ACES service

[AlanB]

Yes it was.
But just think about the oddity of that statement for a moment and what it means for the placement of the motorman/engineer. ........ ....... ........ .......

........... ................ ...............

This is the only line in the US that I know of where the engineer sits on the fireman's side of the train to operate it.

True, but isnt this so there can only be one operator and he can see the platform and know when to close the doors and get the train rolling? At least thats what I read about it.

I'm actually not sure if that was the entire reason or not, but it definately does allow Patco to run OPTO.

 

[wayman]

Rafi, are you aware of any non-trespassing spots with a view of the North Philly "partial wye"? I know where there are great spots to watch the ZOO wye (well, it's nearly a partial wye too, now) but not North Philly.

Shoot, I should be the one asking YOU that question!

I'll play with Google Maps, see if I can turn up any promising potential viewing spots, and then investigate in person to see if there are in fact good (or any) views open to the public. Sounds fun

After two hours of playing with Google Maps, Microsoft Live, Photoshop, and Graphic Converter, here's an accurate track diagram



I'm assuming ACES comes south, turning towards the west, stopping on one of the main lines somewhere near the interlocking tower (brown square). Then it reverses, passing through as many switches as necessary (depending on what track it started on) to reach the NJT tracks, and continues on across the Delair Bridge to Atlantic City. But this has the disadvantage of tying up at least one, and possibly several, NEC tracks for a good ten minutes. One would hope ACES is on the outside track (nearest NJT) to minimize this disruption of the NEC, but who knows.

It might be possible for ACES to switch onto the NS, go through the yard underneath NJT, back up onto the NJT tracks, and pull forward again to AC. This would probably require stopping briefly on the main just to the north of this diagram (already being on the east-most red NEC track), just long enough to switch from electric power (leading engine) to diesel power (trailing engine, controlled by "cab car" electric engine), before proceeding into and through the NS yard. Then I imagine the engineer has to walk the train to the diesel to pull the train up onto the NJT and walk the train again to the electric (functioning as a cab car towards AC), which makes this somewhat awkward since he has to switch ends twice. Also, this routing requires the NS's permission.

So my guess is that they'll reverse the train using the first method, not the second.

The grey blump at the corner of Sedgley and Frankford Avenues is a parking lot with a good overview of the tracks. It may be an ok place to take photos from; I'll check it out sometime soon. All the roads have underpasses, but there may be some vantage points from Sedgley or Glenwood.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Rafi, are you aware of any non-trespassing spots with a view of the North Philly "partial wye"? I know where there are great spots to watch the ZOO wye (well, it's nearly a partial wye too, now) but not North Philly.

What makes a wye a partial wye?

 

[amamba]

I am looking forward to hearing from you all about the trip - especially if first class is worth it. If it will be a fun trip I will be willing to pay extra $$ for first class. I might just take the first acela in the morning from Boston into NYP, which means that I would be in great shape to catch the first ACES of the day (2:30ish) even if there were some delays.

 

[AlanB]

I'm assuming ACES comes south, turning towards the west, stopping on one of the main lines somewhere near the interlocking tower (brown square). Then it reverses, passing through as many switches as necessary (depending on what track it started on) to reach the NJT tracks, and continues on across the Delair Bridge to Atlantic City. But this has the disadvantage of tying up at least one, and possibly several, NEC tracks for a good ten minutes. One would hope ACES is on the outside track (nearest NJT) to minimize this disruption of the NEC, but who knows.

They are using this method, although they won't be stopping on one of the 4 mainline tracks. They'll pull off onto one of the siding tracks to reverse ends.

 

[wayman]

Rafi, are you aware of any non-trespassing spots with a view of the North Philly "partial wye"? I know where there are great spots to watch the ZOO wye (well, it's nearly a partial wye too, now) but not North Philly.

What makes a wye a partial wye?

ZOO used to be a complete wye with tracks connecting PHL-NYC (downtown Philadelphia via ZOO through North Philadelphia onto the NEC to NYP), HAR-PHL (the Keystone/R5 from points west directly into downtown Philadelphia), and NYC-HAR (NYP down the NEC to North Philadelphia and on via ZOO straight to Harrisburg and Chicago--the original Broadway Limited). In ZOO's heyday, there were several parallel tracks in each of the three directions, and North Philadelphia was not just a major PRR station but in fact the only Philadelphia station for many of the PRR NYC-to-Chicago trains. By bypassing downtown, they saved time and the need to do the direction-change at PHL that Amtrak's Pennsylvanian and the Keystones have to do. During the '60s or '70s, the NYP-HAR tracks were ripped up as they were simply no longer needed. Trains like the Broadway Limited no longer carried prestige, "16 hours New York to Chicago" was but a memory, and North Philadelphia station was in an increasingly sketchy part of the city. Simpler to just consolidate operations at 30th St. There's one track still connecting that part of the wye, but it's seldom used.

In the case of the Delair connection to New Jersey, the North Philadelphia to NYP line is the old PRR mainline, and the North Philadelphia to Atlantic City line branches off from it, but there's no easy mainline connection from New York City to Atlantic City--it's simply never been built. I suspect if ACES is a success it will be.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

In the case of the Delair connection to New Jersey, the North Philadelphia to NYP line is the old PRR mainline, and the North Philadelphia to Atlantic City line branches off from it, but there's no easy mainline connection from New York City to Atlantic City--it's simply never been built. I suspect if ACES is a success it will be.

Is that like how if the Keystone Corridor were successful they'd build a track near North Philadephia so that the old PRR mainline to NYP could connect to the east end of the Commuter Tunnel without any need to back up?

(I'm not entirely sure that there's track capacity through the Commuter Tunnel for the Keystone Corridor Amtrak trains. Also, connecting the east end of the Commuter Tunnel to the tracks towards Harrisburg would probably also be sufficient to eliminate the need for the Keystone trains to reverse direction. The bigger problem may be land availability near North Philadelphia)

I'm also reminded of how the original plan for the paired SEPTA routes envisioned a seemingly fairly trivial connecting track that was never built, I think also somewhere near North Philadelphia, to balance the east side of the Commuter Tunnel better with the west side.

 

[wayman]

In the case of the Delair connection to New Jersey, the North Philadelphia to NYP line is the old PRR mainline, and the North Philadelphia to Atlantic City line branches off from it, but there's no easy mainline connection from New York City to Atlantic City--it's simply never been built. I suspect if ACES is a success it will be.

Is that like how if the Keystone Corridor were successful they'd build a track near North Philadephia so that the old PRR mainline to NYP could connect to the east end of the Commuter Tunnel without any need to back up?

(I'm not entirely sure that there's track capacity through the Commuter Tunnel for the Keystone Corridor Amtrak trains. Also, connecting the east end of the Commuter Tunnel to the tracks towards Harrisburg would probably also be sufficient to eliminate the need for the Keystone trains to reverse direction. The bigger problem may be land availability near North Philadelphia)

I'm also reminded of how the original plan for the paired SEPTA routes envisioned a seemingly fairly trivial connecting track that was never built, I think also somewhere near North Philadelphia, to balance the east side of the Commuter Tunnel better with the west side.

I think you're right that track capacity doesn't exist through the tunnel, which is itself enough to keep this from happening.

But also, such a connection would put the Keystones on the SEPTA platforms at 30th St rather than the Amtrak platforms, something I'm sure Amtrak would never want to do.

In the case of adding the third leg to the Delair wye, the track would basically be built on a bridge across the Norfolk Southern yard. I suspect that's a fairly easy real estate arrangement, certainly much easier than knocking down houses or digging a tunnel would be.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I think you're right that track capacity doesn't exist through the tunnel, which is itself enough to keep this from happening.

Actually, at this point I'm really not convinced that there's a lack of capacity through the Commuter Tunnel. Doesn't it have four tracks, and shouldn't each track be able to handle about a train every three minutes? Skimming the schedules suggests that SEPTA Regional Rail doesn't run trains anywhere near every three minutes times four tracks.

But also, such a connection would put the Keystones on the SEPTA platforms at 30th St rather than the Amtrak platforms, something I'm sure Amtrak would never want to do.

Why not? They share platforms with commuter rail at just about every other station in the country that has both commuter rail and Amtrak service.

In the case of adding the third leg to the Delair wye, the track would basically be built on a bridge across the Norfolk Southern yard. I suspect that's a fairly easy real estate arrangement, certainly much easier than knocking down houses or digging a tunnel would be.

But it looks to me like if you choose a 500 foot radius curve, there's a warehouse that might be in the way.

The Swampoodle Connection still strikes me as the thing that should most clearly be built that hasn't been.

 

[wayman]

But also, such a connection would put the Keystones on the SEPTA platforms at 30th St rather than the Amtrak platforms, something I'm sure Amtrak would never want to do.

Why not? They share platforms with commuter rail at just about every other station in the country that has both commuter rail and Amtrak service.

Yes, but few other stations in the country were ever initially built like 30th St, with such a clean separation between commuter rail and long-distance rail. And now that each are run by separate companies, keeping them separated makes everyone's life easier. The moment someone asks a SEPTA agent anything about New York or Lancaster, the passenger is directed down the ramp to Amtrak information; the moment someone asks an Amtrak agent anything about a local destination, the passenger is directed up the ramp to SEPTA information. Works great! Except for when passengers ask anyone anything about New Jersey Transit ("we're not New Jersey Transit; try that ticket vending box over there, but it can't answer questions") or ask the open-ended "how do I get to New York?" with a completely clueless helpless "I've never been to New York" look in their eyes.

It would be nice if there were simple "how to get to New York" brochures or posters, basically saying

Amtrak: ~100 minutes, fares from $43 one-way, departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from main station hall, no transfer necessary, arrives at New York Penn StationSEPTA/NJT: ~160 minutes, adult fare $20.50 one-way ($8 SEPTA, $12.50 NJT), departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from SEPTA concourse, transfer to a second train at Trenton, arrives at New York Penn Station

But nobody would want to distribute it in their part of the station. Amtrak would say "it will lose us business, because people will see that SEPTA/NJT is much cheaper", and SEPTA would say "it will lose us business, because people will see that Amtrak is both faster and transfer-free".

And of course, you could add

MegaBus: ~120 minutes, fares range from $1-15 by advance internet reservation only at megabus.com, 8 departures per day, departs from 30th & JFK (SW corner), no transfer necessary, arrives at New York Penn StationBoltBus: ~120 minutes, fares range from $1-15 by advance internet reservation only at boltbus.com, 14 departures per day, departs from 30th St btw Market & Chestnut, no transfer necessary, arrives at New York Penn Station

... if your goal was to present all the options within the immediate area, though these two wouldn't help anyone needing to get to New York right now (unless they had mobile internet).

Huh, maybe I should put together a "how to get to NYC from Philadelphia" page, which could start with useful information about the logical ways like these, and then the ways from Center City (Hound, Peter Pan, Chinatown), and then the really nutty ways....

 

[AlanB]

I think you're right that track capacity doesn't exist through the tunnel, which is itself enough to keep this from happening.

Actually, at this point I'm really not convinced that there's a lack of capacity through the Commuter Tunnel. Doesn't it have four tracks, and shouldn't each track be able to handle about a train every three minutes? Skimming the schedules suggests that SEPTA Regional Rail doesn't run trains anywhere near every three minutes times four tracks.

You've obviously never stood on a platform at Suburban Station or the Market East station during rush hour. Each platform has a location A & B for each track. It's not uncomon to see a train at the A location and the B location on the same track at the same time during rush hour. Especially at Suburban, where crew changes occur on all trains.

But also, such a connection would put the Keystones on the SEPTA platforms at 30th St rather than the Amtrak platforms, something I'm sure Amtrak would never want to do.

Why not? They share platforms with commuter rail at just about every other station in the country that has both commuter rail and Amtrak service.

Because 30th Street is a split level station, SEPTA is on an upper level no where near the Amtrak ticket windows or anything else to do with Amtrak. It requires a walk down a hall and up an incline to reach the SEPTA section of the terminal. It's not like the T sharing a stop with Amtrak. In fact the closest that the T would come to this scenario is the Fairmont line where it crosses over the NEC at Readville and joins the Franklin line. However the distances involved are longer.

And short of the direction change, which is now much simpler with cab cars and electric motors, there is no real advantage for Amtrak to even consider the expense of building a connection in North Philly just to avoid the reverse move. Especially since the majority of the passengers on a Keystone train to/from NYP, aren't going to Center City. They are headed for points west. Amtrak and the State of PA are trying to speed up the Keystone runs, that's why they spent millions on the Keystone corridor. They don't want to slow down the Keystones now by running them through CC.

If the demmand is ever there to speed things up even more, then restore the connections at Zoo and just avoid 30th Street all together.

The Swampoodle Connection still strikes me as the thing that should most clearly be built that hasn't been.

Swampoodle still makes sense for SEPTA, but not for Amtrak and the Keystones.

 

[jackal]

P.S. ARGH... That took me off of the lucky 777 post!!

Screenshot duly emailed to you...glad I got it when I did!

 

[jis]

In the case of the Delair connection to New Jersey, the North Philadelphia to NYP line is the old PRR mainline, and the North Philadelphia to Atlantic City line branches off from it, but there's no easy mainline connection from New York City to Atlantic City--it's simply never been built. I suspect if ACES is a success it will be.

The third leg of the Shore Y is very very unlikely to be built in my lifetime or yours. There simply is not enough traffic to Atlantic City from New York even in the most optimistic of projections to justify it, when zillion other more worthy projects are going abegging.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

There simply is not enough traffic to Atlantic City from New York even in the most optimistic of projections to justify it, when zillion other more worthy projects are going abegging.

But the relative merits of various projects may not be an issue if the casinos saw value in their train having better track, and don't care about (for example) SEPTA's efficiency.

Then again, there's still the question of whether the casinos think they can collect tens if not hundreds of millions in gambling profits as a sole result of making the Gambler's Express 10 minutes faster and having it not awkwardly switching direction. And I kinda suspect that the value just isn't there for the casinos.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

You've obviously never stood on a platform at Suburban Station or the Market East station during rush hour. Each platform has a location A & B for each track. It's not uncomon to see a train at the A location and the B location on the same track at the same time during rush hour. Especially at Suburban, where crew changes occur on all trains.

Maybe if they did crew changes on less expensive real estate, they'd have capacity to run some or all Amtrak trains through the Commuter Tunnel. This seems like the sort of thing where if you told an accountant how much it would cost to move the crew change points to the terminals of the lines, and how much Commuter Tunnel capital cost is wasted by saving money on labor costs for crew changes, would probably get changed very quickly if SEPTA had any interest in running more trains.

Plus, it sounds like those crew changes create unnecessary delays for passengers trying to get between some of the downtown stations and the lines on one side of the system.

And short of the direction change, which is now much simpler with cab cars and electric motors, there is no real advantage for Amtrak to even consider the expense of building a connection in North Philly just to avoid the reverse move. Especially since the majority of the passengers on a Keystone train to/from NYP, aren't going to Center City. They are headed for points west. Amtrak and the State of PA are trying to speed up the Keystone runs, that's why they spent millions on the Keystone corridor. They don't want to slow down the Keystones now by running them through CC.

Would the Commuter Tunnel really be any slower than the current direction reversal?

I'm also starting to think that if there was a desire to feed trains from New Jersey into the Commuter Tunnel, the right way to do so may be to run them along the R3 West Trenton ROW starting just south of Woodbourne Station. There appears to be existing track from Trenton to that point near Woodbourne; that connecting track would need to be electrified, and the R3 West Trenton line might need a third track in places, and there'd probably be a need to negotiate with a freight railroad and maybe even build some more track, but that looks more viable to me than adding a 90 degree turn with a reasonable radius near North Philadelphia.

The Swampoodle Connection still strikes me as the thing that should most clearly be built that hasn't been.

Swampoodle still makes sense for SEPTA, but not for Amtrak and the Keystones.

Swampoodle would get a SEPTA line off the Amtrak mainline. Maybe that doesn't matter to Amtrak if they give SEPTA the lowest priority for access to those tracks, though.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Amtrak: ~100 minutes, fares from $43 one-way, departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from main station hall, no transfer necessary, arrives at New York Penn StationSEPTA/NJT: ~160 minutes, adult fare $20.50 one-way ($8 SEPTA, $12.50 NJT), departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from SEPTA concourse, transfer to a second train at Trenton, arrives at New York Penn Station

But with Amtrak you still need to explain Keystone vs Northeast Regional vs Acela Express, and doesn't PATCO to Riverline end up being a cheaper way to get to Trenton than SEPTA Regional Rail?

Also, couldn't you take NJTACL to Atlantic City and catch the Gambler's Express to Penn Station? (I'm not sure there'd be any good reason to ever, but it should work on days the Gambler's Express runs, right?)

 

[AlanB]

You've obviously never stood on a platform at Suburban Station or the Market East station during rush hour. Each platform has a location A & B for each track. It's not uncomon to see a train at the A location and the B location on the same track at the same time during rush hour. Especially at Suburban, where crew changes occur on all trains.

Maybe if they did crew changes on less expensive real estate, they'd have capacity to run some or all Amtrak trains through the Commuter Tunnel. This seems like the sort of thing where if you told an accountant how much it would cost to move the crew change points to the terminals of the lines, and how much Commuter Tunnel capital cost is wasted by saving money on labor costs for crew changes, would probably get changed very quickly if SEPTA had any interest in running more trains.

Plus, it sounds like those crew changes create unnecessary delays for passengers trying to get between some of the downtown stations and the lines on one side of the system.

Great lets increase the number of crew bases from one to eleven (one for each line's terminous) and the resulting expenses.

Next, even without crew changes, like I said it's not uncommon to find two trains on the same plat on the same track at Market East where there is no crew change.

Finally, Amtrak doesn't want to run through the tunnel and has no reason to do so. I know that you're big on having a one seat ride to anywhere in the world, but the demmand vs the cost and other issues simply doesn't warrant Amtrak running the Keystones through the CCC.

And short of the direction change, which is now much simpler with cab cars and electric motors, there is no real advantage for Amtrak to even consider the expense of building a connection in North Philly just to avoid the reverse move. Especially since the majority of the passengers on a Keystone train to/from NYP, aren't going to Center City. They are headed for points west. Amtrak and the State of PA are trying to speed up the Keystone runs, that's why they spent millions on the Keystone corridor. They don't want to slow down the Keystones now by running them through CC.

Would the Commuter Tunnel really be any slower than the current direction reversal?

It's at least as slow as the current direction reversal, which can be done in 10 minutes and probably less if Amtrak wasn't building in recovery time. Remember that you're now replacing one stop with three. That alone is going to add several minutes of running time, and then throw in navigating the connector.

I'm also starting to think that if there was a desire to feed trains from New Jersey into the Commuter Tunnel, the right way to do so may be to run them along the R3 West Trenton ROW starting just south of Woodbourne Station. There appears to be existing track from Trenton to that point near Woodbourne; that connecting track would need to be electrified, and the R3 West Trenton line might need a third track in places, and there'd probably be a need to negotiate with a freight railroad and maybe even build some more track, but that looks more viable to me than adding a 90 degree turn with a reasonable radius near North Philadelphia.

My understanding is that the R3 was recently reduced from two tracks to one track by the host RR, so there would not seem to be any capacity for such a move. And once again, the minimal benefit doesn't outweight the costs. Passengers riding the Keystones from NY aren't by and large going to CC, they are headed for the corridor west of Philly.

The Swampoodle Connection still strikes me as the thing that should most clearly be built that hasn't been.

Swampoodle still makes sense for SEPTA, but not for Amtrak and the Keystones.

Swampoodle would get a SEPTA line off the Amtrak mainline. Maybe that doesn't matter to Amtrak if they give SEPTA the lowest priority for access to those tracks, though.

I don't think that Amtrak is that worried about getting SEPTA off the corridor. What Swampoodle however does do for Amtrak is it stops the need to cross the outbound R8 over the 4 track mainline, effectively shutting down the corridor for a few minutes.

Amtrak would also probably love to have a flyover at or near Trenton to cross over the R7 line there.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak: ~100 minutes, fares from $43 one-way, departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from main station hall, no transfer necessary, arrives at New York Penn StationSEPTA/NJT: ~160 minutes, adult fare $20.50 one-way ($8 SEPTA, $12.50 NJT), departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from SEPTA concourse, transfer to a second train at Trenton, arrives at New York Penn Station

But with Amtrak you still need to explain Keystone vs Northeast Regional vs Acela Express, and doesn't PATCO to Riverline end up being a cheaper way to get to Trenton than SEPTA Regional Rail?

Cheaper, yes. But add still more commute time, especially since one must first get from 30th Street Station to the Market East station to board PATCO. The River Line alone is almost an hour of run time.

Also, couldn't you take NJTACL to Atlantic City and catch the Gambler's Express to Penn Station? (I'm not sure there'd be any good reason to ever, but it should work on days the Gambler's Express runs, right?)

You could, but that wouldn't be all that much cheaper than anything on Amtrak, except for Acela, and you've just added two hours to your commuter time by comparison to Amtrak, with a four hour run time basically.

 

[wayman]

Amtrak: ~100 minutes, fares from $43 one-way, departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from main station hall, no transfer necessary, arrives at New York Penn StationSEPTA/NJT: ~160 minutes, adult fare $20.50 one-way ($8 SEPTA, $12.50 NJT), departures every 60 minutes (approx 5:00 am to midnight), departs from SEPTA concourse, transfer to a second train at Trenton, arrives at New York Penn Station

But with Amtrak you still need to explain Keystone vs Northeast Regional vs Acela Express, and doesn't PATCO to Riverline end up being a cheaper way to get to Trenton than SEPTA Regional Rail?

Also, couldn't you take NJTACL to Atlantic City and catch the Gambler's Express to Penn Station? (I'm not sure there'd be any good reason to ever, but it should work on days the Gambler's Express runs, right?)

The object of this brochure/poster is to answer the simple question asked dozens of times per day by students from [Villanova/Temple/BrynMawr/ArtInstitute/etc] and by other non-students too, most frequently asked at the SEPTA ticket window. These folks come to 30th via SEPTA Regional Rail because they know "it's the big train station" but that's where their knowledge stops. Frequently the line at 30th is a dozen people long and most people want to buy a ticket for a Regional Rail train that leaves in less than five minutes (there are no ticket machines), and these questions slow things down tremendously because the SEPTA agents try to give as helpful a short answer as they can rather than a total brush-off (to their great credit). It's just that no under-a-minute verbal answer can actually help someone completely unfamiliar with the options. There is also a SEPTA information kiosk near the ticket window but not right next to it where such a question would be perfectly appropriate. Unfortunately, it's not always staffed, it's not very prominent especially if there are crowds in the SEPTA concourse, when it is staffed there's only one agent there, and that agent only knows and dispenses SEPTA advice (which generally doesn't even extend to specifics about the R7/NJT transfer). Also, the traveler at the ticket window would prefer to buy their ticket then and there rather than go talk to someone else and then wait through a ten-minute line again, if given the information in a way that they could make such a quick decision. The brochure/poster would solve this issue cleanly and neatly.

The people in this situation aren't going to want to take NJT/ACES (an even more complicated transfer, and one not designed to be a transfer, and with practically no frequency and greater total expense than a Keystone or low-bucket Regional by itself). While NJT/ACES can get you to New York from 30th St, it's really only something a railfan would want to do. This brochure/poster isn't designed for railfans (while the proposed website would provide more details on more options targeted at different audiences such as novices, budget travelers, and railfans).

And these people also aren't going to want to take PATCO/RiverLine/NJTNEC because it would actually entail taking either [sET1]/PATCO/RiverLine/NJT, where [sET1] is one of [Any Regional Rail with one of about ten possible destination designations, but not any of the other Regional Rails with a different set of about ten possible destination designations], [walk two blocks and catch a #21 or #42 bus, which aren't stopping at the usual places for the next two years because of bridge construction], or [walk about twelve blocks]; or [sET2/PATCO/RiverLine/NJT], where [sET2] is New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Line to Lindenwold, but then you have to take PATCO in the opposite direction (back towards Philadelphia) to Camden! Either way, you're talking about three transfers and four separate tickets each purchased from a different vending machine or ticket agent! Nobody with a set schedule and a backpack already at 30th St Station will even consider these options. While again, railfans will love them (NJT/PATCO/RiverLine has great scenery!)

The distinction between Keystones and Regionals and Acelas can be explained by the Amtrak information booth, which is both impossible to miss once you're in the main station hall and well-staffed at all times. If a passenger is going to decide "I'm willing to pay at least $43 for a simpler, shorter ride"--"I'll need that extra hour to do my research at MAD, the Met, etc" or "I'm leery of even a simple transfer, I don't care how easy you tell me it is!" or whatever--they don't need any further information to make that decision, so clear and simple is best. "Fares from $43" isn't misleading, and every 60 minutes there is either a Regional or a Keystone plus an Acela--two trains every hour, pretty much, but a same-day Acela is likely to be more like $80-90 while a Regional is more likely to be $64-75 and the Keystone $43-55 or so. Amtrak information can explain all of that and explain exactly how long the wait for each of these train types is at that moment.

The two buses (Mega and Bolt) would be a semi-helpful additional set of options, since they offer another combined 22 departures per day and are even cheaper, but they require mobile internet to book. Also, neither SEPTA nor Amtrak have any interest in advertising them, and any brochure/poster within 30th St Station would have to be vetted by one or both of them depending on where in the station it's located. So unless MegaBus or Boltbus paid Amtrak for advertising rights (and Amtrak might not want to accept that deal!), I doubt they will ever be advertised within the station.

 

[AlanB]

Well hopefully Wayman, this initiative by NJT & SEPTA will help. You can also read more details on this from Metro Magazine here and here.

 

[wayman]

There simply is not enough traffic to Atlantic City from New York even in the most optimistic of projections to justify it, when zillion other more worthy projects are going abegging.

But the relative merits of various projects may not be an issue if the casinos saw value in their train having better track, and don't care about (for example) SEPTA's efficiency.

Exactly. Such a connection would be fully instigated and funded by the casinos. Provided ACES succeeds in the worst economy we're likely to see for decades (and the leanest revenue years for casinos), I fully expect the casinos to undertake such a project along with doubling frequencies for ACES after the economy starts to round the bend in a few years.

Then again, there's still the question of whether the casinos think they can collect tens if not hundreds of millions in gambling profits as a sole result of making the Gambler's Express 10 minutes faster and having it not awkwardly switching direction. And I kinda suspect that the value just isn't there for the casinos.

Remember that unlike Amtrak, SEPTA, NJT, or any other transit agency anywhere, casinos can basically be considered to have infinite money and extraordinarily ambitious advance infrastructure planning (an "if you build it, they will come" mentality), and there are rarely taxpayers or local government officials able to restrict or obstruct their actions. Profit is always the bottom line, but casinos often have a belief that profit can be generated by glamour, glitz, and advertising.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Passengers riding the Keystones from NY aren't by and large going to CC, they are headed for the corridor west of Philly.

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Keystone trains tended to have fairly high turnover in downtown Philly. And I have to wonder if there exist passengers who'd like to get from other Commuter Tunnel stations to New York City efficiently.

Amtrak would also probably love to have a flyover at or near Trenton to cross over the R7 line there.

I don't understand this. The Penn side R7 line is just the commuter stopping pattern NEC service from downtown Philadelphia to Trenton, right?

 

[AlanB]

Passengers riding the Keystones from NY aren't by and large going to CC, they are headed for the corridor west of Philly.

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Keystone trains tended to have fairly high turnover in downtown Philly. And I have to wonder if there exist passengers who'd like to get from other Commuter Tunnel stations to New York City efficiently.

I'm actually not sure of the ridership numbers. However, what you're proposing would increase running times for those continuing on to NY so as to benefit those riding the shorter distance. And those short riders do have an alternative, transfering to SEPTA, which they can do for free by the way. Those going onto NY have no choice, but to increase their time on the train.

Amtrak would also probably love to have a flyover at or near Trenton to cross over the R7 line there.

I don't understand this. The Penn side R7 line is just the commuter stopping pattern NEC service from downtown Philadelphia to Trenton, right?

The outbound R7 runs local from 30th Street up the NEC to Trenton. Either prior to arriving at TRE, it must be crossed over the 4 track main at Morris interlocking, or after making its stop at TRE, it then must be crossed over all 4 tracks at Ham and Fair interlockings just east of TRE. Either way, it shuts down the NEC for a few minutes and forces slow downs in express trains for miles. A flyover would solve this problem.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The outbound R7 runs local from 30th Street up the NEC to Trenton. Either prior to arriving at TRE, it must be crossed over the 4 track main at Morris interlocking, or after making its stop at TRE, it then must be crossed over all 4 tracks at Ham and Fair interlockings just east of TRE. Either way, it shuts down the NEC for a few minutes and forces slow downs in express trains for miles. A flyover would solve this problem.

Are you saying that one of the outer four NEC tracks is used for the inbound R7 Trenton trains, and the outer track on the opposite side of the mainline is used for the outbound R7 trains, and the flyover would allow changing tracks when reversing directions without having to block the center tracks that are used for express trains?

 

[AlanB]

The outbound R7 runs local from 30th Street up the NEC to Trenton. Either prior to arriving at TRE, it must be crossed over the 4 track main at Morris interlocking, or after making its stop at TRE, it then must be crossed over all 4 tracks at Ham and Fair interlockings just east of TRE. Either way, it shuts down the NEC for a few minutes and forces slow downs in express trains for miles. A flyover would solve this problem.

Are you saying that one of the outer four NEC tracks is used for the inbound R7 Trenton trains, and the outer track on the opposite side of the mainline is used for the outbound R7 trains, and the flyover would allow changing tracks when reversing directions without having to block the center tracks that are used for express trains?

They don't to my knowledge generally reverse on one of the express tracks, but they do have to cross over them. And that means danger signals and all the resulting downline unfavorable signals to approaching trains. Hopefully this image from a game gives you some idea of what I'm talking about. The green line/signal to the right of the picture represents what an R7 outbound from Philly must do prior to entering Trenton station so as to be on the correct side of the NEC to return to Philly. If it can't do that for some reason, or they decide that they want to make the transfer easy for those going from SEPTA to NJT, and the train pulls directly into TRE, then it would pull out onto the siding to the left where I've set another green signal to show the line that would then cross it back over the NEC to the correct side.