A Brit's View

[Train2104]

This has been tried as well, and ridership was awful.

I wonder why? NYP-WAS is one of the busiest, if not the busiest city pair for Amtrak.

 

[AlanB]

This has been tried as well, and ridership was awful.

I wonder why? NYP-WAS is one of the busiest, if not the busiest city pair for Amtrak.

Actually I believe that NYP-PHL is the busiest city pair for Amtrak. DC probably runs second, but I'm sure that Philly is the most popular pair with NY.

And the amount of time saved wasn't significant enough to make it really stand out. It probably also didn't help that there was only one southbound express per day in the morning and one northbound in the evening.

 

[cirdan]

What about access to the platforms? You mentioned doors and time to load/unload, but if you can't get one train load of people off out of the way and another train load of people onto the platform to be ready to load, it won't matter how fast you're loading or turning a train.

Yes that is a major issue at Penn Station. And it is further exacerbated by NJT's poor design of their cars, which are not well designed for smooth flow onto and off of cars. Amtrak also suffers from the same problem but they can be excused since they are not into moving the masses. Though I would note that a typical TGV train has better flow design than a Amfleet Regional car. Acelas get closer to what one sees on TGVs. Basically the vestibule area is much larger allowing parallel counterflow through there, and doors are wider too.

In Paris RER and Banlieu trains the door width are such that a flow of 4 parallel lines of people is feasible, and on some three parallel flows are forced by judicious placement of divider posts. It is astounding how quickly each of those doubledecker cars can disgorge their 180 or so passengers at a stop (provided people don;t get into an arm wrestling match with people trying to board that is ).

Again platform area is a paramount consideration too. For example at the Gare du Nord or Chatelet Les Halles, two major interchange station between 3 RER routes and a bunch of Metro routes, platform width is 30' with massive banks of stairs and high speed escalators!! So those 180 per car discharged from a 8 car train can disperse very very quickly

In Spain, some of the busier stations on the metros have platforms on both sides. Often one side is for boarding and the other for alighting and so they avoid passengers leaving the train jostling those who are boarding it.

 

[trainviews]

Different cultural expectations, Americans expect to get on a train and sit anywhere. "Can't do it" doesn't have anything to do with it.

That's possibly true in the NEC, but the system used at SEA and PDX for the Cascades, where one gets in line and is given a sticker with a seat assignment, works reasonably well. It would be nice to get an assignment when making a reservation, but the Cascades system is better than nothing.

Yeah it works, but it is staff costly with two employees on duty handing out stickers at each departure. With reservations on the ticket it might be a good idea to keep one of them for info/help to passengers who need it, but the other is really just expenses at no benefit adding 1 salary x approx. 10 hours a day x 7 days a week x 2 stations to the system...

 

[jis]

This has been tried as well, and ridership was awful.

I wonder why? NYP-WAS is one of the busiest, if not the busiest city pair for Amtrak.

My conjecture is that principles that apply to true HSR do not apply to the NEC because (a) it is not really an HSR, it is equivalent to an upgraded classic line in Europe and (b) density of Amtrak (specially Acela) service is too sparse to make it possible to run multiple trains with multiple stopping patterns.

Again to give an example - on the TGV Est every hour there are the following trains running the length of the HSR:

1-2x Strasbourg and beyond TGV/ICE

1x (at least) stopping to Metz

1x (at least) stopping to Nancy

.5x to Luxembourg

There are additional trains during rush hours, and none during the night.

This enables a mix of nonstops and ones that stop at the three stations on the HSR (Champaign-Ardennes, Meuse and Lorrain) and yet running some nonstops.

If we had like 4 tph all Acela, then we could run a pattern like

1 nonstop

2 few stops

1 all stops

providing uniform level of service in all and connectivity and speed to suite most.

 

[Gratt]

This has been tried as well, and ridership was awful.

I wonder why? NYP-WAS is one of the busiest, if not the busiest city pair for Amtrak.

My conjecture is that principles that apply to true HSR do not apply to the NEC because (a) it is not really an HSR, it is equivalent to an upgraded classic line in Europe and (b) density of Amtrak (specially Acela) service is too sparse to make it possible to run multiple trains with multiple stopping patterns.

Again to give an example - on the TGV Est every hour there are the following trains running the length of the HSR:

1-2x Strasbourg and beyond TGV/ICE

1x (at least) stopping to Metz

1x (at least) stopping to Nancy

.5x to Luxembourg

There are additional trains during rush hours, and none during the night.

This enables a mix of nonstops and ones that stop at the three stations on the HSR (Champaign-Ardennes, Meuse and Lorrain) and yet running some nonstops.

If we had like 4 tph all Acela, then we could run a pattern like

1 nonstop

2 few stops

1 all stops

providing uniform level of service in all and connectivity and speed to suite most.

Wasn't that tried on the NEC? I remember a NYP-WAS Acela train that only made one stop in PHL.

It was discontinued so I imagine it was judged not worth it.

 

[jis]

This has been tried as well, and ridership was awful.

I wonder why? NYP-WAS is one of the busiest, if not the busiest city pair for Amtrak.

My conjecture is that principles that apply to true HSR do not apply to the NEC because (a) it is not really an HSR, it is equivalent to an upgraded classic line in Europe and (b) density of Amtrak (specially Acela) service is too sparse to make it possible to run multiple trains with multiple stopping patterns.

Again to give an example - on the TGV Est every hour there are the following trains running the length of the HSR:

1-2x Strasbourg and beyond TGV/ICE

1x (at least) stopping to Metz

1x (at least) stopping to Nancy

.5x to Luxembourg

There are additional trains during rush hours, and none during the night.

This enables a mix of nonstops and ones that stop at the three stations on the HSR (Champaign-Ardennes, Meuse and Lorrain) and yet running some nonstops.

If we had like 4 tph all Acela, then we could run a pattern like

1 nonstop

2 few stops

1 all stops

providing uniform level of service in all and connectivity and speed to suite most.

Wasn't that tried on the NEC? I remember a NYP-WAS Acela train that only made one stop in PHL.

It was discontinued so I imagine it was judged not worth it.

One train once a day is not what I am talking about. I am talking about at least hourly service with multiple frequencies. that has never been tried, since we do not have enough rolling stock to actually run such a service.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It's been tried here, and the Acela passengers damn near revolted from what I understand.

Different cultural expectations, Americans expect to get on a train and sit anywhere. "Can't do it" doesn't have anything to do with it.

Really? Seem to be enough Amtrak trains where you are herded into a particular coach according to destination, and how does the airline industry get away with it with millions more passengers than Amtrak? Do you expect to sit anywhere on a plane?

I had the same reaction you did. Over the course of reading previous posts it sounded like the roll-out of assigned seating was gummed up a bit and that some parts of the system didn't work as expected. I don't doubt that some folks just didn't care to follow the rules but I'm not sure that alone can fully explain the withdrawal. It seems more likely that there were multiple contributing factors.

 

[jis]

Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.

I have never seen that done in New York Penn station.

Try Washington, Boston or Philly. I have not seen it done in New Haven or Stamford or Baltimore either.

 

[leemell]

Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.

I have never seen that done in New York Penn station.

Try Washington, Boston or Philly. I have not seen it done in New Haven or Stamford or Baltimore either.

Boarded twice in WAS never saw it done there.

 

[jis]

Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.

I have never seen that done in New York Penn station.

Try Washington, Boston or Philly. I have not seen it done in New Haven or Stamford or Baltimore either.

Boarded twice in WAS never saw it done there.

You were not herded by a single gate until about 10 minutes before departure and then go through a bedlam to get to the train? Lucky you! I have even gotten sent from the Club Acela to the circus by the gate because I was just a mere Business Class passenger.

Incidentally, Amtrak has got to be one of the few transport outfits that does not extend early boarding privileges to the highest status frequent traveler in its program!

 

[Ryan]

It's been tried here, and the Acela passengers damn near revolted from what I understand.

Different cultural expectations, Americans expect to get on a train and sit anywhere. "Can't do it" doesn't have anything to do with it.

Really? Seem to be enough Amtrak trains where you are herded into a particular coach according to destination, and how does the airline industry get away with it with millions more passengers than Amtrak? Do you expect to sit anywhere on a plane?

I had the same reaction you did. Over the course of reading previous posts it sounded like the roll-out of assigned seating was gummed up a bit and that some parts of the system didn't work as expected. I don't doubt that some folks just didn't care to follow the rules but I'm not sure that alone can fully explain the withdrawal. It seems more likely that there were multiple contributing factors.

You're right. Here's an old post by Alan that explains more. Would the passengers feel differently if the rollout was more smooth? Possible, but given the Type A "I'm the most important person in the world and want to do whatever the hell I feel like" attitude by most business type travelers, I doubt it.

I think that might work. But then, you said you thought they did that in Acela first class when it was first introduced and then dropped it---not sure about that. Does anybody know? After all they make quite a thing over advertising "reserved seats".-in that type of "first class" equipment. It seems kind of bad that those of us in that class still have to rush for that favorite seats just like the coach passengers.

They did indeed assign First Class seats early on when Acela was first launched. I was even able to actually select my seat from the on line site on several of my journeys. It was part of a test program that would have eventually lead to assigning seats even in Business Class on the Acela. In fact the train was even built with special equipment to work with this project.

On a normal rail car there is a rail above a seat where the conductor places the seat check, the Acela's have none. Instead above every seat in both first and business class there is an electronic device with lights that shows the row and seat number. Had the project been successful, when the conductor took your ticket, instead of punching it like they do today, he would have scanned the ticket into a PDA like device.

That would have caused the light above your seat to light, indicating that someone was sitting there to other passengers and telling the conductor that he had already collected that ticket. The light would automatically go out when the train reached the passengers destination.

The idea was that this made life easier for everyone, it indicated that the ticket had been collected, it indicated that the seat was occupied, it allowed stations further up the track to sell the seats of no shows, and it was supposed to cut out the chaff that one finds on the floor of a typical train from all of those punched tickets and seat checks.

The test program in First Class failed for several reasons, only some of which can be blamed on Amtrak. Reason one, Amtrak as usual ran out of money to finish the project. So the software if it still exists is full of bugs that never got worked out, because they had to stop paying for the R & D on the software.

Reason two, the conductors and their union balked at the ticketing devices. This was before PDA's really came into their own, so the device that Amtrak had was rather large and bulky. Carrying one around for several hours would have been a bit of a chore and I can't blame them on this concern. The conductors were of course also worried that this would cause a reduction in the number of jobs available, so they fought it for that reason too.

Reason three, the First Class passengers balked at assigned seating. There were some, like me who liked the idea, but many others who were used to just picking any seat that they wanted on the Metroliners, refused to seat in there assigned seats. And I do mean refused, I saw several passengers tell and attendant that they were not going to move to their assigned seat.

Some attendants early on tried to enforce the assigned seating, but many others fearing the loss of their tips didn't even bother to try. Most conductors also didn't seem to care, probably because they wanted the project to fail because of the reasons I mentioned above. The one time that I did see a conductor enforce the assigned seats, he actually had to threaten kicking one man off the train, before the guy would move to his assigned seat.

So after maybe four or five months of assigned seating in First Class and with the equipment not yet ready for use, and the lack of funding the project was abandoned or at least put on a very distant back burner. Today of course with the advances in software and the size of the PDA, this is an idea that probably should be resurrected and brought to fruition. However, with Amtrak many other far more important needs for the limited funding that they have, I doubt that we will see this projected getting dusted off and implemented.

Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.

I have never seen that done in New York Penn station.

Try Washington, Boston or Philly. I have not seen it done in New Haven or Stamford or Baltimore either.

Boarded twice in WAS never saw it done there.

You're a lucky man. Out of the dozens of trains I've boarded there, I've never not had my ticket surveyed before being allowed to head out to the platform.

 

[AlanB]

Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.

I have never seen that done in New York Penn station.

Try Washington, Boston or Philly. I have not seen it done in New Haven or Stamford or Baltimore either.

Boarded twice in WAS never saw it done there.

You're a lucky man. Out of the dozens of trains I've boarded there, I've never not had my ticket surveyed before being allowed to head out to the platform.

I've had my ticket checked at least twice within the last year and I was coming out of the Club Acela to board. You'd think that at for those coming out of the lounge they wouldn't bother; but no.

 

[AlanB]

You were not herded by a single gate until about 10 minutes before departure and then go through a bedlam to get to the train? Lucky you! I have even gotten sent from the Club Acela to the circus by the gate because I was just a mere Business Class passenger.

Thankfully they seem to have stopped that nonsense in DC, you can now board again from the CA. Even people boarding Regionals who can gain access to the CA no longer have to go out front and wait in the line now.

Incidentally, Amtrak has got to be one of the few transport outfits that does not extend early boarding privileges to the highest status frequent traveler in its program!

While it would be nice, Senior Director Michael Blakey (head of AGR) nearly had to bang his head into the wall until it was bloody, just to get some of the Metropolitan lounges to even accept Select Plus credentials as valid for admittance into the lounges. He'd probably need to show up in a tank armed to the hilt to get the stations to start pre-boarding those with status ahead of the crowd.

 

[jis]

It's been tried here, and the Acela passengers damn near revolted from what I understand.

Different cultural expectations, Americans expect to get on a train and sit anywhere. "Can't do it" doesn't have anything to do with it.

Really? Seem to be enough Amtrak trains where you are herded into a particular coach according to destination, and how does the airline industry get away with it with millions more passengers than Amtrak? Do you expect to sit anywhere on a plane?

I had the same reaction you did. Over the course of reading previous posts it sounded like the roll-out of assigned seating was gummed up a bit and that some parts of the system didn't work as expected. I don't doubt that some folks just didn't care to follow the rules but I'm not sure that alone can fully explain the withdrawal. It seems more likely that there were multiple contributing factors.

You're right. Here's an old post by Alan that explains more. Would the passengers feel differently if the rollout was more smooth? Possible, but given the Type A "I'm the most important person in the world and want to do whatever the hell I feel like" attitude by most business type travelers, I doubt it.

And yet the same type A business person sits like a pussycat in exactly the seat assigned to him/her when flying. Of course they play every possible game beforehand to have the right seat assigned, but once they have boarding card in hand, they go exactly to the seat that shows on their boarding card.

 

[AlanB]

Part of the problem with the trial on Acela was the fact that Amtrak didn't exactly make it well known that they were assigning seats in FC. And even if you didn't pick a seat, you were assigned one at the time of booking. The airlines on the other hand assigned a seat when you got to the airport at that time, if you didn't book it in advance.

So too many business people who had underlings or corporate travel offices booking things would find out too late at the last minute that they had a seat facing backwards and 5 rows away from a co-worker that they had planned to sit with.

If there were fewer backwards facing seats and if Amtrak had done a better job, heck if they had done any job, at making it known that they were doing seat assignments no matter what, things might have gone better. If the old way of doing things on the Metroliner hadn't already been that way, it would have helped. And if the attendants hadn't waffled, it would have helped.

Instead, with the demise of the rest of the ticketing plans for Acela, Amtrak just let it go. The software however still exists and could easily be turned back on at any time.

But if Amtrak goes down that road, they need to make it well known in advance what's going to happen so that people (or at least most people) aren't caught by surprise.