Amtrak Dining and Cafe Service discussion 2024 H1

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I hate flex meals. Flex was introduced to avoid too much contact during the covid crisis. That Flex is still being used today is not acceptable for two reasons:

1. Passengers can opt to eat in their roomettes / rooms if they want to.
2. The cost of roomettes and bedrooms is going up and up.

Amtrak beginning to offer Flex meal service in the dining car on plates and tablecloths with flowers on some routes is a step in the right direction - but not enough - for the above reasons. It would be even better if roomette / bedroom patrons could choose from the cafe menu as well, but still not really acceptable.

Fortunately, I am a leisure traveler. I choose to avoid routes that offer flex meals. If I need to travel on these routes, I fly in coach class. Flying on these routes - not especially known for sightseeing - is a cheaper, faster choice. Thus, Amtrak loses my fare!
 
CHImdw1522 said:
Flex was introduced to avoid too much contact during the covid crisis.
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Actually Flex was introduced well before COVID during the tenure of the infamous Richard Anderson. First called "contemporary dining" with cold entrees, then shifting to "Flexible dining" with reheated airline food, it was intended as a cost saving measure disguised with marketing campaign that made a dubious case that "millenials" somehow preferred zapped airline food they could eat by themselves over regular meals with community seating.

Flex was extended to the western trains as a COVID response at least partly because it allowed less staff (an LSA and a heater-upper) in the close confines of a dining car. However, most of the trains where it was specifically a COVID measure on have now gone back to traditional dining, the poor Eagle and the CONO being exceptions and still on Flex. The other trains retaining Flex currently are the eastern LDs that were on Flex prior to COVID.
 
zephyr17 said:
Actually Flex was introduced well before COVID
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I had pre-cooked food in an Amfleet Dinette when I rode the Broadway Limited in May, 1994. From the May 1, 1994 National Timetable Services listing for that train:

"Dining Car--Tray meal table service. (Full dining car service has been temporarily replaced with tray meal service. We hope to restore full dining service later this year.)"
 
Maglev said:
I had pre-cooked food in an Amfleet Dinette when I rode the Broadway Limited in May, 1994. From the May 1, 1994 National Timetable Services listing for that train:

"Dining Car--Tray meal table service. (Full dining car service has been temporarily replaced with tray meal service. We hope to restore full dining service later this year.)"
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I think that was probably what they ultimately ended up calling Diner Lite. The Cardinal had it, and the Lake Shore after it got its Heritage diners pulled. It wasn't the same as Flex. At least as it was handled on the Lake Shore, it wasn't bad at all and better than Flex.
 
zephyr17 said:
Actually Flex was introduced well before COVID during the tenure of the infamous Richard Anderson. First called "contemporary dining" with cold entrees, then shifting to "Flexible dining" with reheated airline food, it was intended as a cost saving measure disguised with marketing campaign that made a dubious case that "millenials" somehow preferred zapped airline food they could eat by themselves over regular meals with community seating.

Flex was extended to the western trains as a COVID response at least partly because it allowed less staff (an LSA and a heater-upper) in the close confines of a dining car. However, most of the trains where it was specifically a COVID measure on have now gone back to traditional dining, the poor Eagle and the CONO being exceptions and still on Flex. The other trains retaining Flex currently are the eastern LDs that were on Flex prior to COVID.
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The CONO is back to doing cafe food in the SSL for sleeper passengers. No dining car.
 
zephyr17 said:
I think that was probably what they ultimately ended up calling Diner Lite. The Cardinal had it, and the Lake Shore after it got its Heritage diners pulled. It wasn't the same as Flex. At least as it was handled on the Lake Shore, it wasn't bad at all and better than Flex.
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What was functionally different from flex? The big uproar about it, if memory serves, is that the Amfleet II cafe cars were/are limited to convection ovens instead of the grills in diners, so the equipment used was no different than what's in practice today. The menu items are obviously different, but the mode of preparation hasn't changed.

I had the grave misfortune of traveling on the Cardinal at that point in time and the omelet-adjacent product I was served for breakfast was genuinely the worst food I have ever had on any mode of transportation, so I have never been swayed by the arguments that contemporary/flex dining is some new low in Amtrak's history.
 
keelhauled said:
What was functionally different from flex? The big uproar about it, if memory serves, is that the Amfleet II cafe cars were/are limited to convection ovens instead of the grills in diners, so the equipment used was no different than what's in practice today. The menu items are obviously different, but the mode of preparation hasn't changed.
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One of the tricky things about Amtrak dining is how much it changes even within all the different titles they give the different services. The Amfleet II's did have steam tables added to them I believe, so in Diner-Lite mode they could serve everything that wasn't grilled on board (eggs, steaks, some of the fish dishes...) the same way that traditional dining works. Now how meals were actually prepared and served over time probably changed.

I've only had one meal on the Cardinal and that was breakfast in the old Diner-Lite days and it was a version of French Toast that was different than the traditional dining car french toast but quite good.
 
crescent-zephyr said:
What makes flex a "full meal" vs. the Cafe Car?


Waffle House does... and at a good price too! But yes, many chain restaurants are simply re-heating food delivered by Aramark or Sysco. I'm not sure how the "chef-inspired" menu items were prepared on board but the Mahi Mahi and Lamb Shank were the 2 best things I've ever had on a train and that Includes VIA, Pullman Rail Journeys, dinner trains, etc. so the quality can be provided if Amtrak is willing to pay the bill.

I wonder how much that Lamb Shank and Mahi Mahi cost vs. the Flex meal dishes? The sad thing is they may be the same price.
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Aramark doesn’t sell food in the same manner as Sysco - they really are not in the same business. Aramark is an outsourcing company not a food company. They may sell some pre prepared meal products to their customers but they’re very different from Sysco. Sysco is a provider of raw food stuffs and ingredients for restaurants and large kitchens - basically a grocery store for restaurants and the food service industry. An equivalent company to Aramark is Sodexo. An equivalent company to Sysco is Performance. Companies like Aramark would be ordering raw ingredients from companies like Sysco.

I suppose by full meal I mean an entree - a dinner - rather than just a sandwich. A beef or chicken entree and a side.
 
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crescent-zephyr said:
One of the tricky things about Amtrak dining is how much it changes even within all the different titles they give the different services. The Amfleet II's did have steam tables added to them I believe, so in Diner-Lite mode they could serve everything that wasn't grilled on board (eggs, steaks, some of the fish dishes...) the same way that traditional dining works. Now how meals were actually prepared and served over time probably changed.

I've only had one meal on the Cardinal and that was breakfast in the old Diner-Lite days and it was a version of French Toast that was different than the traditional dining car french toast but quite good.
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The Diner Lite version on the Lake Shore that I recall being pretty good used steam tables in an Amfleet dinette. I do not know about how were prepared, but the results were pretty decent meals. It wasn't as good as traditional, but it beat the heck out of Flex.
 
I will add one further thought, a while ago (I may have even posted here about it, I cannot remember), I sat next to a woman on American Airlines in First Class who said that she worked in middle management at LSG SkyChefs (iirc).

She said that she and her husband had recently ridden Amtrak and her first thought was that they were doing meals of the flex variety all wrong.

She said whoever was advising them really gave them bad advice. She said that LSG or GateGourmet or a myriad of other companies could provide pre-plated meals easily reheated with a much better flavor profile and visual appearance than the flex meals offer for probably right around the same price (she added unless the flex meals are so cheap that Amtrak is getting them for almost free).

I asked her why Amtrak didn't already know this and she said she doesn't know for a fact, but she imagines Aramark plays a role in that they are an outsourced services company and not an in-flight caterer.

She said it could have to do with the fact that Amtrak just doesn't have the knowledge on their own, but she doubted that.
 
eackly said:
I will add one further thought, a while ago (I may have even posted here about it, I cannot remember), I sat next to a woman on American Airlines in First Class who said that she worked in middle management at LSG SkyChefs (iirc).

She said that she and her husband had recently ridden Amtrak and her first thought was that they were doing meals of the flex variety all wrong.

She said whoever was advising them really gave them bad advice. She said that LSG or GateGourmet or a myriad of other companies could provide pre-plated meals easily reheated with a much better flavor profile and visual appearance than the flex meals offer for probably right around the same price (she added unless the flex meals are so cheap that Amtrak is getting them for almost free).

I asked her why Amtrak didn't already know this and she said she doesn't know for a fact, but she imagines Aramark plays a role in that they are an outsourced services company and not an in-flight caterer.

She said it could have to do with the fact that Amtrak just doesn't have the knowledge on their own, but she doubted that.
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Interesting…
Maybe something more sinister? Like some little “favors” to the right people?
I certainly hope I’m very wrong on that….
 
eackly said:
She said whoever was advising them really gave them bad advice. She said that LSG or GateGourmet or a myriad of other companies could provide pre-plated meals easily reheated with a much better flavor profile and visual appearance than the flex meals offer for probably right around the same price (she added unless the flex meals are so cheap that Amtrak is getting them for almost free).
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This is the kind of info that needs to bypass management and go to the board and congress critters.
 
eackly said:
She said whoever was advising them really gave them bad advice. She said that LSG or GateGourmet or a myriad of other companies could provide pre-plated meals easily reheated with a much better flavor profile and visual appearance than the flex meals offer for probably right around the same price (she added unless the flex meals are so cheap that Amtrak is getting them for almost free).
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The flexible meals are not cheap. In fact they have a higher food cost per passenger per meal than traditional dining. But the idea is the labor savings makes up for it. This was one thing that led to the restoration of traditional dining on the Silvers. Amtrak admitted that there is a point where the flexible dining food costs overcome the labor savings when you have a lot of sleeper passengers and meal period as the labor costs are relatively flat and the food costs with flexible dining go up incrementally the more meal periods there are.
 
lordsigma said:
The flexible meals are not cheap. In fact they have a higher food cost per passenger per meal than traditional dining. But the idea is the labor savings makes up for it. This was one thing that led to the restoration of traditional dining on the Silvers. Amtrak admitted that there is a point where the flexible dining food costs overcome the labor savings when you have a lot of sleeper passengers and meal period as the labor costs are relatively flat and the food costs with flexible dining go up incrementally the more meal periods there are.
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Again, I am far from an expert, but if my seatmate was accurate in what she said, Amtrak could serve better meals with less employees if they went with an airline in-flight caterer.

She said that any in-flight caterer could provide meals which are pre-plated, visually appealing and taste good only requiring one employee or two if they want faster service.
 
Everything with any management these days, for better or for worse, is weighing metrics and numbers and reports on computer screens. I'm sure with flex vs. traditional decision making it's comparing cost/operating income affect vs. customer satisfaction index affect and trying to improve the former while keeping the latter at an acceptable level. On the Silver Meteor the adverse affect on CSI was probably larger than some of the other trains they went flex on and with the larger amount of meal periods and more people traveling longer distances the cost savings were probably not as good either. The Silver Meteor has a relatively high proportion of long haul passengers among its ridership compared to other eastern trains if you look at RPA's ridership stats. The Crescent has a lot of meal periods but not as many people traveling as long a distance as those on the Meteor. There's a pretty large drop off after Atlanta on the Crescent with far less riding end to end than on the Meteor. Atlanta - New Orleans is the weakest part of the route while Florida on the Silvers is a critical part. Of course the funny thing is a big thing that negatively affects ALL measures of CSI including for food and beverage is poor OTP. A constantly 4 hour delayed train with traditional dining is going to have worse marks for food service than a flex train that's usually on time. And you can see it in the stats FRA publishes. This is one reason why they have to make an "OTP adjustment" for all the CSI scores.
 
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I am of course glad a diner is back on trains 19/20–the CRESCENT from June 1. Even with Flex food this is good news! And of course it should be open to coach riders.

The LAKESHORE LIMITED apparently has been the test platform for the new version of the Flex menu to be served on 19&20, with meals served properly plated and at table. I would love to hear a report on this from a passenger on trains 48/49, the LAKESHORE LIMITED since the table cloths, flowers and plated Flex entrees arrived there.

VIA has long offered near gourmet meals on the OCEAN that are actually brought on board having been cooked at the caterers and heated to serving temperature on-board. These meals are plated on the train and served in the dining room on china with flair! They work because the menu is carefully constructed to offer food that can be reheated in convection ovens without loss of taste. Also veggies are not reheated on the same plate as the entrees. My tour clients from Rail Travel Center were amazed when I told them they had just eaten a pre-cooked meal.

The Viewliner II diners have the convection ovens that VIA uses and that Amtrak does sometimes (when the staff feels like it?). The test will be can Amtrak find Flex entree items that will allow them the same good fortune as VIA? Most restaurants today use many partially prepared meal items–so this is definitely not a new concept.

But Amtrak must also exercise crew discipline. The staffer in the kitchen must not be lazy and use the microwave to save time when convection reheating is called for in the instructions from the commissary. The reheating “recipes” for each menu item must be followed. And the passenger should never again see plastic wrap over his entree.

The crews also MUST NOT continue to lounge in seats intended for passengers.

This behavior haunts not only the CARDINAL, CAPITAL LIMITED and the CRESCENT but is particularly bad on the TEXAS EAGLE–where the crews routinely ban coach passengers from using any of the 18 seats in the lounge end of the Cross Country Grill diner-lounge.

My daughter/son in law encountered that on a trip last fall and other riders have confirmed the "buy your food and leave" mandate for coach riders. Even sleeping car passengers were being strongly urged to eat in their rooms. A “good day” on the EAGLE sees coach passengers allowed to use a max of two tables in the lounge end of the car, but only to immediately eat and then go back to their seats. No lingering/socializing allowed (except for the crew)! The lounge experience is intended for the riders–not the crew. Staff breaks are fine–but at most two tables should suffice.

Amtrak knows how to do decent food service of this type. It’s the model for the generally excellent ACELA First Class food service. Time will tell if the CRESCENT experience echoes the OCEAN or the TEXAS EAGLE. It will be fascinating to see how this evolves.

While I want the chefs back it is possible to prepare and present good Flex meals. And it absolutely is possible to insist that lounge seats be for the use of the passengers and not the "off time" relaxation of the crews.
 

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