Amtrak Fares

[battalion51]

Maybe Amtrak needs to do a better job at explaining its pricing system on its website. It seems that many people find it aggravating, baffling or even arrogant. In actuality, it's of course a lot simpler than the airlines but people seem to be more forgiving of them for whatever reason.

Well then we need a lot of disclaimers in a lot of places. Amtrak is like every other travel company. If people don't get Yield Management then they need to come into some Econ and Accounting classes to learn about it, it's not Amtrak's responsibility to explain its method of pricing to the consumer. Here's our price, take it or leave it.

 

[Dinker]

Maybe Amtrak needs to do a better job at explaining its pricing system on its website. It seems that many people find it aggravating, baffling or even arrogant. In actuality, it's of course a lot simpler than the airlines but people seem to be more forgiving of them for whatever reason.

Well then we need a lot of disclaimers in a lot of places. Amtrak is like every other travel company. If people don't get Yield Management then they need to come into some Econ and Accounting classes to learn about it, it's not Amtrak's responsibility to explain its method of pricing to the consumer. Here's our price, take it or leave it.

I don't mean a disclaimer; of course, it's not Amtrak's responsibility to explain this. However, like any other company, Amtrak would do well to please as many customers as it can. Since the pricing system, if the posts on this forum are any judge, seems to annoy a lot of people when it really should be pleasing them (due to its transparency compared to the airline pricing system), I imagine a link to a small paragraph explaining that as trains fill up, the price goes up and that one should buy one's tickets early for this reason might do some good. Maybe there is such already on the website but if there is, it is hidden away somewhere.

I also note that the Amtrak agent didn't seem to be particularly expansive about how the pricing system works and why it's really not that complicated compared to the airlines when this topic's original poster was talking with him or her.

 

[Trogdor]

I don't think the posts on this forum are a judge of anything. They would be heavily weighted towards people that have a gripe about the system, and even then, people are only going to come from random corners of the internet if they have strong feelings about it one way or the other.

Then again, we've already had a couple of people compare Amtrak to the airlines, and one who said he'd gladly pay a few dollars extra to change his ticket to get home earlier.

Amtrak has one of the more straightforward pricing systems out there. There aren't many airlines that even have such an openly clear pricing system. In fact, the only one I can think of offhand (here in the US) is Southwest Airlines.

For example, I just went to southwest.com and randomly selected San Diego to San Jose roundtrip from December 17 to December 29.

I get 9 northbound and 10 southbound flights. I can "choose" my fare, $44 "Internet one-way," $49 "promotional," $69-89 "fun fares" (and even here, is my fare $69 or is it $89?), $99 "Advance purchase," $119 "Special" and $129 "refundable anytime." Except that the $44 and $49 fares aren't available on three of the northbound flights, and are only available on ONE of the southbound flights (the one that leaves at the ever-so-convenient time of 6:45 am).

Gee, what a horrible company Southwest must be for charging me more to take flights that are in more demand.

Additionally, those prices exclude certain taxes and fees.

On the other hand, Amtrak's quoted price is the price you pay (which is the way it should be, IMO). The other difference is that, even if Amtrak and Southwest both have different fare levels for the exact same seats on the exact same trips, at least with Amtrak, all fares have the same rules (with the exception being if you use certain discount codes, or get their heavily-discounted "weekly specials"). In other words, your $49 fare is just as refundable as your $99 fare.

In that sense, Amtrak's fare rules are more open, honest, and customer friendly than even Southwest Airlines' fares, and Southwest is more open about their fare levels than most, if not all, other airlines in the country.

So, I think that perhaps we ought not be complaining about Amtrak's pricing structure, and pounding our fists on the ground screaming at the top of our lungs about how horrible Amtrak's fares are. There's no need for Amtrak to explain their "bucket" system because it would probably be over most people's heads anyway. People just need to realize that prices are subject to change. Just as they are on airlines.

You want to drive instead? Then let's take a look at gasoline. Last night, the price could have been $2.25. This morning, the price could be $2.37. Tomorrow, the price could be $2.32. It's all the same gas. Do you get a refund if you bought 20 gallons at $2.37 and went back the next morning and saw that it was selling for $2.32?

 

[MrFSS]

Buying paint from a hardware store ...

Customer: Hi, how much is your paint?

Clerk: We have regular quality for $12 a gallon and premium for $18. How many gallons would you like?

Customer: Five gallons of regular quality, please.

Clerk: Great. That will be $60 plus tax.

Buying paint from an airline ...

Customer: Hi, how much is your paint?

Clerk: Well, Sir that all depends.

Customer: Depends on what?

Clerk: Actually, a lot of things.

Customer: How about giving me an average price?

Clerk: Wow that's too hard a question. The lowest price is $9 a gallon, and we have 150 different prices up to $200 a gallon.

Customer: What's the difference in the paint?

Clerk: Oh, there isn't any difference, it's all the same paint.

Customer: Well, then, I'd like some of that $9 paint.

Clerk: Well, First I need to ask you a few questions. When do you intend to use it?

Customer: I want to paint tomorrow, on my day off.

Clerk: Sir, the paint for tomorrow is $200 paint.

Customer: What? When would I have to paint in order to get $9 paint?

Clerk: That would be in three weeks, but you will also have to agree to start painting before Friday of that week and continue painting until at least Sunday.

Customer: You've got to be kidding!

Clerk: Sir, we don't kid around here. Of course, I'll have to check to see if we have any of that paint available before I can sell it to you.

Customer: What do you mean check to see if you can sell it to me? You have shelves full of that stuff; I can see it right there.

Clerk: Just because you can see it doesn't mean that we have it. It may be the same paint, but we sell only a certain number of gallons on any given weekend. Oh, and by the way, the price just went up to $12.

Customer: You mean the price went up while we were talking?

Clerk: Yes sir. You see, we change prices and rules thousands of times a day, and since you haven't actually walked out of the store with your paint yet, we just decided to change. Unless you want the same thing to happen again, I would suggest you get on with your purchase. How many gallons do you want?

Customer: I don't know exactly ... maybe five gallons. Maybe I should buy six gallons just to make sure I have enough.

Clerk: Oh, no sir, you can't do that. If you buy the paint and then don't use it, you will be liable for penalties and possible confiscation of the paint you already have.

Customer: What?

Clerk: That's right. We can sell you enough paint to do your kitchen, bathroom, hall and north bedroom, but if you stop painting before you do the other bedroom, you will be in violation of our tariffs.

Customer: But what does it matter to you whether I use all of the paint? I already paid you for it!

Clerk: Sir, there's no point in getting upset; that's just the way it is. We make plans based upon the idea that you will use all of the paint, and when you don't, it just causes us all sorts of problems.

Customer: This is crazy! I suppose something terrible will happen if I don't keep painting until Sunday night?

Clerk: Yes sir, it will.

Customer: Well, that does it! I am going somewhere else to buy paint!

Clerk: That won't do you any good, sir. We all have the same rules. You might as well just buy it here, while the price is still $13.50. Thanks for flying - I mean painting - with our airline.

 

[haolerider]

This is probably enough said about pricing on Amtrak or the airlines. If people don't understand the basic principles, they will never understand the explanations. Supply/Demand - simple enough?

I suspect we will never hear from the original poster - who simply wanted to vent. I would hope her daughter takes enough classes to explain the theory to her mother when she is home for the holidays - a trip which, by the way, will cost more no matter how she travels - even by car!

 

[PRR 60]

I think one problem with Amtrak’s yield management system as compared to the airlines is the manner in which Amtrak’s fare buckets are hidden within what, from the outside, appears to be one fare class. Basically, airlines set buckets by setting inventories for separately identified fare classes. Amtrak sets inventories by allocating seats within one fare class. This hides the practice in a way the airline system doesn’t and provides, in my opinion, a negative public perception of Amtrak’s practice. The airline buckets are visible. Amtrak’s are not.

Airline yield management is performed by assigned seat inventory to a set of fare classes. Each fare class comes with a unique set of terms and conditions regarding advance purchase, minimum stay, flexibility and refundability. Within each of those fare classes there is no bucketing. A “Q” fare is a “Q” fare. There is no low bucket “Q” or high bucket “Q”. Even more to the Amtrak point is the full-fare coach ticket, Class “Y”. That is the flexible, refundable, non-restricted fare. There are no buckets within the “Y” fare. You buy Y, you have Y.

When someone buys an airline ticket the restrictive nature of a discounted ticket is clearly noted on the ticket and the full T&C’s of the each fare class is readily available at the airline’s web site or even at third party agency sites like Expedia. Unless a person has not traveled in the last 30 years, people know that an advance purchase, deep discount ticket is very restrictive. If they have to change it or cancel, they know they will pay. On the other hand, if a person buys a full coach airline ticket (Class Y) they paid a premium and expect it to be flexible and refundable, and it is. They may have to pay a fare difference if the general Y fare has gone up, but that would not be because of inventory buckets and any such difference would be small.

Amtrak is both better and worse than the airlines in their yield management process. The good side is that all Amtrak “Adult” tickets in all buckets are non-restricted and refundable. This is the functional equal to the airline Y” class. That is much better for passengers than the restricted discount airline tickets. But the bad side is that Amtrak’s yield management system - the fare buckets - exists within the what would appear to be a single fare class. That is not at all like the airlines. Someone who purchases a low-bucket Amtrak “Adult” ticket has no warning that this seemingly fully flexible ticket may require a substantial additional payment if any changes are made close to the travel date. To even a pretty savvy traveler, they are holding the equal to a airline “Y” ticket, or so they think. There is no way they would expect to pay a 20, 30, or 40% premium to change that ticket at the last minute. When they do, they get mad. And I do not blame them.

Like so many other things, Amtrak plan to apply a yield management system to fares is fine but their actual process is lacking. What is my suggestion? Amtrak should identify every fare bucket other than the top bucket as a “discount” fare. Tickets for all non-top bucket fares should clearly state that changes may require “substantial” addition fare. Essentially all buckets other than the top should be identified as different fare class. People should know up front the potential consequences of changing what for all the world looks like a flexible ticket from an airline perspective. People get mad when they are unpleasantly surprised. Let’s not surprise them.

 

[racer1735]

WHY? Uhm, airlines reducing fares like mad, lowest advance purchase fare now $185 round trip. Uhm, sit upright no sleep for 2 days for almost 4 times the airline fare price. No thank you, I've changed my mind primarily because of the large % increase in the fare.

No, you won't be sitting bolt uprigth. The seats are MUCH wider than those on an airliner, recline MUCH farther than an airliner...almost horizontal, have leg rests which rise up, as well as footrests on the seat in front of you. Granted, its not like laying in bed in a sleeping compartment, but to compare coach seating to that of an airliner is a gross inaccuracy.

 

[PRR 60]

...The seats are MUCH wider than those on an airliner, recline MUCH farther than an airliner...almost horizontal, have leg rests which rise up, as well as footrests on the seat in front of you. Granted, its not like laying in bed in a sleeping compartment, but to compare coach seating to that of an airliner is a gross inaccuracy.

To be accurate, Amtrak seats do not recline to anywhere near a horizontal position. Amtrak long distance seats are larger, have more space, and recline more than an airline coach seat, but they are still just seats. They are not like the flat sleeper seats in long haul aircraft. The are comfortable for some, and uncomfortable for others.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Buying paint from a hardware store ...
Customer: Hi, how much is your paint?

Clerk: We have regular quality for $12 a gallon and premium for $18. How many gallons would you like?

Customer: Five gallons of regular quality, please.

Clerk: Great. That will be $60 plus tax.

Buying paint from an airline ...

Customer: Hi, how much is your paint?

Clerk: Well, Sir that all depends.

Customer: Depends on what?

Clerk: Actually, a lot of things.

Customer: How about giving me an average price?

Clerk: Wow that's too hard a question. The lowest price is $9 a gallon, and we have 150 different prices up to $200 a gallon.

Customer: What's the difference in the paint?

Clerk: Oh, there isn't any difference, it's all the same paint.

Customer: Well, then, I'd like some of that $9 paint.

Clerk: Well, First I need to ask you a few questions. When do you intend to use it?

Customer: I want to paint tomorrow, on my day off.

Clerk: Sir, the paint for tomorrow is $200 paint.

Customer: What? When would I have to paint in order to get $9 paint?

Clerk: That would be in three weeks, but you will also have to agree to start painting before Friday of that week and continue painting until at least Sunday.

Customer: You've got to be kidding!

Clerk: Sir, we don't kid around here. Of course, I'll have to check to see if we have any of that paint available before I can sell it to you.

Customer: What do you mean check to see if you can sell it to me? You have shelves full of that stuff; I can see it right there.

Clerk: Just because you can see it doesn't mean that we have it. It may be the same paint, but we sell only a certain number of gallons on any given weekend. Oh, and by the way, the price just went up to $12.

Customer: You mean the price went up while we were talking?

Clerk: Yes sir. You see, we change prices and rules thousands of times a day, and since you haven't actually walked out of the store with your paint yet, we just decided to change. Unless you want the same thing to happen again, I would suggest you get on with your purchase. How many gallons do you want?

Customer: I don't know exactly ... maybe five gallons. Maybe I should buy six gallons just to make sure I have enough.

Clerk: Oh, no sir, you can't do that. If you buy the paint and then don't use it, you will be liable for penalties and possible confiscation of the paint you already have.

Customer: What?

Clerk: That's right. We can sell you enough paint to do your kitchen, bathroom, hall and north bedroom, but if you stop painting before you do the other bedroom, you will be in violation of our tariffs.

Customer: But what does it matter to you whether I use all of the paint? I already paid you for it!

Clerk: Sir, there's no point in getting upset; that's just the way it is. We make plans based upon the idea that you will use all of the paint, and when you don't, it just causes us all sorts of problems.

Customer: This is crazy! I suppose something terrible will happen if I don't keep painting until Sunday night?

Clerk: Yes sir, it will.

Customer: Well, that does it! I am going somewhere else to buy paint!

Clerk: That won't do you any good, sir. We all have the same rules. You might as well just buy it here, while the price is still $13.50. Thanks for flying - I mean painting - with our airline.

MrFSS--Many thanks for the time and talent you put into this very clever post. I enjoyed it immensely. very well done.

 

[MrFSS]

MrFSS--Many thanks for the time and talent you put into this very clever post. I enjoyed it immensely. very well done.

Thanks, Bill - sometimes the truth can be very funny!!!

 

[AmtrakWPK]

That "If airlines sold paint" is a copyrighted story, which is why I didn't post the whole thing when I posted the link to it several posts back .

 

[jcrt1]

Relaxing travel pace, see the scenery, O.K. Considering Amtrak as a long distance travel choice for the first time, I check Dallas to Los Angeles route for fares about 2 months ago and found a reasonable coach rate of $120 one-way for off peak travel. Checked back a month later and saw a fare of $127 (any future non-peak date), small increase, NO big deal. Today, checking ALL non-peak future fares and seeing nothing below $160. Looks like a 30% increase in the base coach fare in the last 2 months. WHY? Uhm, airlines reducing fares like mad, lowest advance purchase fare now $185 round trip. Uhm, sit upright no sleep for 2 days for almost 4 times the airline fare price. No thank you, I've changed my mind primarily because of the large % increase in the fare.

I don't quite follow the mathmatics here. I am a college grad, but certainly not a math major; however, I can't get the calculations to add up.

Suppose they select the $160 one-way fare. Double that for round trip, and you come up with $320. The airfare is $185. $320 is definitely NOT 4 times $185; 4 times $185 would be a whopping $740!! In fact, $320 is less than twice the $185.

Maybe I'm missing something here in his comments? I'm not trying to be an agitator, but, if you're going to be throwing calculations around, at least make them a little more accurate.

Sorry about the math.

 

[jcrt1]

Relaxing travel pace, see the scenery, O.K. Considering Amtrak as a long distance travel choice for the first time, I check Dallas to Los Angeles route for fares about 2 months ago and found a reasonable coach rate of $120 one-way for off peak travel. Checked back a month later and saw a fare of $127 (any future non-peak date), small increase, NO big deal. Today, checking ALL non-peak future fares and seeing nothing below $160. Looks like a 30% increase in the base coach fare in the last 2 months. WHY? Uhm, airlines reducing fares like mad, lowest advance purchase fare now $185 round trip. Uhm, sit upright no sleep for 2 days for almost 4 times the airline fare price. No thank you, I've changed my mind primarily because of the large % increase in the fare.

Well don't wait too long to book that airplane either, or you might find that it takes a huge jump too. :unsure:

But this is why I always tell people don't wait for discount codes and other things like that. Once you know what you want to do and when, book it. If the price goes down, you can always book that lower price and then cancel your original reservation for no penalty, assuming that you haven't picked up your tickets.

Just as an example, I pulled out the National Timetable. While Dallas to LA is not listed as a pair, Houston to LA is. Coach fares can range from a low of $127 to a high of $249. Coach fares have 4 bucket levels and as the train fills up, the price level rises from one bucket to the next, until it eventually reaches the top level assuming that the train is close to selling out.

This is yield or management pricing and again, everyone in the travel industry practices this type of pricing. Amtrak is not unique in this regard. And considering the immense pressure that Congress and especially the current White House has put on Amtrak to make money, is it any wonder that Amtrak must do this. The Federal Government owns Amtrak, not private investors. You can't buy Amtrak stock on the stock market. So it is the Fed that ultimately set the rules, even if it's only by their actions to not provide enough money to meet Amtrak's yearly budget.

If we the people don't like the way that Amtrak is handling these matters, then we must elect the right people into office in Washington DC to handle Amtrak properly.

I have no issue with the bucket concept. The issue is why Sept. was a more attractive month to purchase than Oct. or Nov.? I researched ALL departure dates through Jan. 8 (and beyond) and except for peak, approx. Nov.15-Dec.4 and Dec.18-Jan.5 when superliner roomettes are at a premium, $120 and a month later $127 was the quote for coach. I am unable to find a Google mention of a general fare increase. Maybe it was a glitch in the webpage reservation data but it is odd that I remember putting in the SENIOR discount and getting back a fare of $100.00. Maybe I'll reconsider.

 

[AlanB]

I have no issue with the bucket concept. The issue is why Sept. was a more attractive month to purchase than Oct. or Nov.? I researched ALL departure dates through Jan. 8 (and beyond) and except for peak, approx. Nov.15-Dec.4 and Dec.18-Jan.5 when superliner roomettes are at a premium, $120 and a month later $127 was the quote for coach. I am unable to find a Google mention of a general fare increase. Maybe it was a glitch in the webpage reservation data but it is odd that I remember putting in the SENIOR discount and getting back a fare of $100.00. Maybe I'll reconsider.

Ah! I'm not sure that I heard about an overall price increase either, although something in the back of my mind suggests that I do remember hearing something about one.

However, one reason that the price might have jumped from September to October is the fact that Amtrak's fiscal year ended on September 30th. So October 1st is the start of the new year for Amtrak, and a logical time to consider a price increase to offset rising costs.

 

[Dinker]

SNCF has an interesting system on their website that nearly everyone in France seems to get. When they show you the prices for various trains, the background color indicates the bucket it's in. If it's blue - you're travelling in 'periode bleu' - which everyone seems to understand means that that's the lowest pricest you pay between those two cities. I think a red background is the highest and the green background is the medium price (might be wrong). Anyway, should anyone care to have a look, it's all on the sncf website. I think if you said to someone in France that your ticket was bought in 'periode bleu' in France, they'd likely understand -

so there you have it, the same, 'ole bucket system made more user-friendly. It's not just for the tyros either: sometimes on Amtrak I wonder if the price I'm being quoted is the lowest possible one. THe only way you can check, so far as I know, is to do a search for the same city pairs but for a date four or five months out. This isn't very efficient.

 

[battalion51]

Well this is just my experience, but I don't think I've ever seen a price go down for a specific date. The only time this really seems at all plausible is if you are in the sleepers and there is a cancellation. I mean I guess it could happen in coach if capacity was expanded, but I've never seen that.

 

[The Metropolitan]

I had it happen once. On my Chicago trip, I saved the reservation for my lady friend until she confirmed she was going. When she did about 2 weeks later, I went back on to purchase the ticket. The system mentioned something about the 'saved itinerary no longer being available at the fare I selected' and stated a new fare was effective. As it turns out, it was nearly $10 cheaper, thanks to a price change in the Capitol Limited segment.

This trip had been booked as an all-coach affair.

 

[Guest]

Allen,

Actually on this trip I checked through this link for the chicago fares from Centralia Il. It showed one way as somewhere around 27.00 each way? Plus an additional charge for business class. However I haven't read all the adittional post, but the one under yours is also right, Amtrak frequently advertised in local papers here with a price. Same thing, when you called them either it was the wrong train they were quoting or seats were sold. But the price was shown. I did see somewhere that prices on the phone might not be as cheap as the ones on the net sometimes.

Larry

Hi I have a bit of a problem with it also. I checked the fare recently for a trip to chicago and the fares were posted by amtrak to be a certian price. When I called in I got the much higher fare quoted for the same reasons. Its a bit of a bait and switch situation. You call because of the resonable price shown in the ad, only to be told the fare is a lot higher due to amount of seats sold. That would be ok if they gave you the highest possible fare in the ad, then lowered the fare it they could due to lower load factor. At least you have some idea what you were getting into. But to show a low fare and then up it is a bit deceptive in my book. Yes others may do it too, but it doesn't make it right.

Larry

Larry,

Where did you check? I've never seen Amtrak put precise prices in any ad, if they do anything they put in a price range.

If you went to Amtrak's online system on the net, the only place that I've ever seen Amtrak give precise prices, then I can only assume that while you took the time to call in to speak with a person, that someone else booked the last seat at that lower price. My recommendation is next time if you see a price that you like, book it right away, don't call Amtrak. The online system is quite secure and easy to use. I've been booking my trips via that system for well over 8 years now I believe without a problem.

 

[Guest]

In theory that sounds good. But I worked in retail for over 40 years. One thing we were always checked for by the goverment was that the item was selling at the price advertised. If not we could have faced a fine.

Using that premise, sort of like the paint story related here, you could go to your local store and they could say well, we advertised the shirts at 25.00, but since we are down to two left yours will be 45.00. How would you feel about that after you made the trip! As I first said, it may be common in the travel industry but is still unfair to people trying to plan a trip. And I have always felt that as tax payers we are already paying once for the service, This business of charging the highest fare possible just doesn't sit well with me. I still have some prices from the days of rail travel when railroads ran it. a first class fare was only a small increase above the regular price. Now it is outrageously higher, and you get about nothing in return. First class has been gone for a long time. Now I hear the lounges are going and there going to combine with the dinner, whats left of it. They tried that once and it was awful, for that you pay a couple thousand for a trip.

Larry

Just because a fare is not available on a certain departure does not mean it isn't available for the majority of departures.
Airlines never advertise their top fares, nor do car dealers advertise the highest price they would charge you for a vehicle.

It's only "bait and switch" when the advertised fare or product is NEVER available at the advertised price.

 

[battalion51]

Larry, the problem with your theory is that in retail you're talking about an item that can be replicated thousands of times. If you run out of t-shirts you make more. However the travel industry is a whole different ballgame because you have a fixed supply (for the most part). So the price the consumer is going to pay is going to depend based on how the quantity demanded is reacting on that particular day.

 

[AlanB]

Larry, the problem with your theory is that in retail you're talking about an item that can be replicated thousands of times. If you run out of t-shirts you make more. However the travel industry is a whole different ballgame because you have a fixed supply (for the most part). So the price the consumer is going to pay is going to depend based on how the quantity demanded is reacting on that particular day.

I think a better way of saying this would be that Amtrak is a service industry, whereas retail is considered a goods industry. Whether it is fair or not is probably a discusion beyond the scope of this board, but the simple reality is that the laws of this country allow service industries to charge whatever the market will bear, while the goods industry has far less flexibility.

However, what Larry is talking about really has nothing to do with goods vs. services, he's talking about advertising something at one price, but charging a different higher price when someone actually shows up to buy it. I'll admit that I'm not entirely sure just what laws might apply to Amtrak in that case, but I suspect that only Federal law would apply, not local state laws. I could be wrong, but I don't actually believe that there is a Federal law that would prohibit Amtrak from doing what's being described.

I also wonder if some leeway may be granted because one doesn't actually have to show up at "the store" to find out that the price isn't what was quoted in the ad. One is booking something in advance and therefore has the time and the chance to actually say "no, that's too much" before schleping down to the store or the train station in this case. Stores that play this kind of game know that once they've got the person in the store, you are more likely to buy something, even if it's not what you came for. Amtrak isn't in that position, yes if you really enjoyed the ride you'll probably be more tempted to buy yet another Amtrak ticket in the future, but the odds are that you're not going to buy yet another future ticket while you are on the train. And prior to cell phones, you couldn't buy a future ticket while onboard the train.

Now I suspect that someone might pop in with "well what about the cafe car?" Yes, Amtrak does stand to make extra money via the cafe car. However, one most likely would have either visited the car or not, regardless of what one payed to ride the train. Some people bring food onboard, other's just head for the cafe car no matter what. So again, not really an issue and perhaps most importantly you are now buying goods, not a service.

But then we also come to the question of what did the ad actually say compared with what was Larry trying to book? And Larry please understand that this is not intended as an attack on you, I'm just trying to get all the pieces to the puzzle here.

First, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a phrase something like "prices as low as" somewhere in the ad. Any type of language like that would immediately let Amtrak off the hook. Secondly, there would seem to be some confusion as to what route was advertised vs. what trip Larry was actually trying to book. Change anything, go one stop further; one stop shorter; book the Illini, when it was an ad for the Saluki; and you've changed the rules. Even a retail store can do this, if things are properly stated. For example, if the ad says green shirts are on sale, the store can still charge more for the same exact shirt in red, blue, or any other color other than green. Heck, if properly stated in the ad, the store can even charge more for the extra-large size vs. the other sizes in green.

 

[Guest]

You know I loved train travel, and still perhaps do. I guess I just don't care for the way the fares are arrived at. Planes, Buses you name it, a fare should be a fare. The price of operating the train is the same if it runs full or empty. They should decide what each passengers share is and thats what every one pays. If your service is good maybe it will run full, but I shouldn't have to pay extra because it is doing well. thats not my fault. I see its not amtraks problem alone, its the whole travel industry. Perhaps if they had the proper support from the goverment they wouldn't be left sticking it to the passengers who are late at booking the same triip someone else paid way less for. This is undoubtedly like Religion or Politics, those who think its a great system will defend it and those that don't, won't!

Ok I will own up to some thing here, I went back into the Amtrak reservation site suggested here and found that the one way fare is indeed 27.00 on two of the trains. The third showed up below the screen and I didn't catch the first time that it was 71.00 one way on it. Thats quite a difference though for the same coach seat as you went up on. But depending on the load, those figures are subject to being raised. I have run into that before.

Larry

Larry, the problem with your theory is that in retail you're talking about an item that can be replicated thousands of times. If you run out of t-shirts you make more. However the travel industry is a whole different ballgame because you have a fixed supply (for the most part). So the price the consumer is going to pay is going to depend based on how the quantity demanded is reacting on that particular day.

 

[AlanB]

You know I loved train travel, and still perhaps do. I guess I just don't care for the way the fares are arrived at. Planes, Buses you name it, a fare should be a fare. The price of operating the train is the same if it runs full or empty. They should decide what each passengers share is and thats what every one pays. If your service is good maybe it will run full, but I shouldn't have to pay extra because it is doing well. thats not my fault. I see its not amtraks problem alone, its the whole travel industry. Perhaps if they had the proper support from the goverment they wouldn't be left sticking it to the passengers who are late at booking the same triip someone else paid way less for. This is undoubtedly like Religion or Politics, those who think its a great system will defend it and those that don't, won't!

The price of operating the train doesn't necessarily remain the same depending on how many ride it on any given day. If the train is full, Amtrak may add an extra waiter in the dining car. A full train needs more cleaning than a half empty train. A full train also needs more fuel to haul the extra weight (not a whole lot I'll admit, but it does need more), and a full train uses more water and also has more sewage to dispose of.

And then there is the whole concept of overhead and capital costs, which I won't go into.

Ok I will own up to some thing here, I went back into the Amtrak reservation site suggested here and found that the one way fare is indeed 27.00 on two of the trains. The third showed up below the screen and I didn't catch the first time that it was 71.00 one way on it. Thats quite a difference though for the same coach seat as you went up on. But depending on the load, those figures are subject to being raised. I have run into that before.

Larry, one question. Is the more expensive train, train #58/59? If so, the reasons behind that would simply be that Amtrak first off wants short distance riders to ride the short distance trains when available, not the long distance train where they could sell the seat to someone going a longer distance. Secondly, the short haul trains are further subsidized by the State of Illinios and they have some say in what price is charged. The long distance train is not subsidized by Illinios and Amtrak must charge more to pay for the costs of operating the train.

 

[Guest 2]

I'm not sure about the Northeast Corridor, which has recently gone to a revenue management system, but I can tell you that Amtrak sells more coach tickets at the lowest published fare than any of the other fares, in most markets.

Since the Michigan trains went to a revenue managed inventory a few years ago, both ridership and revenue have grown emmensely, too. This was accomplished by offering lower and higher fares than had been previously offered.

The lowest fare might not be available on a particular departure that sells out regularly, but it is probably available most other times.

Most things in the world do not have a set price. Houses, apartments, cars, salaries, etc., all fluctuate based on supply and demand.

 

[Dinker]

The price of operating the train is the same if it runs full or empty. Larry

Which is exactly why you want to guarantee yourself some revenue by selling the first seats at a very low price (perhaps at a loss, if calculated on a per seat basis) and then try making a profit on the seats that are sold later, often to last-minute business travellers.