ACES service

[The_Rockaway_Kid]

Sorry for the double post. That's from Train Dispatcher 3 I assume? What territory is that?

 

[AlanB]

Sorry for the double post. That's from Train Dispatcher 3 I assume? What territory is that?

Yup. Actually it might have even been created in 2, can't be sure now as I've had it a while. The territory is NECNYTR.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

They don't to my knowledge generally reverse on one of the express tracks, but they do have to cross over them. And that means danger signals and all the resulting downline unfavorable signals to approaching trains.

I certainly get the impression there is enough separation in the time domain under the current service frequencies, though. If Amtrak is running one each of northbound and southbound for one each of Acela Express, Northeast Regional, and Keystone each hour, that's six trains, some of which need to stop at Trenton anyway. Throw in a long distance train, and maybe that gets up to seven Amtrak trains an hour through there.

The weekday morning peak R3 to Trenton seems to have three peak direction trips an hour and two off peak direction trips an hour.

Even if none of the Amtrak trains can be coordinated to meet other Amtrak trains in the opposite direction near Trenton, that would still seem to allow each train to have its own six minute window with the center express tracks at Trenton to itself. Maybe a bit less than that if NJT needs to cross the express tracks at different times than SEPTA.

I'm sure a flyover or two would be nice, but it's not striking me as necessary unless someone was planning to run more trains after the track capacity was expanded by building the flyover.

When PRR ran local trains along this route, was it possible to ride an all local stop train all the way from Philadelphia to Manhattan without changing trains? And how compatible is the SEPTA equipment with the NJT equipment? It seems like through running equipment would be cheaper than building flyovers if the equipment turned out to be interchangeable enough. (Does NJT multilevel equipment fit through the Philadelphia commuter tunnel?)

 

[jis]

When PRR ran local trains along this route, was it possible to ride an all local stop train all the way from Philadelphia to Manhattan without changing trains? And how compatible is the SEPTA equipment with the NJT equipment? It seems like through running equipment would be cheaper than building flyovers if the equipment turned out to be interchangeable enough. (Does NJT multilevel equipment fit through the Philadelphia commuter tunnel?)

Operationally the demand on SEPTA trains works out to more or less four cars worth between TRE and PHL per your average hour, whereas a typical NJT train between NYP and TRE runs with 10 cars, most of which of course empty out by PJC. So if one runs through trains one would be running around with 6 empty cars from TRE to PHL for no reason, just putting miles on those cars. BTW, this demand imbalance is not a recent problem. It has been there for a long long time.

This could be done effectively by parting and joining train segments at Trenton, but current NJT will have none of it. That is even more usable at Summit between Dover and Gladstone trains, but NJT refuses to have any of it there either.

Also NJT really does not have a whole lot of equipment to spare at present to be running them over to Philly.

 

[AlanB]

They don't to my knowledge generally reverse on one of the express tracks, but they do have to cross over them. And that means danger signals and all the resulting downline unfavorable signals to approaching trains.

I certainly get the impression there is enough separation in the time domain under the current service frequencies, though. If Amtrak is running one each of northbound and southbound for one each of Acela Express, Northeast Regional, and Keystone each hour, that's six trains, some of which need to stop at Trenton anyway. Throw in a long distance train, and maybe that gets up to seven Amtrak trains an hour through there.

The weekday morning peak R3 to Trenton seems to have three peak direction trips an hour and two off peak direction trips an hour.

Even if none of the Amtrak trains can be coordinated to meet other Amtrak trains in the opposite direction near Trenton, that would still seem to allow each train to have its own six minute window with the center express tracks at Trenton to itself. Maybe a bit less than that if NJT needs to cross the express tracks at different times than SEPTA.

I'm sure a flyover or two would be nice, but it's not striking me as necessary unless someone was planning to run more trains after the track capacity was expanded by building the flyover.

Now throw in 6 or 7 NJT trains going eastbound during rush hour, most of which will come out of the yard in Morrisville, which will bring them through the Morris interlocking on the above diagram. Then add 6 or 7 NJT trains going west from TRE to the Morrisville yard and your window starts to evaporate pretty quickly. And that's the express track window, it's even worse on the local tracks.

I also think that you're not fully appreciating the idea that crossing a train across the corridor could literally be dropping signals from a clear aspect down to a more restrictive signal perhaps 5 miles or more away from the TRE station. Remember that Acela or a Regional could be rolling along at 125 MPH in this general area. That means that one has got to start slowing those trains several miles away from TRE, otherwise they won't be able to stop in time if something goes wrong with SEPTA crossing the corridor. This further reduces your six minute window, even before one plugs in the NJT issue that I mentioned.

Then throw into the mix, the fact that all too often, one train is off its schedule. Just consider that one NJT westbound train is 5 minutes late getting into TRE. It now can't leave the platform at TRE because a SEPTA train is being crossed over the corridor ahead of it. Now NJT is 10 minutes late clearing that platform. Amtrak's got a regional that it can't get off the express track and onto the local track for its station stop, because NJT is in the way. That stopped Regional is now impacting an Acela Express and on and on it goes.

Or you’ve got an Acela that’s running down 5 minutes. The dispatcher may be faced with a choice of, further delaying the Acela to complete the SEPTA crossover, or blowing the Acela through while holding SEPTA. And of course now SEPTA’s not only late, but out of place, perhaps stopping an NJT train from doing what it needs to do. And things just snowball from there.

 

[jis]

It is true that before Morrisville Yard went online TRE used to be an absolute nightmare for dispatchers, because not only did they have to cross SEPTAs across the corridor but they had to cross each and every NJT across the corridor there too. With the advent of Morrisville TRE has become quite manageable given current traffic levels even though arguably the Morrisville connections are from the wrong tracks. Things will remain manageable as long as SEPTA or Amtrak do not increase train frequencies too much.

But with growing traffic there will come a time when a crossover flyover in the area between Fair and Ham would make a lot of sense. But the time has not arrived yet.

With such a flyover, SEPTA trains would arrive at the normal eastbound platform and after unloading would proceed eastbound to use the flyover to get crossed over to storage tracks on the westbound side between Fair and Ham. Then they will be able to proceed from the yard to the regular westbound platform, possibly following an arriving westbound NJT train. Such a mode of operation will make the whole corridor flow much smoother around TRE.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

But with growing traffic there will come a time when a crossover flyover in the area between Fair and Ham would make a lot of sense. But the time has not arrived yet.
With such a flyover, SEPTA trains would arrive at the normal eastbound platform and after unloading would proceed eastbound to use the flyover to get crossed over to storage tracks on the westbound side between Fair and Ham. Then they will be able to proceed from the yard to the regular westbound platform, possibly following an arriving westbound NJT train. Such a mode of operation will make the whole corridor flow much smoother around TRE.

Are you saying there's a pre-existing yard east of Trenton that would be used? If so, how does one find it on Google Maps?

(I'd thought I'd looked last night and concluded that there was no storage yard between Trenton and the first NJT station to the east of Trenton.)

Also, when NYPSE is finished, is that likely to have any effect on the number of corridor trains NJT runs?

We were discussing this in the chat last night, and some of the other things I mentioned there were that I'd noticed yesterday that NJT service is vastly more frequent than SEPTA, and the NJT trains seem to all run half local, half express, so from Trenton to NYP, the express trains include not only Amtrak but also NJT.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I also think that you're not fully appreciating the idea that crossing a train across the corridor could literally be dropping signals from a clear aspect down to a more restrictive signal perhaps 5 miles or more away from the TRE station. Remember that Acela or a Regional could be rolling along at 125 MPH in this general area. That means that one has got to start slowing those trains several miles away from TRE, otherwise they won't be able to stop in time if something goes wrong with SEPTA crossing the corridor. This further reduces your six minute window, even before one plugs in the NJT issue that I mentioned.

At 120 miles an hour, those five miles will be covered in about 2.5 minutes.

I might be failing to appreciate how important those 2.5 minutes are, though.

 

[jis]

Are you saying there's a pre-existing yard east of Trenton that would be used? If so, how does one find it on Google Maps?

There used to be a yard, which is just empty space now. It would be trivial to put in a storage track or two there.

Also, when NYPSE is finished, is that likely to have any effect on the number of corridor trains NJT runs?

Not to Trenton. Not too much at least. Specially if MOM is built via Midway, then some express capacity will be taken by MOM trains, which will not come to Trenton. Also middle zone trains are likely to increase more than outer zone trains since that is where the maximum overcrowding is at present.

We were discussing this in the chat last night, and some of the other things I mentioned there were that I'd noticed yesterday that NJT service is vastly more frequent than SEPTA, and the NJT trains seem to all run half local, half express, so from Trenton to NYP, the express trains include not only Amtrak but also NJT.

Yes.. They usually make stops at Hamilton, PJC and then express through to NWK or EWR in pattern 1, and in pattern 2 they make all stops to MET and then express to NWK or EWR. Pattern 3 are the all stops trains.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

There used to be a yard, which is just empty space now. It would be trivial to put in a storage track or two there.

Is one or two tracks enough? It seems to me that you want space to turn around a trainset or two that are running mid-day service, or are running during peak times and are being used for both peak direction and reverse peak trips, plus enough space to store all the trainsets that are only run in the peak direction. I guess one or two tracks might be enough if they are several trainsets long, though.

Also, when NYPSE is finished, is that likely to have any effect on the number of corridor trains NJT runs?

Not to Trenton. Not too much at least. Specially if MOM is built via Midway, then some express capacity will be taken by MOM trains, which will not come to Trenton. Also middle zone trains are likely to increase more than outer zone trains since that is where the maximum overcrowding is at present.

Does this talk of middle zone trains imply a potential need for something like the Morrisville yard somewhere along the NEC between Trenton and NYP for NEC locals that don't get all the way out to Trenton, potentially with its own flyover?

 

[AlanB]

There's already some room for SEPTA to store trains at TRE; in fact as we went by on Saturday, SEPTA had one of the few AEM-7's sitting there with a push-pull consist, as well as an MU set. And that was in addition to a SEPTA train in operation at the platform.

But it's not like SEPTA has a need to park a lot of trains there. Remember that this line probably provides more service out of Center City Philly during the morning rush hour, than into CC. They don't need a lot of trains to be sitting in the yard at TRE ready to head into CC in the morning. They're already rushing trains out of CC to make the connection in TRE to NJT. Those trains just turn around to provide what inbound to CC service is needed.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

In looking at the current SEPTA morning schedule, it appears to me that the inbound trains that depart Trenton at 6:37, 7:04, 7:16, 8:01, and 8:53 AM need trainsets that have been stored overnight at Trenton, if we assume that a train scheduled to arrive at Trenton 10 minutes earlier can be turned around, and anything closer than that needs a new trainset. Even with tighter timing, you probably would only save about one trainset stored overnight.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

There's already some room for SEPTA to store trains at TRE; in fact as we went by on Saturday, SEPTA had one of the few AEM-7's sitting there with a push-pull consist, as well as an MU set. And that was in addition to a SEPTA train in operation at the platform.

What form does that space take? Is it just the extra track north of the northernmost platform track and the extra track south of the southernmost platform track that the satelite pictures in Google Maps suggest exist?

 

[AlanB]

In looking at the current SEPTA morning schedule, it appears to me that the inbound trains that depart Trenton at 6:37, 7:04, 7:16, 8:01, and 8:53 AM need trainsets that have been stored overnight at Trenton, if we assume that a train scheduled to arrive at Trenton 10 minutes earlier can be turned around, and anything closer than that needs a new trainset. Even with tighter timing, you probably would only save about one trainset stored overnight.

While I certainly won't swear to it, as I've never stood there and watched, but I'd think that they only need 4 trains parked over night. My guess is that those trains would be 6:37, 7:04, 7:16, and the 8:17. All other westbound departures should be covered by arriving eastbound trains. I would assume 5 minutes at most for turning. Perhaps, the arriving 7:57 might turn as the 8:17, rather than the 8:01 like I think it does.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

One other thought regarding crew changes is that Wayne Junction might provide a good point to relocate the majority of crew changes to. It apparently has two island platforms, just like the busy downtown stations, but the Wikipedia article seems to indicate that it will be getting another platform, and the lack of R6 service there further reduces the demand on those platforms; the Swampoodle Connection would probably remove one more line from Wayne Junction if it ever happens.

Furthermore, if R6 crew changes were done at 30th Street Station, there are two inbound platforms and two outbound platforms used only by the four north side Penn, which makes that real estate less valuable than the platforms at Suburban Station.

 

[AlanB]

There's already some room for SEPTA to store trains at TRE; in fact as we went by on Saturday, SEPTA had one of the few AEM-7's sitting there with a push-pull consist, as well as an MU set. And that was in addition to a SEPTA train in operation at the platform.

What form does that space take? Is it just the extra track north of the northernmost platform track and the extra track south of the southernmost platform track that the satelite pictures in Google Maps suggest exist?

Don't know that I've ever seen SEPTA trains on the southern side, NJT yet, but not SEPTA. However, if you go here using MSN Live and pick the birds eye view, you'll see a couple of SEPTA trains sitting on the northern track.

 

[AlanB]

One other thought regarding crew changes is that Wayne Junction might provide a good point to relocate the majority of crew changes to. It apparently has two island platforms, just like the busy downtown stations, but the Wikipedia article seems to indicate that it will be getting another platform, and the lack of R6 service there further reduces the demand on those platforms; the Swampoodle Connection would probably remove one more line from Wayne Junction if it ever happens.
Furthermore, if R6 crew changes were done at 30th Street Station, there are two inbound platforms and two outbound platforms used only by the four north side Penn, which makes that real estate less valuable than the platforms at Suburban Station.

Suburban has 6 tracks and there are some trains that terminate/originate there. Plus since it used to be the end of the line for the Pennsy side, no doubt they have crew facilities there, that plus the fact that it's in the middle is no doubt why it's the crew change point. If SEPTA was having problems and experiencing delays, then no doubt they'd consider moving it, but since it's not a problem there is no point in moving things.

Amtrak will never run through the CCC, as there is no major advantage to doing so.

 

[jis]

Suburban has 6 tracks and there are some trains that terminate/originate there. Plus since it used to be the end of the line for the Pennsy side, no doubt they have crew facilities there, that plus the fact that it's in the middle is no doubt why it's the crew change point. If SEPTA was having problems and experiencing delays, then no doubt they'd consider moving it, but since it's not a problem there is no point in moving things.
Amtrak will never run through the CCC, as there is no major advantage to doing so.

Heh, but that is all the more reason for a bunch of railfans to discuss it ad infinitum. That is the first law of railfanning

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Suburban has 6 tracks and there are some trains that terminate/originate there. Plus since it used to be the end of the line for the Pennsy side, no doubt they have crew facilities there, that plus the fact that it's in the middle is no doubt why it's the crew change point.

If the middle is a good place for a crew change point, then why am I thinking BOS is an Amtrak crew base?

Also, I thought Suburban Station had four platform tracks that connected through in both directions, plus four more platform tracks that only connect to 30th Street Station.

 

[AlanB]

Suburban has 6 tracks and there are some trains that terminate/originate there. Plus since it used to be the end of the line for the Pennsy side, no doubt they have crew facilities there, that plus the fact that it's in the middle is no doubt why it's the crew change point.

If the middle is a good place for a crew change point, then why am I thinking BOS is an Amtrak crew base?

No comparison.

 

[wayman]

This could be done effectively by parting and joining train segments at Trenton, but current NJT will have none of it. That is even more usable at Summit between Dover and Gladstone trains, but NJT refuses to have any of it there either.

Not really analogous to the Trenton situation--which is far more complex!--but the PRR used to split off segments on the R3-West Chester (now R3-Media/Elwyn). Typical heavy load was about 10 cars between Philadelphia and Media and only about 4 beyond to West Chester; mid-day probably had shorter trains for both. There was an active yard at Media where the extra cars were dropped and added. With EMUs, there was a ton of flexibility in the system.

Though one of my favorite railroad photos (having gone to Swarthmore College) is of a GG1 pulling a rake of coaches across the Swarthmore trestle over Crum Creek! That must have been the pre-cursor to one of the AEM-7 express R3s (sadly, the R3ME no longer has no named trains unlike a few other SEPTA lines, since it's a lot shorter; I'm envious of the R5PT's Great Valley Flyer!)

The PRR probably did this sort of thing on other Philadelphia commuter lines as well (cutting capacity for the most distant, lower-traffic section by dropping cars at a mid-point station with a small yard). But I suspect the NEC was always a different beast, since it's a "Philadelphia commuter line" on the south end and a "New York commuter line" on the north end with a stretch in the middle where capacity naturally drops off before it picks up again.

So as I said, the situation at Media (and any other now-SEPTA lines that had join/splitting) was far, far, far simpler than any switching at Trenton would be!

 

[jis]

The PRR probably did this sort of thing on other Philadelphia commuter lines as well (cutting capacity for the most distant, lower-traffic section by dropping cars at a mid-point station with a small yard). But I suspect the NEC was always a different beast, since it's a "Philadelphia commuter line" on the south end and a "New York commuter line" on the north end with a stretch in the middle where capacity naturally drops off before it picks up again.
So as I said, the situation at Media (and any other now-SEPTA lines that had join/splitting) was far, far, far simpler than any switching at Trenton would be!

Actually on weekends and off peak, it would be surprisingly similar to Media ..... 10 cars from New York to Trenton and then at most 4 cars from Trenton to Philly. That is the typical ratio between NJT trains to Trenton and then SEPTA trains to Philly from there. SEPTA usually uses 3 car sets.

 

[wayman]

The PRR probably did this sort of thing on other Philadelphia commuter lines as well (cutting capacity for the most distant, lower-traffic section by dropping cars at a mid-point station with a small yard). But I suspect the NEC was always a different beast, since it's a "Philadelphia commuter line" on the south end and a "New York commuter line" on the north end with a stretch in the middle where capacity naturally drops off before it picks up again.
So as I said, the situation at Media (and any other now-SEPTA lines that had join/splitting) was far, far, far simpler than any switching at Trenton would be!

Actually on weekends and off peak, it would be surprisingly similar to Media ..... 10 cars from New York to Trenton and then at most 4 cars from Trenton to Philly. That is the typical ratio between NJT trains to Trenton and then SEPTA trains to Philly from there. SEPTA usually uses 3 car sets.

Well, that's sort of true if you view the NEC between NYP and PHL as purely "a New York City commuter line that extends to Philadelphia", analogous to viewing the Montclair/Boonton line as "a New York City commuter line that extends to Hackettstown". While some New Yorkers may in fact have this sort of worldview, there are others who see the NEC between NYP and PHL as being both "a New York City commuter line extending to Philadelphia" and "a Philadelphia commuter line extending to New York" The R7 gets emptier as you get further away from Philadelphia; the NJT gets emptier as you get further away from New York City; so a more analogous model would be one where the R7 sheds some cars northbound at, say, Cornwell Heights, and the NJT sheds some cars southbound at, say, Princeton Junction. But that's too complicated to be practical when track use is at such a premium and every second counts.

 

[jis]

Well, that's sort of true if you view the NEC between NYP and PHL as purely "a New York City commuter line that extends to Philadelphia", analogous to viewing the Montclair/Boonton line as "a New York City commuter line that extends to Hackettstown". While some New Yorkers may in fact have this sort of worldview, there are others who see the NEC between NYP and PHL as being both "a New York City commuter line extending to Philadelphia" and "a Philadelphia commuter line extending to New York" The R7 gets emptier as you get further away from Philadelphia; the NJT gets emptier as you get further away from New York City; so a more analogous model would be one where the R7 sheds some cars northbound at, say, Cornwell Heights, and the NJT sheds some cars southbound at, say, Princeton Junction. But that's too complicated to be practical when track use is at such a premium and every second counts.

So operationally you do then agree with me that it makes sense to use Trenton as the point where the number of cars is changed.

 

[gaspeamtrak]

I read in the paper today that the 3 casinos in Atlantic City declared bankruptcy yesterday!??? I this true and will it affect the new service that just started??? :unsure: