Amtrak and Florida

[Greg]

Interesting turn of events happening here in Florida...

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/1440996.html

 

[TampAGS]

Yes, I just noticed this story. It is a very interesting turn of events...

 

Here's the story as reported by the Lakeland Ledger:

http://www.theledger.com/article/20100123/...on-Over-Sunrail

 

 

It makes me wonder how willing the Florida DOT is going to be about working with Amtrak in the future on other projects. Amtrak had been the agency mentioned in the state's proposal to return passenger service along the Florida East Coast rail corridor; and just last week Amtrak had made public their desire to operate Florida's proposed high-speed rail system. That system is looking a lot closer to becoming a reality with President Obama visting Tampa next Thursday (speculation is that he will announce the awarding of federal stimulus money for the project).

 

With Amtrak raising their objections to the Sunrail deal at this stage in the game, I wouldn't be surprised if it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of state officials when it comes to Amtrak.

 

[AlanB]

Bad taste or not, Florida does need to realize that they cannot alter Amtrak's deal with CSX. They must accept what Amtrak wants and currently has with CSX or Amtrak can sink the entire sale. CSX cannot sell the tracks to Florida if Florida in the process alters the terms and conditions under which Amtrak operates. Federal law is on Amtrak's side.

 

[Rail Freak]

Does any of this blend with the Sunset Limited East Deal? Could these two issues be compromized to come up to = HSR & NOL-ORL????

RF

 

[wayman]

Bad taste or not, Florida does need to realize that they cannot alter Amtrak's deal with CSX. They must accept what Amtrak wants and currently has with CSX or Amtrak can sink the entire sale. CSX cannot sell the tracks to Florida if Florida in the process alters the terms and conditions under which Amtrak operates. Federal law is on Amtrak's side.

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?

Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

If train suspensions were to happen, how would Amtrak handle it?

 

[TampAGS]

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?
Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

If train suspensions were to happen, how would Amtrak handle it?

Well, the track in question is a 61-mile stretch from DeLand to Poinciana (several miles south of Kissimmee). That stretch also includes the stations in Winter Park and Orlando, and the AutoTrain station in Sanford.

 

If Amtrak were to suspend services from that area, I suppose it could theoretically mean a return of train service along Florida's S-line, and cities like Ocala and Waldo which have stations but have been limited to Thruway Motorcoach service since the Palmetto's route was curtailed. This would allow Amtrak to reconnect to their current track route in Lakeland. From there, they would be able to proceed as normal to Tampa, Miami, and points in between. And since Lakeland is already a transfer station for Thruway connections, it wouldn't be a big stretch for Thruway service to be used to deliver passengers to the stations along the suspended A-line track.

 

That scenario would bypass entirely the Sunrail section of track and keep to a CSX-owned route.

 

As for the AutoTrain, though... that would be difficult to operate outside of its current Sanford terminus. I'm not sure what they would do in that case.

 

[TransitRider]

Everyone, I want to inform you this is a fact statement, what happens if nothing happens after 30 days, they will discontiune the rail service in entire Central Florida so all the affect areas will have NO rail service at all!

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York until FDOT/CSX/SunRail to agree Amtrak rules.

 

[jis]

FDOT is really looking like a bunch of clueless amateurs in this one I am afraid.

 

[AlanB]

Bad taste or not, Florida does need to realize that they cannot alter Amtrak's deal with CSX. They must accept what Amtrak wants and currently has with CSX or Amtrak can sink the entire sale. CSX cannot sell the tracks to Florida if Florida in the process alters the terms and conditions under which Amtrak operates. Federal law is on Amtrak's side.

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?

Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

If train suspensions were to happen, how would Amtrak handle it?

While Amtrak seems to be heading down the road of just stopping service, as I understand things any of the above choices could happen. I believe that Amtrak could run down to court and file papers that would stop the sale in its tracks, pun intended. I don't think so much that they'd come after the fact and have the sale undone, but they most likely could go into Federal court and have them order FDOT to comply with the law that basically says that no sale can alter Amtrak's right of passage and the terms of that passage.

Ps. TransitRider, CSX has little to do with this. It's all Sunrail and FDOT. CSX's only obligation might be to have informed FDOT of the terms of Amtrak's right to passage. But it's not up to CSX to ensure that any sale complies with the law and in fact they have no legal standing to do so.

 

[wayman]

While Amtrak seems to be heading down the road of just stopping service, as I understand things any of the above choices could happen. I believe that Amtrak could run down to court and file papers that would stop the sale in its tracks, pun intended. I don't think so much that they'd come after the fact and have the sale undone, but they most likely could go into Federal court and have them order FDOT to comply with the law that basically says that no sale can alter Amtrak's right of passage and the terms of that passage.

Seems like the ideal situation -- for both Amtrak's revenue and Amtrak's PR -- would be to run down to Federal court and file papers that would put a temporary injunction on the sale (while not stopping it), insisting that Federal court orders FDOT to comply with the law before allowing the sale to proceed.

But I don't know if such a temporary injuction is an option, or if the only point at which Amtrak can insist the Federal court order FDOT to comply is after the sale has taken place. If Amtrak has the option, I can't see how taking it is disadvantageous for Amtrak -- it seems in every way to be their best move. (Caveat: IANAL.) If the latter -- which would require service suspension -- is the only way to do this, Amtrak is in a very unfortunate position due to no fault of their own ... a situation they're all too familiar with

 

[the_traveler]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

 

[MattW]

Lack of maintenance and cleaning crew is my guess. Savannah hosts the Palmetto consist overnight and so has to have at least a few people on hand to vacuum or do something to it before the next day's run.

 

[battalion51]

I would probably guess that they'd stop it at JAX. You could bring maintenance guys up from Sanford and hire temp cleaners, because it's not likely Savannah could handle two additional trainsets on a nightly basis.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I doubt if anything as drastic as Florida losing all its Amtrak service will happen. There will be some kind of legal manuvering that will allow Amtrak to state its case while continuing running its trains. The lawyers will haggle about it, earn a lot of money in the process, and in the end, Amtrak will continue to run its trains over the commuter rails.

 

[jis]

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?
Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

Sounds to me like it would be CSX that would be breaking a covenant with Amtrak, since from what I understand of the mess, Amtrak needs to give CSX permission to sell the track to anyone if that changes operating conditions imposed on Amtrak. And this is all subject to federal law, not Florida law since it involves interstate commerce. I would be very surprised if CSX would go ahead and doso without Amtrak's permission.

Considering that Amtrak brought this problem to the attention of FDOT several months back, I am left wondering what exactly was FDOT thinking, or did they believe that just because they have one deal with Amtrak down south, the same deal would apply in all cases, without bothering to ask Amtrak about it. The newspaper report sure makes it sound like that, but then who knows how accurate that report is?

 

[TransitRider]

Bad taste or not, Florida does need to realize that they cannot alter Amtrak's deal with CSX. They must accept what Amtrak wants and currently has with CSX or Amtrak can sink the entire sale. CSX cannot sell the tracks to Florida if Florida in the process alters the terms and conditions under which Amtrak operates. Federal law is on Amtrak's side.

If Florida politicians refuse to acknowledge this by the deadline, what happens?

Does the sale get prevented by Amtrak's legal challenge, allowing Amtrak to continue without service suspension?

Or does the sale proceed and eventually get reversed in court, with Amtrak meanwhile suspending service until the legal situation is straightened out?

If train suspensions were to happen, how would Amtrak handle it?

While Amtrak seems to be heading down the road of just stopping service, as I understand things any of the above choices could happen. I believe that Amtrak could run down to court and file papers that would stop the sale in its tracks, pun intended. I don't think so much that they'd come after the fact and have the sale undone, but they most likely could go into Federal court and have them order FDOT to comply with the law that basically says that no sale can alter Amtrak's right of passage and the terms of that passage.

Ps. TransitRider, CSX has little to do with this. It's all Sunrail and FDOT. CSX's only obligation might be to have informed FDOT of the terms of Amtrak's right to passage. But it's not up to CSX to ensure that any sale complies with the law and in fact they have no legal standing to do so.

Alan,

That is incorrect. CSX owns the line and they have the legal right to sell the tracks to FDOT so they can use for SunRail and CSX/FDOT forgot about Amtrak and this is the main reason why Amtrak is threating the state.

CSX will sell the tracks to FDOT for $433 Million and the FDOT approved it after the lawmakers passed the purchase but until Amtrak came in and wants to double check about everything.

This is very sticky issues as well.

 

[TransitRider]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

What I was told, Amtrak perfer Savannah because of overnight parking space is available there not in Jacksonville.

 

[TransitRider]

I would probably guess that they'd stop it at JAX. You could bring maintenance guys up from Sanford and hire temp cleaners, because it's not likely Savannah could handle two additional trainsets on a nightly basis.

That will not happen. Amtrak perfer Savannah. That is all I know at this time.

 

[jis]

Well look at the positive side of things. If the New York - Florida service trains cannot be run to Florida we will have a few free consists to run other service

Just kidding

 

[battalion51]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

What I was told, Amtrak perfer Savannah because of overnight parking space is available there not in Jacksonville.

Right, you know forget those three or four very long tracks that you have there in Jacksonville, at least two of which can hold 20 car trainsets. And forget the fact that your T&E crew base is there, which if they start curtailing things the Union will have to be involved. No, no, none of these things are factors.

 

[TransitRider]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

What I was told, Amtrak perfer Savannah because of overnight parking space is available there not in Jacksonville.

Right, you know forget those three or four very long tracks that you have there in Jacksonville, at least two of which can hold 20 car trainsets. And forget the fact that your T&E crew base is there, which if they start curtailing things the Union will have to be involved. No, no, none of these things are factors.

Again, these tracks are owned by CSX. Up in Savannah, the 2 tracks are owned by Amtrak. That is the main reason Amtrak choosed Savannah.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

*Shrugs*, if service dies it will be for a few days. The old battlewagons that use the trains to get back north when the weather warms up will start shaking their sticks and bellowing their kvetches and their representatives will convene a meeting and agree to their terms unconditionally.

 

[TVRM610]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

What I was told, Amtrak perfer Savannah because of overnight parking space is available there not in Jacksonville.

Right, you know forget those three or four very long tracks that you have there in Jacksonville, at least two of which can hold 20 car trainsets. And forget the fact that your T&E crew base is there, which if they start curtailing things the Union will have to be involved. No, no, none of these things are factors.

Again, these tracks are owned by CSX. Up in Savannah, the 2 tracks are owned by Amtrak. That is the main reason Amtrak choosed Savannah.

Are you talking about the Silver Trains or the Palmetto? If you are talking about the Silver Trains then you are incorrect, Amtrak has not chosen to do anything yet.

There is no way that Amtrak is going to stop serving Orlando FL, and the Auto Train Terminal... I thought the newspaper article states that this does not affect service into Orlando, but rather it's the tracks PAST orlando.

 

[TransitRider]

Then they will have to do bus shuttle to Savannah to contiune the train service up to New York

:huh:

Why to Savannah? :huh: The S-line branches off south of Jacksonville, so why couldn't they bus to there? :huh:

What I was told, Amtrak perfer Savannah because of overnight parking space is available there not in Jacksonville.

Right, you know forget those three or four very long tracks that you have there in Jacksonville, at least two of which can hold 20 car trainsets. And forget the fact that your T&E crew base is there, which if they start curtailing things the Union will have to be involved. No, no, none of these things are factors.

Again, these tracks are owned by CSX. Up in Savannah, the 2 tracks are owned by Amtrak. That is the main reason Amtrak choosed Savannah.

Are you talking about the Silver Trains or the Palmetto? If you are talking about the Silver Trains then you are incorrect, Amtrak has not chosen to do anything yet.

There is no way that Amtrak is going to stop serving Orlando FL, and the Auto Train Terminal... I thought the newspaper article states that this does not affect service into Orlando, but rather it's the tracks PAST orlando.

I don't care what newspaper says. I know from a valid source and it says no train between Kissimmee to Deland becuase that what its called Pincancle line (sp?) so that what it happens. This doesn't affect Auto Train.

I know what the story is going on. I have been to these many meetings lately and i heard and I am telling you what I was being told.

Thanks

 

[battalion51]

How do you figure that it doesn't affect Auto Train. Last time I checked Deland is at A750 and Sanford is at A765. So by your own logic the Auto Train is very much affected by this.