AGR Sleeper Reservations Cancellation Policy (Rescinded)

[crescent2]

Travel insurance is a great idea, but I'm not aware of any that reimburses "points," because the insurer doesn't control the reward program. It would be complicated to assign a cash value to a given number of points, since the bucket prices are all over the place and the length of trips varies greatly for the same redemption. But I'm all for it! Or a redeposit fee. Losing all the points? I agree, that stinks!! Also concerns me re my trip next year.

And, I wouldn't want to depend on the odds of getting a "compassionate" agent. I know from recent experience that rewards programs vary greatly even when a death is involved. My husband died in September and I have since phoned to see if his points in several programs could be transferred to me. One reward program transferred the points but with an expiration date of 12/31/12, one transferred them with a reasonable fee, one would transfer them with a huge fee (but fortunately our Hilton timeshare later moved them with no fee), one (Delta Airlines) transferred them and waived their usual fee, and one (Amtrak, according to their website and this forum), would not have transferred them at all; they would have been lost! This involved a spouse's death, so I'm wondering how compassionate they would be for an illness, injury, or death in the family. Not liking this new rule...

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Points and dollars are very different animals, and Amtrak is certainly not alone in the travel industry when it treats them differently.

Amtrak is slowly adjusting all forms of payment, including points, cash, and credit. Maybe you lose 10% or maybe you lose 100%, but in all cases you risk losing something if you're reserving sleeper tickets and that's new. But I suppose even losing hundreds of dollars or tens of thousands of points is still just neutral ho-hum news to some folks.

It's hard for a paid reservation to cost Amtrak anything.

It may cost them as much as 5% if you use a credit card, or even a debit card since Amtrak apparently processes everything as a credit transaction. And if you reversed that charge with a refund it may cost even more. So at least that loss has some connection with reality. But what exactly is costing Amtrak so much that they need to wipe all of your allocated points away entirely? Who else does that? Why can't Amtrak simply take 10% of your points away instead? Or charge you a fee to put them back like the airlines do?

AGR is still an extremely generous program...

Not outside the Northeast it's not. I've had status of some sort of status with four separate airlines but I've never once considered chasing Select or Select Plus because it's basically useless in 90% of the country. Even people who live in Chicago, which is among Amtrak's largest and busiest hubs, have to argue with the staff to get what they're rightfully due.

No, in the past you couldn't call up the 800 number once you were onboard to do an upgrade.

You could absolutely call the reservations desk and buy a whole new ticket, which is the same sort of "upgrade" you sound like you're talking about today. Then you'd get a boarding code for last minute purchases and have the conductor call the reservations desk at the next stop. Nobody would be expecting you to do that, but neither was their any rule against it, at least to my knowledge.

I'm sure if there were a valid, documented hardship such as a medical or bereavement situation, you could call AGR to seek some compassionate discretion by an agent or supervisor. I believe Amtrak takes such issues into account for some paid travel situations as well.

Wait, so we're supposed to verbally describe some official documentation of a hardship to a highly compassionate truth analyzing specialist over the phone who then determines that our needs are genuine based on our description? Sounds like you're just grasping at straws now.

 

[Trogdor]

Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).

 

[AlanB]

No, in the past you couldn't call up the 800 number once you were onboard to do an upgrade.

You could absolutely call the reservations desk and buy a whole new ticket, which is the same sort of "upgrade" you sound like you're talking about today. Then you'd get a boarding code for last minute purchases and have the conductor call the reservations desk at the next stop. Nobody would be expecting you to do that, but neither was their any rule against it, at least to my knowledge.

No, that's not the same thing at all. Not even close!

First, if you were already on board the train, then you couldn't call to do anything at all. Maybe, if you knew that an unstaffed stop was coming up you could have called and made a new reservation and received that code and then played a game with the conductor. But you couldn't do that as of a staffed station, as you'd have needed to obtain real tickets.

Second, we come to your idea of buying a whole new ticket. That is NOT what's happening here. You are upgrading your current reservation with the agent. If you had called from a train to do an upgrade before eTix, you would have thrown away the railfare already paid. The phone agent would have had no way of knowing whether or not the conductor had already lifted your ticket. Therefore the phone agent would have had to setup a new reservation charging you for both the room and railfare, before they could give you the boarding code. This would have left you with a coach seat that you no longer needed, and paying anew for the railfare.

This is not what now happens. With eTicketing the phone agent can preserve the railfare and by taking that reservation and just adding the sleeper to it. And the agent can do that without regard to whether you are at a staffed station waiting to board, an unstaffed station, or actually onboard the train.

That is a huge difference!

Yes, it's a bummer that they can't and won't sell you the room at the low bucket anymore, but then you never got to take advantage of that anyhow, so nothing lost there.

I'm sure if there were a valid, documented hardship such as a medical or bereavement situation, you could call AGR to seek some compassionate discretion by an agent or supervisor. I believe Amtrak takes such issues into account for some paid travel situations as well.

Wait, so we're supposed to verbally describe some official documentation of a hardship to a highly compassionate truth analyzing specialist over the phone who then determines that our needs are genuine based on our description? Sounds like you're just grasping at straws now.

I'm sure that the agent would provide a fax number or require that you email something or mail it.

 

[AlanB]

Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).

Agreed! Or maybe a loss of 5% or 10% of the points as a penalty.

 

[Everydaymatters]

OK so now I'm really concerned. I recently booked a trip with all the points I have. The trip, if I'm able, will be in March. I am one of the elderly described above. After about six or seven weeks, I am still going to physical therapy for my back and I'm depending on the therapy to get me back to the point of being able to pull a suitcase and get up and down the Superliner stairs. So far it's a lot better.

So now if my back gets bad again, or some other health problem comes along, I'll lose all the points I've been saving for a long, long time. On good faith I used only my AGR card for every single purchase I've made. I do have several other credit cards I could have used, some of which have points that are exchangeable for cash.

Some of the points I am using for this trip were paid for with cash.

That's just not right. Not right at all.

Betty

 

[jis]

Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).

Agreed! Or maybe a loss of 5% or 10% of the points as a penalty.

I agree. I think Amtrak has gone a bit overboard on this one, and will eventually regret it.

Frankly, if I have to change plans and cancel an AGR trip within the 15 day interval I will be very very unlikely to call in the cancellation. Amtrak can sell it after they find me a no show if they can. I am hardly responsible for Amtrak's ability to to sell a piece of accommodation or not. I would be much more likely to call in a cancellation if I get most of my points back. With the current scheme there is absolutely zero reason to call in a cancellation within the forfeit period.

In this respect actually Amtrak has just become worse than most airlines. Sorry Anthony, I guess I disagree with you about the generosity specially when it applies to this change.

 

[RRrich]

I just put my AGR card way behind my Ultimate Rewards card in my wallet.

 

[Ispolkom]

I just put my AGR card way behind my Ultimate Rewards card in my wallet.

As long as Ultimate Rewards points can transfer to AGR, I think that the combination of Chase Sapphire Preferred and Chase Freedom is a far more lucrative way of accumulating AGR points than the actual AGR Mastercard. The only reason I haven't canceled my AGR card is the 5% rebate on AGR redemptions.

WRT the new cancellation policy, I'm with jis. If I don't get anything back for canceling, I'm not doing it.

 

[rrdude]

Yes, this does kind of suck for those of us who utilize AGR points, and play the "points game", and abide by not only the spirit but the letter of the law. (AGR's written rules)

However, Amtrak is trying to maximize revenue, we all "get that". But this Draconian policy of "......less then 15 days, and you are hosed........" That's gonna cause so much heartache and headaches, and ill will, I'd just guess (hope) that Amtrak will decide to implement what many posters here have suggested, either a percentage fee, or dollar cost to "Re-deposit" the points.

It behooves Amtrak to do so, so they can, (as I think JIS and others pointed out) then RE-Sell the room, maybe for real money.

I'll pile on this thread: 100% loss of points? Well, I'm not going out of my way to call Amtrak to let them know. 10% penalty, or $100 charge? (say it was a $1,500 to $2,500 "value" trip) My fingers will be burning up the cell phone on-screen keyboard calling Amtrak.

And btw Amtrak, if you are implementing changes to your program, how about a little "honey" with the vinegar? Why not offer the ability to purchase on-board credits with points? (Done before-hand, and the code emailed to you) That way, I could burn off some points (They'd go off of Amtrak's books for accounting) and they would be "redeemed" on board for drinks, merchandise, or anything else Amtrak sells on board)

Let's hope the AGR Insider on FlyerTalk is listening to some of this.....

 

[transit54]

While I can understand Amtrak's position here, I don't like the policy. A cancelation penalty? No problem, I can buy into that. Even a cash cancelation fee would be fine with me. What I don't like is that if I had to cancel a trip for circumstances beyond my control, I'm screwed. If travel insurance was an option, I really wouldn't mind. But the reality is there's no way to ensure myself against uncontrollable situations, and that's what I don't like. Just give me an option to protect myself.

I have had to cancel an AGR reservation on short notice before - I was going to leave for a multi-day trip the day that the remnants of Hurricane Irene struck Vermont. I received a call the morning of that one of my employeer's facilities had flooded and I needed to come in. While they have been very generous in reimbursing me for canceled personal travel in the past, there's simply no way that they'd pay the cash cost of several days of sleeper travel for me. I think a 25% or 50% loss of points is reasonable. Or just be like the airlines and charge a $100 cancel fee or something to that extent.

 

[rtabern]

Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).

Agreed!!!

My feelings are... whoever at AGR or Amtrak who wrote the new policy.... needs to be more specific about this change. My question is --- and I haven't seen this explained in the new policy very clearly yet is --- What if I booked a 2-zone roomette from Chicago to New York on the Cardinal for 20K points. And then, a few days out (less than 15 days)... a bedroom opens up. Can I call AGR and "upgrade" to the bedroom for an additional 20K points?? OR, with it being less than 15 days out -- would I have to just lose the 20K points for the roomette and spend 40K points on the bedroom?

Likewise, if I was only able to book a bedroom for 40K points (but really wanted just a roomette but none was available)... would I be allowed to "downgrade" and get my 20K points back... if a roomette opened up within the 15 days? By the way, this just happened to me when it came to the Cardinal. I wanted to travel on #50(11/10) CHI-WAS, but there was only a bedroom open at the time of booking on October 8th. Then, yesterday, I noticed a roomette opened... so I called back and moved from the bedroom to roomette... and got 20K points back. I don't think there is anything wrong with this or I should be penalizied.

Again, it seems like one of those Amtrak and AGR rules that isn't very thought about and leaves a little of wiggle room for interpretation by whoever you happen to get on the phone.

 

[pennyk]

OK so now I'm really concerned. I recently booked a trip with all the points I have. The trip, if I'm able, will be in March. I am one of the elderly described above. After about six or seven weeks, I am still going to physical therapy for my back and I'm depending on the therapy to get me back to the point of being able to pull a suitcase and get up and down the Superliner stairs. So far it's a lot better.

So now if my back gets bad again, or some other health problem comes along, I'll lose all the points I've been saving for a long, long time. On good faith I used only my AGR card for every single purchase I've made. I do have several other credit cards I could have used, some of which have points that are exchangeable for cash.

Some of the points I am using for this trip were paid for with cash.

That's just not right. Not right at all.

Betty

Betty, I am right with you. I recently redeemed a majority of my points to travel cross country in April. Some of my points were purchased also. I would hate to lose all of my points if something came up at the last minute that would prevent me from traveling.

 

[crescent2]

I'm an easy going person, but I'm getting more worried (and steamed!) about this. I would be ok with a $100 or even $150 change fee, but to lose 25,000 AGR points because of an emergency, illness, bad weather, etc. is ridiculous! I usually purchase travel insurance, but insurance cannot return reward points, because it does not own any points. The AGR redemption represents the most expensive part of my trip.

What can we do to get Amtrak to reconsider this policy? If all forum members wrote (politely, of course) to Amtrak, would that get their attention? Who is the person with the decision making power on this?

 

[VentureForth]

Don't know if we would write Amtrak or AGR.

This is horrible.

I say, if you're going to lose ALL your points by cancelling within 15 days, DON'T. Just be a no-show. See how many of those until they figure out they're not going to resell cancelled AGR trips.

 

[crescent2]

Does anyone have the name and location of the Amtrak or AGR person with decision making power on this? I want to write a letter. This policy stinks and is certainly not the industry standard.

 

[TimePeace]

Don't know if we would write Amtrak or AGR.

This is horrible.

I say, if you're going to lose ALL your points by cancelling within 15 days, DON'T. Just be a no-show. See how many of those until they figure out they're not going to resell cancelled AGR trips.

Yeah that will fix em.

Meanwhile, all those of you who are throwing away your AGR cards and declaring the value of points to be dead, pm me and I'll buy your points...

 

[crescent2]

It's not my intention to "get even" with Amtrak by letting them have an empty unresold sleeper. Revenge would not help me, and I'm not a vengeful person by nature. (Although I would not cancel until the last minute under the new policy, not from revenge, but on the very slim chance that circumstances might somehow change so that I could make the trip after all.) I want to protect my points by trying to convince them to have a less restrictive policy, such as a redeposit or reservation change fee similar to the airlines' programs.

I don't live near an area that has Amtrak service to any place except the Crescent's route. It is not easy for me to accumulate 25,000 points and I'll never be able to accumulate that many again. Like many others, I don't want to risk totally losing them due to circumstances beyond my control. The new policy is too harsh, and AGR and Amtrak need to be told that.

 

[gatelouse]

I just put my AGR card way behind my Ultimate Rewards card in my wallet.

Right there with you. My UR points, originally intended for transfer to AGR, will be going to UA or Hyatt if the sleeper cancellation policy isn't adjusted. I do hope AGR comes to its senses on this one.

 

[RRrich]

Amtrak states that if I cancel an ARG trip within 15 days I lose my points even thought I am hospitalized. What if Amtrak cancels my AGR trip fo some silly reason like Hurrican Sandy?

 

[Railroad Bill]

I would agree with Betty and Penny on their points made here.

We have had to cancel trips made with points because of my health issues or because a snowstorm has made it impossible to drive to Cleveland to catch a train there, or a vehicle breakdown, etc.

There definitely needs to be a policy change that would allow one to pay a penalty fee or a % deposit of the points so that the entire 15,000-25,000, etc points would not be lost. Some of us would not be able to travel much on Amtrak without using points.

It seems as though the increase in bedroom and coach points, new cancellation policies, baggage requirements, e ticketing, etc have all been implemented without much input from their customers. Those of us who live in the hinterlands would like some consideration. :angry:

 

[AlanB]

I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards. I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.

And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards.

Having a strongly negative view about something is not the same thing as panicking. If you think we're somehow misinterpreting Amtrak's intended meaning then by all means please enlighten us as to where we strayed from their actual policy. If we have the policy right then maybe you just need to accept that not everyone is going to see it as the same way you do.

I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.

So you want us to wait and see if AGR "clarifies" an already perfectly clear situation by implementing a policy that is unlikely to be revealed in public? How exactly is a secret solution supposed to clarify anything? Speaking of which, whose questions about life and death emergencies are you even responding to? Most of the concerns I've read seem to refer to typical ailments and other routine complications, not some sudden near death event that would presumably leave the loss of AGR points as the least of anyone's worries. I guess that's when Amtrak's secret solution is finally ready to help. When someone almost dies you get to keep your points. Maybe. Yeah, thanks for that.

And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.

Again, whose questions are you even responding to with these random answers?

 

[AlanB]

I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards.

Having a strongly negative view about something is not the same thing as panicking. If you think we're somehow misinterpreting Amtrak's intended meaning then by all means please enlighten us as to where we strayed from their actual policy. If we have the policy right then maybe you just need to accept that not everyone is going to see it as the same way you do.

No, putting away or hiding your card is panicking IMHO. Sorry if you don't like that or don't agree with that. Considering to not transfer points into AGR is IMHO, panicking. The new policy has only been announced and it is not yet in effect. People from Amtrak do read this forum. People from Amtrak do read and participate over at the Flyertalk forum. And I'm not talking about conductors or LSA and the like who thankfully do come here to participate in the forum and convey their knowledge. I'm talking about management level people, both mid & high level people.

I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.

So you want us to wait and see if AGR "clarifies" an already perfectly clear situation by implementing a policy that is unlikely to be revealed in public? How exactly is a secret solution supposed to clarify anything?

I meant that they may well not list the actual reasons for which they'd grant an exception to the rule, but that they might well make a statement that they will consider hardship situations. As already noted by Anthony, Amtrak does do that even now with paid reservation penalties. There is no list however of exactly what reasons might get the penalty waived.

Speaking of which, whose questions about life and death emergencies are you even responding to? Most of the concerns I've read seem to refer to typical ailments and other routine complications, not some sudden near death event that would presumably leave the loss of AGR points as the least of anyone's worries. I guess that's when Amtrak's secret solution is finally ready to help. When someone almost dies you get to keep your points. Maybe. Yeah, thanks for that.

Your sarcasm is not appreciated at all! I was simply urging people to take a deep breath; I was not suggesting that they shouldn't be upset. I'm not thrilled with these changes either.

And both Betty and June mentioned health issues, which is why I responded to that point!

And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.

Again, whose questions are you even responding to with these random answers?

Maybe you want to try reading!

Amtrak states that if I cancel an ARG trip within 15 days I lose my points even thought I am hospitalized. What if Amtrak cancels my AGR trip fo some silly reason like Hurrican Sandy?

 

[Anderson]

And in the department of unintended consequences, if I can't get my points back (or exchange reservations), guess what? I'm just going to no-show. Why? Because at some point, I'm not going to be charitable, I'm going to be irritated. Note that if there were a way for me to transfer the reservation to someone else, I'd still do that; I'd also be willing to cancel if there were a partial refund available. But for a total non-refund? To hell with that. I'd also note that Amtrak is seriously burning up passenger good will here...this probably also marks the last time I bother to correct anything Amtrak errs on in my favor (such as those un-requested upgrade cards), at least with respect to AGR.

The odd thing here is that I wouldn't have an issue if they'd eased the point cost of a sleeper reservation upwards over the course of a few years (maybe doubling it over the course of 3-4 years with a series of staged increases). The effective value of points is really a bit on the high side compared to most programs out there (4-6 cents per point being fairly standard), resulting in rather absurd value feedback on some offers. Even going to a straight points/dollar value conversion at $.02/point outside of rule busters or something in that vein wouldn't really be the end of the world (and it would allow them to cram down a decent liability sitting on their books). Likewise, either a "point return fee" or a partial point penalty wouldn't be horrible, either.

Of course, you know what I'm /actually/ going to do now? Make my reservations with cash (or eVouchers) and then swap to AGR at the last minute and take a voucher back. I take the train enough that it's worthwhile to do so (I'll burn the voucher sooner or later, especially with the Norfolk loop I'll be able to run), and why jeopardize my points?

=========================

Moreover, I definitely want to see a clarification on this with respect to Amtrak-initiated cancellations and other "hiccups" (i.e. cancelled trains, missed connections that make the reserved accommodation unavailable, etc.). I know I'm not the only one who has been stuck with "mixed" trips of one kind or another (either with multiple reservations because of booking headaches or with part AGR and part paid reservations), but this just seems ripe for headaches to break out where Amtrak screws up one leg of a trip and it derails a vacation but they won't refund the "unattached" leg even if there was no way to attach the odd leg (i.e. mixed reservations). I would consider it a given (or a class-action suit waiting to happen) if they don't refund legs they axe, but that doesn't mean there aren't other legs that can be screwed up.

Edit: I posted an irritated note on Amtrak's Facebook page (hint: I posted on Facebook. That says something right there.). Honestly, it would probably be worth at least as much putting a post drive up there as writing to management; the page has close to 275,000 likes. (Hint two: I'm advocating using Facebook for something. This is...it's not a first, but it's respectably close)