Amtrak and Florida

[TVRM610]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

What I was told, Amtrak perfer Savannah because of overnight parking space is available there not in Jacksonville.

Right, you know forget those three or four very long tracks that you have there in Jacksonville, at least two of which can hold 20 car trainsets. And forget the fact that your T&E crew base is there, which if they start curtailing things the Union will have to be involved. No, no, none of these things are factors.

Again, these tracks are owned by CSX. Up in Savannah, the 2 tracks are owned by Amtrak. That is the main reason Amtrak choosed Savannah.

Are you talking about the Silver Trains or the Palmetto? If you are talking about the Silver Trains then you are incorrect, Amtrak has not chosen to do anything yet.

There is no way that Amtrak is going to stop serving Orlando FL, and the Auto Train Terminal... I thought the newspaper article states that this does not affect service into Orlando, but rather it's the tracks PAST orlando.

I don't care what newspaper says. I know from a valid source and it says no train between Kissimmee to Deland becuase that what its called Pincancle line (sp?) so that what it happens. This doesn't affect Auto Train.

I know what the story is going on. I have been to these many meetings lately and i heard and I am telling you what I was being told.

Thanks

I'm confused... Deland is north of Sanford... which means it would affect the auto train.

 

[AlanB]

Bad taste or not, Florida does need to realize that they cannot alter Amtrak's deal with CSX. They must accept what Amtrak wants and currently has with CSX or Amtrak can sink the entire sale. CSX cannot sell the tracks to Florida if Florida in the process alters the terms and conditions under which Amtrak operates. Federal law is on Amtrak's side.

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?

Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

If train suspensions were to happen, how would Amtrak handle it?

While Amtrak seems to be heading down the road of just stopping service, as I understand things any of the above choices could happen. I believe that Amtrak could run down to court and file papers that would stop the sale in its tracks, pun intended. I don't think so much that they'd come after the fact and have the sale undone, but they most likely could go into Federal court and have them order FDOT to comply with the law that basically says that no sale can alter Amtrak's right of passage and the terms of that passage.

Ps. TransitRider, CSX has little to do with this. It's all Sunrail and FDOT. CSX's only obligation might be to have informed FDOT of the terms of Amtrak's right to passage. But it's not up to CSX to ensure that any sale complies with the law and in fact they have no legal standing to do so.

Alan,

That is incorrect. CSX owns the line and they have the legal right to sell the tracks to FDOT so they can use for SunRail and CSX/FDOT forgot about Amtrak and this is the main reason why Amtrak is threating the state.

CSX will sell the tracks to FDOT for $433 Million and the FDOT approved it after the lawmakers passed the purchase but until Amtrak came in and wants to double check about everything.

This is very sticky issues as well.

As both Jishnu and I have pointed out, Amtrak's right of passage is a Federal law. CSX cannot sell the tracks to someone who will not honor the terms that Amtrak has with CSX.

And CSX isn't getting $433 Million for the sale of the tracks. They are getting $150 million for the sale of the tracks. They are also getting some other "concession" funding like IIRC $23M to help move operations from the current intermodel yard in Orlando to the new one southwest of Orlando, some funding for that new facility including new roads for the trucks. All totaled CSX will see $377 million in state monies because of the deal. But again, the purchase price of the ROW is $150M.

 

[PRR 60]

...As both Jishnu and I have pointed out, Amtrak's right of passage is a Federal law. CSX cannot sell the tracks to someone who will not honor the terms that Amtrak has with CSX.

This is a contract issue, not an issue of Federal law. Amtrak claims that their blanket access and operating agreement with CSXT provides for Amtrak's consent for any sale of tracks by CSXT. Florida DOT has not disputed that claim. From the FDOT side, they claim that Amtrak is being offered the same terms as were accepted when the CSXT tracks in south Florida were purchased by the state for Tri-Rail. Amtrak claims those terms are no longer acceptable. Florida is hoping that the political pressure will result in Amtrak caving. Amtrak is hoping that the political pressure will result in FDOT caving. Gee, I love it when lawyers are fighting.

The bottom line is that the deal offered by the state to CSXT was really, really good. Amtrak saw that deal, and they want a piece of the action. They are using their right to approve any sale of track as the weapon to force the deal. Assuming they are right in their interpretation of the agreement (and I assume they are), and assuming that the state cannot force the issue through the Obama administration and the USDOT (and that could happen), I think Amtrak will huff and puff and get a pretty good deal out of this. Despite the woofing, this is just high-volume negotiations. Amtrak train service in Florida is not really at risk.

 

[jis]

The bottom line is that the deal offered by the state to CSXT was really, really good. Amtrak saw that deal, and they want a piece of the action. They are using their right to approve any sale of track as the weapon to force the deal. Assuming they are right in their interpretation of the agreement (and I assume they are), and assuming that the state cannot force the issue through the Obama administration and the USDOT (and that could happen), I think Amtrak will huff and puff and get a pretty good deal out of this. Despite the woofing, this is just high-volume negotiations. Amtrak train service in Florida is not really at risk.

I completely agree with that assessment. This is exactly how the game is played by the giants. We have observed this sort of brinkmanship over and over again in negotiations among Amtrak, NJT, LIRR and PA involving the NEC and NYP. It is just that we don't happen to do so as much in public limelight as the Floridians seem to like to do.

I also agree that it is a matter of contract law. The mention of Federal was in the context of where the thing would get litigated if it were to come to that, which it most likely won't,unless someone is being really daft, like our friends from Colorado a few months back.

 

[TransitRider]

How do you figure that it doesn't affect Auto Train. Last time I checked Deland is at A750 and Sanford is at A765. So by your own logic the Auto Train is very much affected by this.

That is incorrect. Auto Train has seperate contracts and it runs on its own and not operate under Amtrak rules or anything. It is running seperate business because of congress set the rules for that route.

Amtrak has contract with CSX FOR Silver Trains ONLY. So therefore, SIlver trains WILL be affected. Get it?

 

[TransitRider]

Bad taste or not, Florida does need to realize that they cannot alter Amtrak's deal with CSX. They must accept what Amtrak wants and currently has with CSX or Amtrak can sink the entire sale. CSX cannot sell the tracks to Florida if Florida in the process alters the terms and conditions under which Amtrak operates. Federal law is on Amtrak's side.

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?

Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

If train suspensions were to happen, how would Amtrak handle it?

While Amtrak seems to be heading down the road of just stopping service, as I understand things any of the above choices could happen. I believe that Amtrak could run down to court and file papers that would stop the sale in its tracks, pun intended. I don't think so much that they'd come after the fact and have the sale undone, but they most likely could go into Federal court and have them order FDOT to comply with the law that basically says that no sale can alter Amtrak's right of passage and the terms of that passage.

Ps. TransitRider, CSX has little to do with this. It's all Sunrail and FDOT. CSX's only obligation might be to have informed FDOT of the terms of Amtrak's right to passage. But it's not up to CSX to ensure that any sale complies with the law and in fact they have no legal standing to do so.

Alan,

That is incorrect. CSX owns the line and they have the legal right to sell the tracks to FDOT so they can use for SunRail and CSX/FDOT forgot about Amtrak and this is the main reason why Amtrak is threating the state.

CSX will sell the tracks to FDOT for $433 Million and the FDOT approved it after the lawmakers passed the purchase but until Amtrak came in and wants to double check about everything.

This is very sticky issues as well.

As both Jishnu and I have pointed out, Amtrak's right of passage is a Federal law. CSX cannot sell the tracks to someone who will not honor the terms that Amtrak has with CSX.

And CSX isn't getting $433 Million for the sale of the tracks. They are getting $150 million for the sale of the tracks. They are also getting some other "concession" funding like IIRC $23M to help move operations from the current intermodel yard in Orlando to the new one southwest of Orlando, some funding for that new facility including new roads for the trucks. All totaled CSX will see $377 million in state monies because of the deal. But again, the purchase price of the ROW is $150M.

Alan,

I am sorry, that is incorrect. The price tag is $433 Million. I have a website that says this and I found the line it says :

"Though not part of the bill, the state plans to purchase 61.5 miles of track for $432 million from CSX Corp (CSX.N) for SunRail in the Orlando area." at http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSB71270520091209

Thank you.

 

[AlanB]

And CSX isn't getting $433 Million for the sale of the tracks. They are getting $150 million for the sale of the tracks. They are also getting some other "concession" funding like IIRC $23M to help move operations from the current intermodel yard in Orlando to the new one southwest of Orlando, some funding for that new facility including new roads for the trucks. All totaled CSX will see $377 million in state monies because of the deal. But again, the purchase price of the ROW is $150M.

Alan,

I am sorry, that is incorrect. The price tag is $433 Million. I have a website that says this and I found the line it says :

"Though not part of the bill, the state plans to purchase 61.5 miles of track for $432 million from CSX Corp (CSX.N) for SunRail in the Orlando area." at http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSB71270520091209

Thank you.

Why you would ever trust a newspaper to get things right I don't know, but they are indeed quite wrong.

The project is slated to cost a total of $1.2 million. Of that $440 million will be spent double tracking the A line and improving the signal system. Another $174 million goes to buy the equipment. That number may well have changed due to the delays and the demise of Colorado Railcar. Another $209 million will be spent on building bridges to close 5 grade crossing on the S line. I don't count this as money being given to CSX for its benefit. The beneficiaries are the residents of Florida who live in that area and will no longer have to wait for a freight train to pass.

Yes CSX will save a few bucks by not having to maintain the grade crossing equipment, but again that $209 isn't going to CSX. So already that's $823 million of the $1.2 billion gone, leaving only $377 million and thereby making it impossible for CSX to be getting $433 million.

As I already noted, $23M goes to CSX to help move the current intermodal yard operations to the new site. That plus the $150M purchase price accounts for $173M of that $377M. At the moment I don't recall and cannot find how the remaining $204 is being allocated, but again at least some of it (if not all) is for the new intermodal facility.

Finally if you flip to Adobe page number 14 or document page 6 in this scan of the contract between CSX & FDOT you can see right in section 2 that the price is quite clearly $150 million for the section of the A line that the state is buying from CSX; confirming what I've said above.

With all the delays and aruments going on in Florida there have been so many wrong numbers flying around that probably 3/4ths of those living in Florida probably have no idea just who's getting what anymore. Confusion is unfortunately quite widespread in Florida on this project.

 

[TVRM610]

How do you figure that it doesn't affect Auto Train. Last time I checked Deland is at A750 and Sanford is at A765. So by your own logic the Auto Train is very much affected by this.

That is incorrect. Auto Train has seperate contracts and it runs on its own and not operate under Amtrak rules or anything. It is running seperate business because of congress set the rules for that route.

Amtrak has contract with CSX FOR Silver Trains ONLY. So therefore, SIlver trains WILL be affected. Get it?

No I don't get it. Can someone explain if this is correct?

If Amtrak does not want to run on track because of liability issues they are not going to pick and choose which trains to run, they will either run trains or not. Or so I would think...

 

[TransitRider]

And CSX isn't getting $433 Million for the sale of the tracks. They are getting $150 million for the sale of the tracks. They are also getting some other "concession" funding like IIRC $23M to help move operations from the current intermodel yard in Orlando to the new one southwest of Orlando, some funding for that new facility including new roads for the trucks. All totaled CSX will see $377 million in state monies because of the deal. But again, the purchase price of the ROW is $150M.

Alan,

I am sorry, that is incorrect. The price tag is $433 Million. I have a website that says this and I found the line it says :

"Though not part of the bill, the state plans to purchase 61.5 miles of track for $432 million from CSX Corp (CSX.N) for SunRail in the Orlando area." at http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSB71270520091209

Thank you.

Why you would ever trust a newspaper to get things right I don't know, but they are indeed quite wrong.

The project is slated to cost a total of $1.2 million. Of that $440 million will be spent double tracking the A line and improving the signal system. Another $174 million goes to buy the equipment. That number may well have changed due to the delays and the demise of Colorado Railcar. Another $209 million will be spent on building bridges to close 5 grade crossing on the S line. I don't count this as money being given to CSX for its benefit. The beneficiaries are the residents of Florida who live in that area and will no longer have to wait for a freight train to pass.

Yes CSX will save a few bucks by not having to maintain the grade crossing equipment, but again that $209 isn't going to CSX. So already that's $823 million of the $1.2 billion gone, leaving only $377 million and thereby making it impossible for CSX to be getting $433 million.

As I already noted, $23M goes to CSX to help move the current intermodal yard operations to the new site. That plus the $150M purchase price accounts for $173M of that $377M. At the moment I don't recall and cannot find how the remaining $204 is being allocated, but again at least some of it (if not all) is for the new intermodal facility.

Finally if you flip to Adobe page number 14 or document page 6 in this scan of the contract between CSX & FDOT you can see right in section 2 that the price is quite clearly $150 million for the section of the A line that the state is buying from CSX; confirming what I've said above.

With all the delays and aruments going on in Florida there have been so many wrong numbers flying around that probably 3/4ths of those living in Florida probably have no idea just who's getting what anymore. Confusion is unfortunately quite widespread in Florida on this project.

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

 

[TransitRider]

How do you figure that it doesn't affect Auto Train. Last time I checked Deland is at A750 and Sanford is at A765. So by your own logic the Auto Train is very much affected by this.

That is incorrect. Auto Train has seperate contracts and it runs on its own and not operate under Amtrak rules or anything. It is running seperate business because of congress set the rules for that route.

Amtrak has contract with CSX FOR Silver Trains ONLY. So therefore, SIlver trains WILL be affected. Get it?

No I don't get it. Can someone explain if this is correct?

If Amtrak does not want to run on track because of liability issues they are not going to pick and choose which trains to run, they will either run trains or not. Or so I would think...

My god, you cant read? I am saying Amtrak Auto Train is SEPERATE from all regular Amtrak routes and it has seperate policy and law rules and a seperate contract with CSX and other freight companies.

CLEAR?

 

[Ryan]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

You should learn the difference between primary sources and secondary sources, and which is more reliable. May want to look into some tact while you're at it as well.

My god, you cant read? I am saying Amtrak Auto Train is SEPERATE from all regular Amtrak routes and it has seperate policy and law rules and a seperate contract with CSX and other freight companies.
CLEAR?

You have a source to back that up?

 

[wayman]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

The document Alan linked to (yes, hosted at the Sunrail website, but not a Sunrail document) is the actual "Contract for sale and purchase between State of Florida Department of Transportation and CSX Transportation Inc". In other words, it is the contract which we are all talking about, which governs this entire issue.

How Reuters chooses to report this is irrelevant; they're just a news service and they're not always correct. If you've got a source other than this Reuters article, please share it with us; but I can't imagine what you might have that's more authoritative than the contract cited above.

 

[jis]

I present the mail exchange between Amtrak and FDOT on this matter for the members of the forum. You can view the PDF document here.

There seems to be a general pattern developing wherein private or state agencies that want to start new passenger service try to shovel as much additional liability as possible onto Amtrak and hence indirectly on the federal taxpayers, and hope no one will notice. This gets really interesting when the same parties trying this are also getting funded out of the same federal budget to fund said new service in the first place. And of course the august body that can fix this problem once and for all is sitting with its head firmly up a place where the sun don't shine.

Isn't all this fascinating?

 

[Ryan]

Isn't all this fascinating?

Absolutely!

 

[TVRM610]

How do you figure that it doesn't affect Auto Train. Last time I checked Deland is at A750 and Sanford is at A765. So by your own logic the Auto Train is very much affected by this.

That is incorrect. Auto Train has seperate contracts and it runs on its own and not operate under Amtrak rules or anything. It is running seperate business because of congress set the rules for that route.

Amtrak has contract with CSX FOR Silver Trains ONLY. So therefore, SIlver trains WILL be affected. Get it?

No I don't get it. Can someone explain if this is correct?

If Amtrak does not want to run on track because of liability issues they are not going to pick and choose which trains to run, they will either run trains or not. Or so I would think...

My god, you cant read? I am saying Amtrak Auto Train is SEPERATE from all regular Amtrak routes and it has seperate policy and law rules and a seperate contract with CSX and other freight companies.

CLEAR?

No... it is not clear. You are making a statement that makes no sense to me and are providing no documentation for what you are saying. I'm trying to ask you to please explain what you say and you suggest that I cannot read.

Amtrak operates the Auto Train... therefore the Auto Train operates under Amtrak rules and policies. Yes the Auto Train MAY have a seperate contract with CSX, but Amtraks operation of the Auto Train should not be any different than other Amtrak trains.

Is the Auto Train an Amtrak Train? ( I would think yes but I want to make sure it's not operated by Amtrak but in fact technically owned by another organization).

 

[George Harris]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

The document Alan linked to (yes, hosted at the Sunrail website, but not a Sunrail document) is the actual "Contract for sale and purchase between State of Florida Department of Transportation and CSX Transportation Inc". In other words, it is the contract which we are all talking about, which governs this entire issue.

How Reuters chooses to report this is irrelevant; they're just a news service and they're not always correct. If you've got a source other than this Reuters article, please share it with us; but I can't imagine what you might have that's more authoritative than the contract cited above.

Mr. Transitrider:

Have you ever been involved in or been an observer of any incident or event that was reported in the news?

If so did you notice the discrepancies between the reality and the news reports? If there were none, you haad a very unique experience. Usually the news report is somewhere between about half wrong to completely unrecognisable in their description of the event. If it is on TV, turn off the sound and be skeptical about the pictures. This is particularly true when there is any form of political agenda by any of the participants in the development of the news items, and an absolute certainty if any of the participants or interviewees are politicians.

Alan has quoted the contract documents and correspondence between the parties involved. A very simple rule for acertaining the truth of any situation. Ignore what someone else says about it if you can get firsthand information. In this case, the contract documents are published. Alan has quoted them. If you doubt his word, then read these documents for yoursseolf and use that to form your conclusions.

 

[TransitRider]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

You should learn the difference between primary sources and secondary sources, and which is more reliable. May want to look into some tact while you're at it as well.

My god, you cant read? I am saying Amtrak Auto Train is SEPERATE from all regular Amtrak routes and it has seperate policy and law rules and a seperate contract with CSX and other freight companies.
CLEAR?

You have a source to back that up?

My friend himself works for Amtrak for 19 years and he told me all the information and I personally know him from high school.

Therefore, all information are fact and true.

End of story

 

[TransitRider]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

The document Alan linked to (yes, hosted at the Sunrail website, but not a Sunrail document) is the actual "Contract for sale and purchase between State of Florida Department of Transportation and CSX Transportation Inc". In other words, it is the contract which we are all talking about, which governs this entire issue.

How Reuters chooses to report this is irrelevant; they're just a news service and they're not always correct. If you've got a source other than this Reuters article, please share it with us; but I can't imagine what you might have that's more authoritative than the contract cited above.

I am sorry, I will not follow Sunrail documents. I follow what lawmakers says becuase they are the people who decide to approve or deny any bill. Otherwise, they APPROVED $433 Million for CSX to buy 61 miles of track.

 

[jis]

My friend himself works for Amtrak for 19 years and he told me all the information and I personally know him from high school.
Therefore, all information are fact and true.

End of story

Maybe for you. But for the rest of that just makes it hearsay. Sorry.

 

[TransitRider]

How do you figure that it doesn't affect Auto Train. Last time I checked Deland is at A750 and Sanford is at A765. So by your own logic the Auto Train is very much affected by this.

That is incorrect. Auto Train has seperate contracts and it runs on its own and not operate under Amtrak rules or anything. It is running seperate business because of congress set the rules for that route.

Amtrak has contract with CSX FOR Silver Trains ONLY. So therefore, SIlver trains WILL be affected. Get it?

No I don't get it. Can someone explain if this is correct?

If Amtrak does not want to run on track because of liability issues they are not going to pick and choose which trains to run, they will either run trains or not. Or so I would think...

My god, you cant read? I am saying Amtrak Auto Train is SEPERATE from all regular Amtrak routes and it has seperate policy and law rules and a seperate contract with CSX and other freight companies.

CLEAR?

No... it is not clear. You are making a statement that makes no sense to me and are providing no documentation for what you are saying. I'm trying to ask you to please explain what you say and you suggest that I cannot read.

Amtrak operates the Auto Train... therefore the Auto Train operates under Amtrak rules and policies. Yes the Auto Train MAY have a seperate contract with CSX, but Amtraks operation of the Auto Train should not be any different than other Amtrak trains.

Is the Auto Train an Amtrak Train? ( I would think yes but I want to make sure it's not operated by Amtrak but in fact technically owned by another organization).

As you see, you do not know how Auto Train operates. Remember Amtrak bough the auto train from a private company in 1980s and Congress made a rule that it will be SEPERATE from regular Amtrak routes and ANYONE who wants to ride it MUST have a car/suv/motorcycle to ride it so it's a special train service just for Auto Train.

Amtrak has a seperate contract with CSX for this and it does not affect ANY other routes if it being closed or no longer for service.

Thank you.

 

[TransitRider]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

The document Alan linked to (yes, hosted at the Sunrail website, but not a Sunrail document) is the actual "Contract for sale and purchase between State of Florida Department of Transportation and CSX Transportation Inc". In other words, it is the contract which we are all talking about, which governs this entire issue.

How Reuters chooses to report this is irrelevant; they're just a news service and they're not always correct. If you've got a source other than this Reuters article, please share it with us; but I can't imagine what you might have that's more authoritative than the contract cited above.

Mr. Transitrider:

Have you ever been involved in or been an observer of any incident or event that was reported in the news?

If so did you notice the discrepancies between the reality and the news reports? If there were none, you haad a very unique experience. Usually the news report is somewhere between about half wrong to completely unrecognisable in their description of the event. If it is on TV, turn off the sound and be skeptical about the pictures. This is particularly true when there is any form of political agenda by any of the participants in the development of the news items, and an absolute certainty if any of the participants or interviewees are politicians.

Alan has quoted the contract documents and correspondence between the parties involved. A very simple rule for acertaining the truth of any situation. Ignore what someone else says about it if you can get firsthand information. In this case, the contract documents are published. Alan has quoted them. If you doubt his word, then read these documents for yoursseolf and use that to form your conclusions.

Would that make you think it is important to be involved with news event about this? I do not care what Sunrail documents says. I tend to follow the state because they are the ones who are paying and they make requirements to be met before giving out the funding.

Sunrail documents are their proposed price list as HOW much to run the system, to buy, etc.. Not official and it's up to the lawmakers to decide.

Nothing to go further. Thank you

 

[TransitRider]

My friend himself works for Amtrak for 19 years and he told me all the information and I personally know him from high school.
Therefore, all information are fact and true.

End of story

Maybe for you. But for the rest of that just makes it hearsay. Sorry.

That is your problem

 

[AlanB]

And CSX isn't getting $433 Million for the sale of the tracks. They are getting $150 million for the sale of the tracks. They are also getting some other "concession" funding like IIRC $23M to help move operations from the current intermodel yard in Orlando to the new one southwest of Orlando, some funding for that new facility including new roads for the trucks. All totaled CSX will see $377 million in state monies because of the deal. But again, the purchase price of the ROW is $150M.

Alan,

I am sorry, that is incorrect. The price tag is $433 Million. I have a website that says this and I found the line it says :

"Though not part of the bill, the state plans to purchase 61.5 miles of track for $432 million from CSX Corp (CSX.N) for SunRail in the Orlando area." at http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSB71270520091209

Thank you.

Why you would ever trust a newspaper to get things right I don't know, but they are indeed quite wrong.

The project is slated to cost a total of $1.2 million. Of that $440 million will be spent double tracking the A line and improving the signal system. Another $174 million goes to buy the equipment. That number may well have changed due to the delays and the demise of Colorado Railcar. Another $209 million will be spent on building bridges to close 5 grade crossing on the S line. I don't count this as money being given to CSX for its benefit. The beneficiaries are the residents of Florida who live in that area and will no longer have to wait for a freight train to pass.

Yes CSX will save a few bucks by not having to maintain the grade crossing equipment, but again that $209 isn't going to CSX. So already that's $823 million of the $1.2 billion gone, leaving only $377 million and thereby making it impossible for CSX to be getting $433 million.

As I already noted, $23M goes to CSX to help move the current intermodal yard operations to the new site. That plus the $150M purchase price accounts for $173M of that $377M. At the moment I don't recall and cannot find how the remaining $204 is being allocated, but again at least some of it (if not all) is for the new intermodal facility.

Finally if you flip to Adobe page number 14 or document page 6 in this scan of the contract between CSX & FDOT you can see right in section 2 that the price is quite clearly $150 million for the section of the A line that the state is buying from CSX; confirming what I've said above.

With all the delays and aruments going on in Florida there have been so many wrong numbers flying around that probably 3/4ths of those living in Florida probably have no idea just who's getting what anymore. Confusion is unfortunately quite widespread in Florida on this project.

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

Well your failure to follow Sunrail documents is not my problem.

That doesn't change the fact that it is the official contract, the one just approved by the Florida legislature. And it is indeed true that the purchase price for the tracks is $150M. And if you go to the FDOT site and search for Sunrail, you'll find that many of the links that come up will reference and/or lead you to the Sunrail site because it is the official site for anything concerning Sunrail.

Even if you don't want to believe that official document, you still cannot explain away the fact that there isn't enough money left over to pay the amount claimed in the newspaper article.

 

[jis]

My friend himself works for Amtrak for 19 years and he told me all the information and I personally know him from high school.
Therefore, all information are fact and true.

End of story

Maybe for you. But for the rest of that just makes it hearsay. Sorry.

That is your problem

Not really. I am not trying to convince anyone about the veracity of any set of facts. you are and so far you're not doing too well, to put it mildly. Sorry

 

[AlanB]

I do not follow Sunrail PDF documents. The lawmakers passed and says $433 Million. Period. This is decided by lawmakers NOT CSX, NOT Sunrail, NOT FDOT, NOT Amtrak. Lawmakers decided and its final, it's $433 Million. Period.

The document Alan linked to (yes, hosted at the Sunrail website, but not a Sunrail document) is the actual "Contract for sale and purchase between State of Florida Department of Transportation and CSX Transportation Inc". In other words, it is the contract which we are all talking about, which governs this entire issue.

How Reuters chooses to report this is irrelevant; they're just a news service and they're not always correct. If you've got a source other than this Reuters article, please share it with us; but I can't imagine what you might have that's more authoritative than the contract cited above.

Mr. Transitrider:

Have you ever been involved in or been an observer of any incident or event that was reported in the news?

If so did you notice the discrepancies between the reality and the news reports? If there were none, you haad a very unique experience. Usually the news report is somewhere between about half wrong to completely unrecognisable in their description of the event. If it is on TV, turn off the sound and be skeptical about the pictures. This is particularly true when there is any form of political agenda by any of the participants in the development of the news items, and an absolute certainty if any of the participants or interviewees are politicians.

Alan has quoted the contract documents and correspondence between the parties involved. A very simple rule for acertaining the truth of any situation. Ignore what someone else says about it if you can get firsthand information. In this case, the contract documents are published. Alan has quoted them. If you doubt his word, then read these documents for yoursseolf and use that to form your conclusions.

Would that make you think it is important to be involved with news event about this? I do not care what Sunrail documents says. I tend to follow the state because they are the ones who are paying and they make requirements to be met before giving out the funding.

Sunrail documents are their proposed price list as HOW much to run the system, to buy, etc.. Not official and it's up to the lawmakers to decide.

Nothing to go further. Thank you

May I suggest that you roll down to the bottom of the Sunrail website. Note that the site is run by FDOT. There is no more official source on things than FDOT. The legislature cannot approve contracts that FDOT did not negotiate. In addition to a dozen other reasons why they can't, the most simple is that the Sunshine laws prohibit it.

And let me also say that you had best start learning to treat people with some respect or you're going to find yourself on moderator approval. I don't mind people posting their thoughts and opinions here, and I'll tolerate considerable disrespect to myself because I prefer to err on the side of caution, but I will not tolerate your treating other members with contempt.