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henryj

Conductor
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Houston, Texas
I'm back in America for a book promotion tour and yet again I am appalled at the inefficiency of Amtrak. I want to love Amtrak as it is the US's only passenger train service but the company's clunky procedures and often rude staff make it very hard.

FULL STORY
 
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I wonder which one I am: A senior citizen, mor a tourist who fancies a train ride? Or maybe both?? ;)
 
I agree that NEC operations could be made more efficient as they will be - hopefully - when e-ticketing is finally introduced. But even the NEC is not up to the high volume operation of a major HSR corridor service. The NEC has approx 36 trains on a weekday between WAS and NYP and they have to require people to buy tickets in advance in order to avoid standing room only trains. If the NEC ran large capacity trains every 15 minutes, the business and ticket collection model could change. We simply do not have the high volume corridor services here in the US as they do in Europe. Hopefully, some day that will change.

The writer of the article is clearly of the impression that Amtrak is mostly NEC and LD trains with a few scattered corridor services. The passenger count numbers for FY11 don't bear that out:

NEC 10,899,899 passengers

State supported and other short distance corridors: 14,765,011

LD Trains: 4,521,833.

The state corridors now account for almost 1/2 of all Amtrak passengers.

The LD trains provide corridor and intercity travel services for many cities. That shows up in the top city pairs in the LD train reports. The recent PRIIA report provided ridership profiles for 5 eastern LD trains. On the Crescent, 25% of passengers were on vacation or traveling for leisure/recreation; 20% to 30% range for the LSL, Silvers, Palmettos. But, people take the plane for vacation or leisure travel, too. And those who follow the airline industry don't make a fuss about that.

Edit: hate it when I leave out a critical "not".
 
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I can't help but agree with the writer when he says Amtrak, at least the non-corridor services, (and since I am in Texas where there are no corridor services except one spur, essentially all services for me) are for senior citizens or tourists with plenty of time and money at hand, not for point to point passengers as such, especially the single travelers are short changed in Amtrak setup. If I want to travel long distance cross-country as a single traveler my only options on Amtrak is either to rough out two or three days and nights in a Coach seat or pay exorbitant money and book a roomette or bedroom meant for two or more people. Why is there no sleeping accommodation based on per passenger basis is beyond my understanding. Yes, budget cuts and all that, but I am surprised why right from the outset it was not thought that single passengers also travel?
 
All the comments notwithstanding, I think it is important to air what others think of Amtrak, particularly those from other countries that have impressive rail service as in Britain and the rest of Europe or Japan. Hiding in our little cocoons or sticking our head in the sand will not help improve Amtrak or US passenger rail.
 
The writer is more or less correct about the NEC operations and more or less wrong about the demographics of who rides the LD trains. Just IMHO of course.
IMHO, your humble opinion is usually accurate. :lol:
 
All the comments notwithstanding, I think it is important to air what others think of Amtrak, particularly those from other countries that have impressive rail service as in Britain and the rest of Europe or Japan. Hiding in our little cocoons or sticking our head in the sand will not help improve Amtrak or US passenger rail.
The fact that many of their complaints aren't grounded in reality tends to decrease the importance I place on their opinion.

you have to provide ID to buy the ticket.
I've never had to provide an ID to buy a ticket.
Then they expect you to turn up 15 minutes in advance
Really? I don't think so.
So as a result there is a conductor for every two carriages.
Not that I've ever noticed.
And getting a smile or a thank you out of the conductor on our train between DC and Philadelphia was quite impossible.
Impossible? Hardly.
they cater mainly for senior citizens and tourists who fancy a train ride.
Jis already nailed this one.
they do not provide a genuine train service that can be used as an alternative to the car for local people
Of course they do (for long distance travel).
Amtrak managers need to come to Europe and look at how to run an efficicient and cheap rail service.
Why don't we try funding Amtrak at European levels and see what happens first?
 
you have to provide ID to buy the ticket.
I've never had to provide an ID to buy a ticket.
To be fair though you do have to provide an Id if you buy a ticket at a ticket counter. Not everyone is as adept at using other means of getting tickets.

Then they expect you to turn up 15 minutes in advance
Really? I don't think so.
Again to be fair, Amtrak does advise people to get to the station 15 to 30 mins before departure even on the NEC

So as a result there is a conductor for every two carriages.
Not that I've ever noticed.
Again to be fair I believe it is roughly one per three, so the foreigner could be cut a little slack there.

And getting a smile or a thank you out of the conductor on our train between DC and Philadelphia was quite impossible.
Impossible? Hardly.
If it was for the particular person in that particular case, who is to say it was or was not impossible? ;) I have come across conductors who can be quite grouchy. Then again I have come across very cheerful ones too. I have even had a conductor lie to me through his teeth about what he said was Amtrak policy, so much so that I had to tell him that he was blowing through his a$$, at which point he went off in a huff! This was at Memphis on the CONO, and some of the AU members who were on that trip know exactly what I am talking about.

Amtrak managers need to come to Europe and look at how to run an efficient and cheap rail service.
Why don't we try funding Amtrak at European levels and see what happens first?
Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.

As for cheap, well British Rail hardly is a good example of "cheap" as in "inexpensive" I might add. Continental HSR OTOH is indeed inexpensive compared to Amtrak, specially those routes that make money and have paid off their capital too and are subsidizing other newer lines. But the important point is that the society/government chose to seed the development by providing initial capital, and eventually they have reaped the results from it.
 
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So this brilliant guy comes in fresh off the plane and immediately knows how to solve all our problems, and we are supposed to be impressed? NOPE.

It seems that everyone from any European country knows how things are to be run anywhere and everywhere. I have seen way too much of htis mindset over the last 20 years. Doesn't mean that they donb't have some good ideas, and that there are not things we can learn, but before getting too much in an uproar about what they think about anything and everything, those of us European ancestry should be asking ourselves why our ancestors left the place. Given the dangers and difficulties of the leap into the unknown, those moves were not mailed lightly.
 
I travel extensively in Europe, and live part-time in Germany. As far as comparing Amtrak to rail service in continental Europe, clearly there's no comparison. I'm just amazed that the criticism comes from a Brit; the current British rail system is as bad for surly staff, inefficient operation, and antiquated modes of operation as anything I've ever seen on Amtrak.
 
I wonder which one I am: A senior citizen, mor a tourist who fancies a train ride? Or maybe both?? ;)
I agree, apparently I'm just a tourist...

More like I just prefer train travel to air travel/bus travel.
 
To be fair though you do have to provide an Id if you buy a ticket at a ticket counter. Not everyone is as adept at using other means of getting tickets.
True, but that doesn't make the statement any more correct. You don't "have to" show an ID to get a ticket.

Again to be fair, Amtrak does advise people to get to the station 15 to 30 mins before departure even on the NEC
Certainly, but it isn't a requirement or even an expectation.
Again to be fair I believe it is roughly one per three, so the foreigner could be cut a little slack there.
If that was the only inaccuracy, I might be more inclined to. Since it's a laundry list of things that the author can't bother to get right, I'm far less inclined to be interested in their opinion based on such shaky ground.
If it was for the particular person in that particular case, who is to say it was or was not impossible? ;) I have come across conductors who can be quite grouchy. Then again I have come across very cheerful ones too. I have even had a conductor lie to me through his teeth about what he said was Amtrak policy, so much so that I had to tell him that he was blowing through his a$$, at which point he went off in a huff! This was at Memphis on the CONO, and some of the AU members who were on that trip know exactly what I am talking about.
Impossible implies that they don't exist, and we know that they certainly do. It's possible to get a smile or thank you, the fact that a person didn't get one in a particular trip doesn't make it impossible.
Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk tom the platform and onto the train unchecked.
I don't disagree with that, there certainly are some things that can be done. But it's hardly fair to blame Amtrak management for a problem that isn't of their doing. Funding and geography go a long way towards the difference between Amtrak and Europe, and no number of trips to Europe by Amtrak management are going to fix that.
 
Frankly I think we are being a bit too touchy about what one tourist opined. But may be that's just me who generally likes to place oneself in the position of the person saying something to see why they might be taking such a position. Oh well... last post from me on this subject....
 
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Actually I think even without getting Europe style support there are several things that Amtrak could easily pick up from general European passenger train practices that would on the whole make the passenger's experience a little bit better - for example getting away from the ridiculous practice of lining everyone up and checking their tickets before letting them go to the train, always at the same station where the folks boarding a commuter train at the next track just walk onto the platform and onto the train unchecked.
Maybe because my recent train riding has been in California, that is something I have not experienced out here. I know that I have run into it a couple times in the northeast, but ath was something like 16 to 20 years ago and I do not remember where it was. That truly is a waste of manpower, and could too easily morph into a TSA style operation.
 
As a fellow Brit, albeit now living on mainland Europe, I feel I should add my 2 cents worth.

It's always easy to criticise and it is especially easy to criticise things you don't know and don't understand.

It is my opinion that under the circumstances, Amtrak is providing a very fine service indeed.

We shouldn't compare apples with oranges. True, the NEC is the only part of Amtrak that is vaguely like a typical European corridor.

But to simplify things, and I hope the inhabitants of Illinois, Texas and other places will excuse me, but in simple terms, the USA has two long coastlines where most people live and inbetween there is much less population-wise.

That is why the corridors are precisely, there, along the coasts, with maybe a handful of short(ish) incursions inland such as the Keystone corridor.

So no surprises there.

Europe is different: There are major cities and clumps of multiple cities all over. So all of Europe is a web of interconnecting and overlapping corridors.

Amtrak LD serice has nothing to do with we have in Europe.

There are maybe two or three special cases of trains that take upwards of a day to get anywhere, but they are few and far between.

In fact there used to be many more but over the last 20 years ago they have been thinned out because national services are accorded higher priority and if you want to do such a long trip today you'll probably be forced to change trains multiple times. Very few people do that any more. Most prefer to fly. Even booking such trains is no longer simple as it happens so rarely that booking agents don't know about the possibilities.

In fact such interoperability is getting more and more challenging. In the 1970s most rolling stock was built to UIC norms and could run from one country to another without any hassle. Today there are more and more national solutions and international trains are often trumpeted as being great innovative achievements although they were normal some decades back,

So in that respect Amtrak has retained something that Europe has lost, and they deserve Kudos for that.

There used to be a direct train from Amsterdam to Rome. There was also one from Lisbon to Moscow (and this despite the uiron curtian). Today it would take about four different trains to do that.

So if anything, Europeans ought to be coming to Amtrak to learn about LD services.
 
Frankly I think we are being a bit too touchy about what one tourist opined. But may be that's just me who generally likes to place oneself in the position of the person saying something to see why they might be taking such a position. Oh well... last post from me on this subject....
I completely understand taking a look through the authors eyes and feeling the way that they do is understandable. My issue comes from them taking the negatives, and then assuming that they are universal truths that apply in every single situation. It would be like saying "the trains never run on time" if the authors train were late, absolute statements based on a single (or even a handful of) data point(s) tend to be wrong and advice based on those statements should be scrutinized accordingly.
 
Frankly I think we are being a bit too touchy about what one tourist opined. But may be that's just me who generally likes to place oneself in the position of the person saying something to see why they might be taking such a position. Oh well... last post from me on this subject....
I completely understand taking a look through the authors eyes and feeling the way that they do is understandable. My issue comes from them taking the negatives, and then assuming that they are universal truths that apply in every single situation. It would be like saying "the trains never run on time" if the authors train were late, absolute statements based on a single (or even a handful of) data point(s) tend to be wrong and advice based on those statements should be scrutinized accordingly.
Christian Wolmar is a rail journalist (and probably the only journalist who writes about trains in a big way for an audience other than the ralifan community)

As such, it is his job to sell stories.

Some of his articles, I must admit, are extremely good and his insights are quite inspiring.

But sometimes, you just feel he was under pressure to finish something while the clock was ticking.

Dissing off other people's trains is one easy way to do that.
 
In fact there used to be many more but over the last 20 years ago they have been thinned out because national services are accorded higher priority and if you want to do such a long trip today you'll probably be forced to change trains multiple times. Very few people do that any more. Most prefer to fly. Even booking such trains is no longer simple as it happens so rarely that booking agents don't know about the possibilities.

In fact such interoperability is getting more and more challenging. In the 1970s most rolling stock was built to UIC norms and could run from one country to another without any hassle. Today there are more and more national solutions and international trains are often trumpeted as being great innovative achievements although they were normal some decades back,
Has the good old Eurocity network been completely dismantled. That's a shame.

I suppose some of the old Eurocity routings, specially among France, Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Italy are probably covered by various extended high speed runs now e.g. Paris - Frankfurt, Frankfurt - Vienna, Paris - Zurich, Parin - Milan, Milan - Zurich, Paris - Brussels - Amsterdam etc.. But the longer range trains are I suppose pretty much gone. Have those France - Spain Talgos stopped running, the likes of Pablo Casals?

I really liked the names of many Eurosities - like Edelweiss, Mozart, Maria Theresea, etc.
 
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I suppose some of the old Eurocity routings, specially among France, Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Italy are probably covered by various extended high speed runs now e.g. Paris - Frankfurt, Frankfurt - Vienna, Paris - Zurich, Parin - Milan, Milan - Zurich, Paris - Brussels - Amsterdam etc.. But the longer range trains are I suppose pretty much gone. Have those France - Spain Talgos stopped running, the likes of Pablo Casals?

I really liked the names of many Eurosities - like Edelweiss, Mozart, Maria Theresea, etc.
Oh, no worries, the Pablo Casals is still running. In fact I'm a regular.

Most of the other trains you mention are also still running.

But those are night trains, or day trains interconnecting two neighboring countries.

They are not really in the same league as Amtrak LD trains such as the SWC or the CZ which are both night and day trains and whose end-to-end mileages are well into the 4 digits.

the last train in Europe that was a bit like that was the Orient Express but that's developed more into a land cruise basically pricing out all the normal travellers.

It's a real pity. If today you want to go from somewhere like Denmark to somewhere like Rome you've got to be a hardcore railfan to even consider the train.

Amtrak's LD services make it so much easier and more attractive.

Speaking as a tourist, LD trains are one of the things that make the USA such a great country to visit and for me it's been such a great way to at least get a passing impression of parts of the country that I would probably otherwise never have seen, not to mention some of the wonderful people I've met on trains and some of the great conversations we had. So that's why I find it wrong to see Americans humbling themselves and saying that things are better in Europe. They're just not comparing likes with likes.
 
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I suppose some of the old Eurocity routings, specially among France, Benelux, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Italy are probably covered by various extended high speed runs now e.g. Paris - Frankfurt, Frankfurt - Vienna, Paris - Zurich, Paris - Milan, Milan - Zurich, Paris - Brussels - Amsterdam etc.. But the longer range trains are I suppose pretty much gone. Have those France - Spain Talgos stopped running, the likes of Pablo Casals?

I really liked the names of many Eurocities - like Edelweiss, Mozart, Maria Theresea, etc.
the last train in Europe that was a bit like that was the Orient Express but that's developed more into a land cruise basically pricing out all the normal travellers.
Yes, I did travel by the Orient Express from Paris to Vienna before they discontinued the non-tourist version of it. It was a delightful journey. Then I took the Maria Theresea from Vienna to Zurich. I had also taken an Eurocity - Mantovani IIRC, from Rome to Zurich. Mantovani ran from Naples to Hamburg Altona at one time I believe.

It's a real pity. If today you want to go from somewhere like Denmark to somewhere like Rome you've got to be a hardcore railfan to even consider the train.

Amtrak's LD services make it so much easier and more attractive.
They indeed are. Amtrak sleepers are outright luxurious compared to some others. Unfortunately the bilevel sleepers are a bit cramped specially in the roomettes, but for that you get the Sightseer Lounge and the spacious bi-level Diners. My preference in roomettes definitely leans towards the single level Viewliner ones.

Speaking as a tourist, LD trains are one of the things that make the USA such a great country to visit and for me it's been such a great way to at least get a passing impression of parts of the country that I would probably otherwise never have seen, not to mention some of the wonderful people I've met on trains and some of the great conversations we had. So that's why I find it wrong to see Americans humbling themselves and saying that things are better in Europe. They're just not comparing likes with likes.
I agree.

What may not be obvious to a casual foreigner traveling by Amtrak LD though, of the total ridership of Amtrak LD, tourists are not even close to being a majority or even plurality. The LDs serve a very significant transportation function for people traveling from an intermediate stop A to an intermediate stop B, and also end point to intermediate stop A, typically by Coach, and the idea of taking short turn Sleeper trips is also catching on quite a bit.
 
Are you kidding? There is LD in Europe that is very similar to Amtrak's LD - The Trans-Siberian Railroad! :D

Ok... Maybe not. Does it run on time?
Except that Siberia is mostly in Asia :p Of course the 1/2 Rossiya does run part ofits journey through Europe too.

But you are correct in general. There are numerous express trains that run west of the Urals, but tend to be mostly of the the New York to Chicago or New Orleans variety of trains rather than the Chicago to San Francisco variety. Still the Moscow - Ekaterinberg or Moscow - Volgograd trains have relatively lengthy trips.

There are several overnight expresses that run out of Moscow Oktyubrskaya (formerly Lingradski) to the north - several to St. Petersburg, at least one to Murmansk, and one to Helsinki (Finland) and some to the Baltics and Kaliningrad. Similarly the overnight trains to Beylorus and on to Warsaw (does that still run?) and from Kyevsii to Ukraine are quite a few and well patronized.

So far I have taken the Leo Tostoy which runs overnight from Helsinki to Moscow and back.
 
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The writer is more or less correct about the NEC operations and more or less wrong about the demographics of who rides the LD trains. Just IMHO of course.
IMHO, your humble opinion is usually accurate. :lol:
I agree with you regarding the "rail tour" old wives' tale. But when he says

As, at best, these routes offer a daily train, they do not provide a genuine train service that can be used as an alternative to the car for local people.
it sounds like he is describing commuters. In that case he is right.
 
Actually I just came home from a Berlin-Copenhagen run today :rolleyes:

But I can't help chipping in my impressions of the little I have ridden Amtrak and from the discussions here, seen here from Denmark (which does not have the best or the best run railroads around in comparison to some of the neighbors).

As for the layout of the Amtrak network there are good reasons that it is different to Europe. But as for solving as many transportation needs for as many people as possible I do think that there is too much emphasis on the LD's and too little on developing feasible corridors. The PRIIA policy change of dumping them 100 % on the states does not help this. Ideally an LD forming a spine for supplementary corridor services on the stretches where it is feasible, is probably a model worth exploring. Virginia, Illinois and a few other states seem to have done this pretty successfully, but there are many more options. On the other hand keeping up the whole system to run the SSL three times a week across thousands of miles seems like a good way of spending a lot of money without getting that much for them.

But actually the article has more beef with operating practices, and honestly some of the Amtrak practices do seem archaic and wasteful.

Myself I have only ridden the Cascades a couple of times, but I was pretty shocked over the level of staffing. For example in Portland, which I think handles 9 departures a day I saw a staffing of 6: Two for the ticket counters, two for checking and loading bagage, and two for operating the gates. Add red caps and others I didn't see. For comparison the airport station when I got back to Copenhagen had a total staffing of four ticket agents. This is a station handling about 16 regional, intercity and international trains an hour (it is the last station before the Swedish border) as well as sell tickets for and give info on the metro. All handled in several languages to passengers, who many of them have just landed and are unfamiliar with the local system, plus handling the ticketing systems of two different countries.

Now the agents were pretty busy, but lines were no longer than bearable. On the other hand noone in Portland was busy, except maybe the ticket checkers at the gates just before departure, but for whom I saw absolutely no reason for being there. Get an electronic reservation system, so people know their coach and seat numbers and an electronic info system showing which cars will park where on the platform. At larger stations put an info person out there. No need to spend manpower on hearding the passengers around like goats.

I realise that checked bagage is probably more needed for the LD's. In several countries in Europe it died altogether... But again - two guys largely with their hands in their pockets - there might be a more efficient way of organising that on a not that heavily traveled station. Why can't the ticket counter receive the luggage airport style? And does it need to be free also for short distance passengers?

Here only a few of the largest stations actually still have ticket counters. Medium sized ones will have contracted it out to the convenience store in the station, where the staff will be trained in performing all usual sales and reservations. No need to pay a separate agent, and the need is dwindling as more and more ticket sales move to the internet.

Which brings me to the absurdity of having staffed stations for sometimes well under 100 passengers and two trains a day. Yes, service and security are issues, but I have heard very little in terms of creative solutions. If you need a guard hire a security company around departures. Get the local florist across the road to sell tickets for a modest fee - whatever, but all with a sharp eye on cost per passenger. A full time agent sitting there is very costly.

And again - get an electronic reservation system, so people get their seat as they book the ticket. It can be set up to make the reservations largely the same way as the conductor distributes the passengers today. My trip from Berlin was a three seat ride (there are direct trains, but I was to late to get tickets for that at a decent price). The electronic ticket was issued with seat and coach numbers for all three, and the conducter then had a portable device that let him check my credit card to verify the printout of tickets and reservations. (you can choose other ID too). When I missed a connection in Hamburg because of a delay, rebooking was troublefree.

In summary - I think that Amtrak runs a pretty good and pretty indispenable service, given the funding constrants, but that there is a lot of do-as-we-always-did and it seems like noone is doing any systematic combing through of practices asking if the solutions are still the most practical and economical in 2011. :help:

A few other notes: Granny visiting the grandkids, students going home from college or families going to Disneyworld are transportation needs too - even if Amtrak outside the NEC is not of much use to most business travellers. Providing transportation alternatives for people who can't or don't like to drive long distances for whatever the reason is very important.

As for European LD's two things have happended: Exept for Russia and closest neighbors air travel has eaten away the passenger base of the longest routes - not just because of neglect, but simply because planes are more competitive. On the other hand on the medium distances the opposite has happened, as speeds and services has gotten better, in many corridors. And the European rail companies - and the politicians behind them - have put the emfasis on expanding the service, where the competitive edge is. And rightly so. There is no general decline in the cross border traffic either - in many places it is strengthening, with the very rapid growth traffic on the bridge to Sweden from here in DK as a prime example. It is just the very long runs through a multitude of countries that has gotten fewer.
 
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