Dark days ahead for the Cardinal?

[MikefromCrete]

if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?

It's possible, but the states are Kentucky, which hasn't gotten into the passenger business before, and Ohio, where the governor, Republican presidential hopeful Kaisch, once cancelled the Three C's intra-Ohio service before it could get started and called passenger train supporters "cultists." Of course, Kansas, Colorado and New Mexico never did anything for LD passenger trains before the Southwest Chief crisis, so anything can happen.

 

[jis]

But Colorado and New Mexico did support new regional train service. Can't say that for Kentucky or Ohio. OTOH Indiana does support such, though apparently quite reluctantly.

 

[west point]

Anderson: A quick calculation of 30 MPH MAS Russell - Cincinnati including the stops and refueling seems to change the enroute time from 3:20 to 5:20. wonder how bad that would be ?

 

[MikefromCrete]

The Cardinal already takes more than 3 hours to go the 123 miles from Indianapolis to Cincinnati, so I don't think the additional time will cause a mass exodus of passengers. Nobody rides the Cardinal for a fast ride.

 

[MattW]

The railfan in me couldn't help but chuckle at the title. If CSX truly downgrades the line, they may remove the signaling thus making it "dark" for the Cardinal in other ways than just the metaphorical!

 

[neroden]

if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?

We don't know. CSX is known for making outlandish "ransom level" price requests as a starting point in negotiations, and then giving in for much more reasonable prices.

The cities along this part of the line have a strong record of advocacy for train service, which is a good thing. Kentucky state government is a big question mark. I can't think of anyone in KY state government with the same reputation for *hostility* to train service as the Kasich gang in Ohio.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and, to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash?

The PRIIA study said the Cardinal could lose a measly $2 million more a year by going daily.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/536/878/PRIIA-210-Cardinal-PIP.pdf

pages 7 & 8

That small number is out of date, from 2009. Today going daily might actually generate NO added operating loss.

It's quite conceivable that the Virginia DOT might step up and promise to cover any added loss -- especially if it believes there won't be any such thing.

So the daily thing should be a non-factor. Losing good trackage and adding 3 hours to the trip could present a very large but very different problem.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

As a general principle, we don't need to cut any Amtrak route. We need to add more routes, like the Broadway Limited, because the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.

That costs more money. How do we get it? That requires more equipment. How do we get it? More money. How do we get it?

If Amtrak has a limited amount of equipment and money, we're all fighting for it. So if I want a certain train, I can either try to get more money (which looks like it isn't happening) or say well why not cut this train so we can get the equipment/money. We shouldn't be competing for trains but harsh reality ... we are. Unless you have a plan to get more money. And if Congress actually decides to spend more money, you can probably guess where it's coming from.

. . . what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and, to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash?

The PRIIA study said the Cardinal could lose a measly $2 million more a year by going daily.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/536/878/PRIIA-210-Cardinal-PIP.pdf

pages 7 & 8

That small number is out of date, from 2009. Today going daily might actually generate NO added operating loss.

It's quite conceivable that the Virginia DOT might step up and promise to cover any added loss -- especially if it believes there won't be any such thing.

I'll believe it when I see it. Amtrak asked for a daily Cardinal over five years ago and we still don't have it. You still have to negotiate with Buckingham Branch and CSX. Nobody knows what that price tag is going to be.

And if you want any help from Kentucky and Ohio you might want to make the train more attractive to them. If I were the governor of Ohio or the mayor of Cincinnati, I wouldn't raise my residents' taxes or cut any important spending like education or health care to pay for a train that serves my city/state during the graveyard shift.

So the daily thing should be a non-factor. Losing good trackage and adding 3 hours to the trip could present a very large but very different problem.

You'd either lose the connection to the west and/or the arrival times in NYP will be during the graveyard shift.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

OK, let me go from a different angle.

There are some of you who want and are pushing for a daily Cardinal but also would like to see new and/or revived trains as well. People ask me why should I have to choose between the Cardinal and the Broadway Limited and ask me why not both. I mention the cost factor but assuming cost is not a factor or can be resolved with better Congress budgeting, I have no problem supporting BOTH making the Cardinal daily AND reviving the Broadway (the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian through cars as proposed would eliminate the required transfer but not the four hour layover in PGH going west). If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And I'm not saying just the Broadway, why not other routes like 3-C, Louisville/Nashville service, service between NOL and Florida? I'm not against growing the system. The best cure for Amtrak is more Amtrak? I don't disagree.

The problem I mainly have is people pouring cold water and saying the BL or other new/revived trains will never happen. They say we don't have the money and/or the freight companies won't allow it. If that is true, then the Cardinal isn't going daily because ... we don't have the money and/or the freight companies won't allow it.

If you want to push for a daily Cardinal, push for other new trains as well. If not, then you're choosing the Cardinal over the Broadway Limited or other trains. You can't tell me to spend more money for the Cardinal and not for other trains. If you don't want me to say the Broadway Limited is more important than the Cardinal, don't say the Cardinal is more important than the Broadway Limited either.

 

[tricia]

if CSX is going to downgrade the route, what would be the cost for Amtrak (with the states and special Fed funding) to upgrade the track and to better justify the cost, move to a daily train. Can the states raise a lot of the needed cash? Could the state's US Senators and Reps, plus the Governors put forth acceptable proposals in Congress for funding in addition to the states and Amtrak?

It's possible, but the states are Kentucky, which hasn't gotten into the passenger business before, and Ohio, where the governor, Republican presidential hopeful Kaisch, once cancelled the Three C's intra-Ohio service before it could get started and called passenger train supporters "cultists." Of course, Kansas, Colorado and New Mexico never did anything for LD passenger trains before the Southwest Chief crisis, so anything can happen.

Current political climate in Kentucky isn't supportive of gov't funding of ANYTHING. For example, here's a quote from a usually well-informed poster on a different listserv, focusing on cuts in education funding: "The proposed budget, supported by the Tea Party Governor of Kentucky, that passed the Kentucky Senate calls for a 4.5% cut [in education funding] before the end of the fiscal year and a 9% reduction for the next two years. (The 9% cuts are also planned for all other state agencies.) The Kentucky house has a counter proposal that freezes all education at current levels. "

 

[andersone]

The best thing that could happen to Ohio Rail is Kasich moving to the big house. Uncle Ted ( a good Portsmouth man) is running for Senator (against another Appalachian Portman) and his old district covered almost the entirety of the Cardinal Route (albeit across the river) . Ted knows about the Card. Unfortunately it is KY that holds the key,, get it to Huntington and you are back in WVA and almost heaven.

 

[west point]

If the additional 2 hours are added to arrivals / departures at NYP that might work. It could work with the present NEC routes by taking slot(s) WASH <> NYP. Could add subtract cars at WASH much like the Palmetto is done now improving the fare return for the CARDINAL. Problem of late arrivals into WASH would need thought.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If the additional 2 hours are added to arrivals / departures at NYP that might work.

That would be departure at 4:45am and arrival at 11:58pm. Still think it works? Arriving at 11:58pm is pretty undesirable. Leaving at 4:45am? Are you kidding me. Watch NYP ridership plummet. Might as well truncate at WAS then.

 

[west point]

But the times proposed at NYP is in slots that already used by regional trains. Actually more passengers NYP <> WASH. The need to rotate the equipment at Sunnyside to the Crescent and silver service has to be considered. Granted there might be some passenger loss NEC to intermediate stations to Indianapolis but the importance of western connections at CHI cannot be overlooked.

 

[JoeBas]

If you want to push for a daily Cardinal, push for other new trains as well. If not, then you're choosing the Cardinal over the Broadway Limited or other trains. You can't tell me to spend more money for the Cardinal and not for other trains. If you don't want me to say the Broadway Limited is more important than the Cardinal, don't say the Cardinal is more important than the Broadway Limited either.

Sorry, but I do have to point out, that in practical terms, a real train IS more important than a fantasy one.

 

[CCC1007]

If the additional 2 hours are added to arrivals / departures at NYP that might work.

That would be departure at 4:45am and arrival at 11:58pm. Still think it works? Arriving at 11:58pm is pretty undesirable. Leaving at 4:45am? Are you kidding me. Watch NYP ridership plummet. Might as well truncate at WAS then.

If the Card is turned at WAS, might as well free up the single level equipment and scrape together some superliner sets for it. Back in the late 90's early 2000's, this train ran with a coach baggage, a coach, a lounge, and a sleeper dragged by a single locomotive.

 

[jis]

From sadly, the ever decreasing pool of available Superliner cars of course. We have to wait until the Midwest and California regional bi-levels are delivered to free up barely enough to make that possible I suppose.

 

[PRR 60]

Let's keep the discussion here specific to the Cardinal and directly related issues. Discussion about new or revived services can be taken to the Amtrak Future sub-forum.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

From sadly, the ever decreasing pool of available Superliner cars of course. We have to wait until the Midwest and California regional bi-levels are delivered to free up barely enough to make that possible I suppose.

Nippon Sharyu, where are you?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Let's keep the discussion here specific to the Cardinal and directly related issues. Discussion about new or revived services can be taken to the Amtrak Future sub-forum.

The question of whether to pit one train, real or hypothetical, and how to pay for them in either case, is a good one for discussion.

Could you carve out most of the recent either/or posts to create a new thread?

 

[Palmland]

Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.

Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars. That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to. Route miles saved would do a lot to offsetting the cost of a daily train as far as Cinci from DC. Then add multiple Thruway connection from Huntington and/or Cinci to central Ohio and Kentucky cities. It appears CSX is shifting traffic away from Cincinnati and with a lower speed might make it possible to use that as leverage to negotiate storage/servicing track in Cinci and the daily service on a shorter route. That still leaves three trains (counting the Pennsylvanian/CL connection) to serve through traffic from the NEC to Chicago.

 

[JoeBas]

Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars.

That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to.

Not to New York you don't. Why does it "NEED" a SSL?

 

[A Voice]

Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.

Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars. That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to. Route miles saved would do a lot to offsetting the cost of a daily train as far as Cinci from DC. Then add multiple Thruway connection from Huntington and/or Cinci to central Ohio and Kentucky cities. It appears CSX is shifting traffic away from Cincinnati and with a lower speed might make it possible to use that as leverage to negotiate storage/servicing track in Cinci and the daily service on a shorter route. That still leaves three trains (counting the Pennsylvanian/CL connection) to serve through traffic from the NEC to Chicago.

Amtrak is only getting enough Viewliner II diners for existing single level long distance trans, unless the Silver Star really is left permanently without a diner (and I don't believe that), and just enough sleepers to provide for the "extras" already needed. Moving some to the Capitol Limited would take up cars needed elsewhere, and you would still have the problem of finding more Amfleet II coaches (where are they to come from?). Actually, why does the Cardinal need Superliners worse than the Capitol Limited does?

Truncating the Cardinal at Cincinnati would seriously harm ridership; What about all the people currently traveling through Cincinnati and Indianapolis? You're not going to keep (most of) those passengers with a Thruway bus connection.

People are still pitting one train against another (the old "trains for me but none for thee" theme). That doesn't help the cause.

 

[CCC1007]

Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.

Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars. That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to. Route miles saved would do a lot to offsetting the cost of a daily train as far as Cinci from DC. Then add multiple Thruway connection from Huntington and/or Cinci to central Ohio and Kentucky cities. It appears CSX is shifting traffic away from Cincinnati and with a lower speed might make it possible to use that as leverage to negotiate storage/servicing track in Cinci and the daily service on a shorter route. That still leaves three trains (counting the Pennsylvanian/CL connection) to serve through traffic from the NEC to Chicago.

Amtrak is only getting enough Viewliner II diners for existing single level long distance trans, unless the Silver Star really is left permanently without a diner (and I don't believe that), and just enough sleepers to provide for the "extras" already needed. Moving some to the Capitol Limited would take up cars needed elsewhere, and you would still have the problem of finding more Amfleet II coaches (where are they to come from?). Actually, why does the Cardinal need Superliners worse than the Capitol Limited does?

Truncating the Cardinal at Cincinnati would seriously harm ridership; What about all the people currently traveling through Cincinnati and Indianapolis? You're not going to keep (most of) those passengers with a Thruway bus connection.

People are still pitting one train against another (the old "trains for me but none for thee" theme). That doesn't help the cause.

I was simply saying that if the cardinal is cut back to Washington, it would be better to convert it to superliner as it would not take many cars to do so, and would free up some viewliners to use elsewhere.

 

[A Voice]

Why not make the Capitol a Viewliner train with the new cars coming on line. It would make the Pittsburgh connection easier - if they find the funding for the new switch that's needed. It would also make it possible to extend the Capitol to Phila/NY.

Then make the Cardinal a daily train to Cincinnati with Superliner cars. That route really needs a SSL on it. Indiana can fund a daily Hoosier if they want to. Route miles saved would do a lot to offsetting the cost of a daily train as far as Cinci from DC. Then add multiple Thruway connection from Huntington and/or Cinci to central Ohio and Kentucky cities. It appears CSX is shifting traffic away from Cincinnati and with a lower speed might make it possible to use that as leverage to negotiate storage/servicing track in Cinci and the daily service on a shorter route. That still leaves three trains (counting the Pennsylvanian/CL connection) to serve through traffic from the NEC to Chicago.

Amtrak is only getting enough Viewliner II diners for existing single level long distance trans, unless the Silver Star really is left permanently without a diner (and I don't believe that), and just enough sleepers to provide for the "extras" already needed. Moving some to the Capitol Limited would take up cars needed elsewhere, and you would still have the problem of finding more Amfleet II coaches (where are they to come from?). Actually, why does the Cardinal need Superliners worse than the Capitol Limited does?

Truncating the Cardinal at Cincinnati would seriously harm ridership; What about all the people currently traveling through Cincinnati and Indianapolis? You're not going to keep (most of) those passengers with a Thruway bus connection.

People are still pitting one train against another (the old "trains for me but none for thee" theme). That doesn't help the cause.

I was simply saying that if the cardinal is cut back to Washington, it would be better to convert it to superliner as it would not take many cars to do so, and would free up some viewliners to use elsewhere.

I'd agree with that, so long as there are more available Superliners than there is single level equipment. But taking those Superliners away from the Capitol Limited wouldn't help.