S., so that petroleum undercut coal prices.

And not technological: Saudi Arabia is pumping oil without any production limits, glutting the world market. (It's almost as if they fear that some emerging power source will soon displace the market for oil & gas, so sell it while they can ! )

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm sorry about the coal miners. They don't deserve it.

We should be working on plans to bring new jobs to the coal field regions, because the mining jobs aren't ever coming back.

btw. Canceling the Cardinal will not help West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky at all. They need every connection to the prosperous Eastern Seaboard they can get. A corridor train, Ashland-Huntington-Charleston-Charlottesville-D.C., as a second frequency on this line, would be helpful.

 

[andersone]

I live here. They used to have a 17 mile conveyor that ran directly from the mine to the power plant. It and all the coal jobs are gone. IT happens. Portsmouth used to be the shoe capital of the world. No more. Things change. Everyone has learned to live without coal, and my brothers and sisters across the river (West Virginia) will learn to live it with it too. It's not coming back. Its old technology. We have lived to learn without it. In the words of Thad Motta "Deal With It."

Change is the only consistency in life. This is one of them. CSX is only being realistic, My advice is to travel through the New River Gorge before the Cardinal dies. BTW, the prime protector of the Cardinal, Senator Robert Byrd is long gone. Enjoy it while you can because you never know when it is going to disappear (that's the two time cancer survivor in me) While you are at it, hug your loved ones a few extra times.

 

[neroden]

I've analyzed the energy businesses pretty intensively. We are watching the end of the fossil fuel age. It's going to be very exciting, actually.

Woody has summarized the market situation correctly.

 

[Palmland]

I talked with a CSX engineer in Florence. He had been laid off in Russell. He had heard the line from Russell to Columbus would be downgraded. Had heard nothing about doing same with rest of C&O main lines.

 

[dlagrua]

That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.

I would agree that coal use is declining in the USA but due to EPA regulation. if I am not mistaken though most of the coal that is mined in WV is exported to third world countries. PA anthracite hard coal is the clean coal as it burns with a blue flame.The coal in Southern WV is soft Bituminous coal and it needs a smoke stack scrubber to burn somewhat clean. It should be remembered that Amtrak runs most routes on fossil fuel and this also generates air pollution but far less pollution per passenger than in an automobile. Years back it was thought that nuclear fuel was the answer but look how that turned out.

As for this post on the Cardinal, transporting fuel oil and coal is the lifeblood of the railroad industry. If that goes away our railroad system goes away. .

 

[Eric S]

That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.

I would agree that coal use is declining in the USA but due to EPA regulation. if I am not mistaken though most of the coal that is mined in WV is exported to third world countries. PA anthracite hard coal is the clean coal as it burns with a blue flame.The coal in Southern WV is soft Bituminous coal and it needs a smoke stack scrubber to burn somewhat clean. It should be remembered that Amtrak runs most routes on fossil fuel and this also generates air pollution but far less pollution per passenger than in an automobile. Years back it was thought that nuclear fuel was the answer but look how that turned out.

As for this post on the Cardinal, transporting fuel oil and coal is the lifeblood of the railroad industry. If that goes away our railroad system goes away. .

I'd refer you to Woody's post above. Coal is declining due to economic and technological reasons, not strictly political/regulatory reasons.

And I highly doubt that the railroad system will "go away" if coal and oil continue to decline.

 

[CCC1007]

That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.

I would agree that coal use is declining in the USA but due to EPA regulation. if I am not mistaken though most of the coal that is mined in WV is exported to third world countries. PA anthracite hard coal is the clean coal as it burns with a blue flame.The coal in Southern WV is soft Bituminous coal and it needs a smoke stack scrubber to burn somewhat clean. It should be remembered that Amtrak runs most routes on fossil fuel and this also generates air pollution but far less pollution per passenger than in an automobile. Years back it was thought that nuclear fuel was the answer but look how that turned out.As for this post on the Cardinal, transporting fuel oil and coal is the lifeblood of the railroad industry. If that goes away our railroad system goes away. .

I'd refer you to Woody's post above. Coal is declining due to economic and technological reasons, not strictly political/regulatory reasons.
And I highly doubt that the railroad system will "go away" if coal and oil continue to decline.

Especially since most products travel by train at least once in their production lines.

 

[jis]

Actually the adjustments that the railroads have to make to deal with high value time sensitive goods as compared to relatively time insensitive bulk items will inevitably have to hammer some discipline into their dispatching systems and dispatchers, and move more towards a scheduled railroad away from "Oh we will run it whenever we can and feel like it" approach. Which at the end of the day can only be good for the scheduled passenger services trying to be tenants on the railroad.

 

[tricia]

That's true if, and only if, the reason coal is declining is political, rather than economic. Evidence suggests otherwise though.

I would agree that coal use is declining in the USA but due to EPA regulation.

Diagrua's position seems to be: Don't confuse me with the facts.

 

[jis]

Speaking of Anthracite and its central importance mentioned by dlagrua, I found this informative slideset:

http://www.marston.com/portals/0/coaltrans_antra_poland_2009.pdf

I was shocked to learn that in today's world, US is considered to be a minor produces and even more minor exporter and most of the export apparently is to Canada!

the biggest reserves are in China, Russia and Viet Nam. China is by far the largest producer, producing an order of magnitude more than the US. Other western countries that mine Anthracite are Canada, UK and Germany, with Spain contributing a bit.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Change is the only consistency in life. This is one of them. CSX is only being realistic, My advice is to travel through the New River Gorge before the Cardinal dies. BTW, the prime protector of the Cardinal, Senator Robert Byrd is long gone. Enjoy it while you can because you never know when it is going to disappear (that's the two time cancer survivor in me) While you are at it, hug your loved ones a few extra times.

I think the fact that the Cardinal needs a "prime protector" is telling. You know who's the prime protector of the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, and other successful trains? The riders.

 

[jis]

Oh, the Lake Shore Limited was started as a state supported train by New York and Ohio, and indeed there were some serious prime protectors of it back then. Ohio dropped support but New York picked up the slack and kept it going until the prime protectors were able to twist Amtrak's arms and foist it off onto them. So yeah, just because a train has had a prime protector does not mean it will always need it. We will see about the Cardinal.

Remember, the prime protector initially of the Texas Eagle was the riders group until they managed to catch Kay Bailey Hutchinson's attention.And thence it evolved into a train that did not need any immediate prime protector beyond the active riders association. The best prime protector are activist riders.

BTW, if something serious like cancellation were thought of for the Silver Meteor or Silver Star, I know of a few that will rise up as prime protectors. At present we are just worrying about getting adequate food service back on the Star. We are waiting eagerly for Boardman's departure to address that one in right earnest. We need someone in command who can disown previous decisions without losing face. That is why it is bad to have the same CEO for more than a few years specially if he starts going off the deep end.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Maybe if Joe retires to Florida the Star will get the Diner back PDQ!

 

[jis]

I know for a fact that Joe is retiring to somewhere around Rome, New York. He told us so in Silver Spring at the NARP meeting!

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Oh, the Lake Shore Limited was started as a state supported train by New York and Ohio, and indeed there were some serious prime protectors of it back then. Ohio dropped support but New York picked up the slack and kept it going until the prime protectors were able to twist Amtrak's arms and foist it off onto them. So yeah, just because a train has had a prime protector does not mean it will always need it. We will see about the Cardinal.

Remember, the prime protector initially of the Texas Eagle was the riders group until they managed to catch Kay Bailey Hutchinson's attention.And thence it evolved into a train that did not need any immediate prime protector beyond the active riders association. The best prime protector are activist riders.

BTW, if something serious like cancellation were thought of for the Silver Meteor or Silver Star, I know of a few that will rise up as prime protectors. At present we are just worrying about getting adequate food service back on the Star. We are waiting eagerly for Boardman's departure to address that one in right earnest. We need someone in command who can disown previous decisions without losing face. That is why it is bad to have the same CEO for more than a few years specially if he starts going off the deep end.

Well the LSL and SM weren't on Brock Adams's hit list. Then again, neither was the BL. But we all know which train was and was actually cancelled before the prime protector butted in.