Viewliner II Uses

Now that we know the Viewliner II order is in fact a reality and the cars are being produced, we can begin speculating where the diners and sleepers will end up.

Diners: Currently I figure Amtrak needs 15 diners:

LSL: 3 cars

Crescent: 4 cars

Silver Star: 4 cars

Silver Meteor: 4 cars

Total: 15 cars. I may be wrong on this as I am not sure if the LSL requires 3 or 4 trainsets.

Anyway with 26 new diners coming on-board where will the new ones go? Will the Cardinal get one? Even with the Cardinal going daily and using 4 cars, that would still leave 7 spares. Any other thoughts on this?

Sleepers: In last months Trains, Fred Frailey had a piece regarding the PRIIA program that came out regarding LD trains several years ago. He went over issues that have been accomplished, issues that have not and probably never will be accomplished, and issues that still can be accomplished.

Under the issues that can still be accomplished, he mentioned the Pennsylvanian/Capitol combination in Pittsburgh. Since there will be additional sleepers, I see this as having a good chance of being implemented. Does anyone have any recent info on this situation? I know NS was going to have to put in a new switch at Pittsburgh to facilitate the switching. Is this still in the works.

He also mentioned adding capacity on the Crescent north of Atlanta. Would this be a place for an additional sleeper?

Putting a sleeper back on 66/67, adding one more to the LSL?

What does everybody think and know?

fulham said:

Anyway with 26 new diners coming on-board where will the new ones go? Will the Cardinal get one? Even with the Cardinal going daily and using 4 cars, that would still leave 7 spares. Any other thoughts on this?

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Quick comment: the 3 day a week Cardinal takes 2 trainsets. A daily Cardinal would need 3 trainsets, according to the PRIIA PIP report on the Cardinal.
While Amtrak will have 25+1 diners, it will also have 25 baggage-dorms. So Amtrak could support 19, maybe 20, LD single level trainsets, depending on how many stand-by spares they want to have plus 1-2 out for maintenance, inspection, overhaul cycles. Think of the 8400 as providing an extra spare for the diners, which are likely to require more maintenance or have equipment problems (has a kitchen of appliances that can fail) than a bag-dorm.

The constraint in the near future will be LD coach cars. Only 120 Amfleet II coach cars available.

Keep in mind there are some areas where there are likely to be some changes. There are rumors floating that 89 & 90 will come back to Miami, most likely with a Diner, Sleepers, and Dorm. That will require four sets of equipment for that run. Now, if you rewind ten years and look at equipment utilization, the Meteor only required three sets since the 98 that was inbound in the morning turned to be that night's 97. Also rumored to be getting a Diner and Dorm is the Cardinal. So that would give you:

• Meteor - 3 sets
• Star - 4 sets
• Palm - 4 sets
• Crescent - 4 sets
• Lake Shore - 3 sets
• Cardinal - 2 sets

Assuming the schedules work out right you'd need 20 sets up from the current 17, which still leaves a spare Diner and Dorm available in New York, Chicago, and Miami plus 2 Dorms and 3 Diners in PM cycles. Additionally, since the Crew Dorms will have 8 roomettes if necessary a standard sleeper could easily be substituted for it. As for the coach issue if you switch the Pennsylvanian onto an all Amfleet I consist there is no net change in the number of Amfleet II coaches needed for service. Amfleet II cafes shouldn't be an issue since there are 25 of those in the fleet already.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cardinal and New York side of the LSL receive a Dorm and have their full size baggage car taken away. The New York side definitely doesn't need it if you leave the Boston side with the full baggage car as it would only have NYPs bags in it to/from Albany. As for the Cardinal only seven stations off of the NEC have baggage service available, so the volume of bags (theoretically) can't be that high that there is the demand necessary for a full baggage car.

Has there been any discussion of returning a sleeper to the overnight NE Regional train?

NorthCoastHiawatha said:

Has there been any discussion of returning a sleeper to the overnight NE Regional train?

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Yes, that has been reported as in the plans once the full set of new sleepers has been delivered. But Amtrak is getting only 25 new sleepers, not an endless supply. With a 80% use rate, that means 20 additional sleepers can be added to the consists. Have to play the sleeper allocation numbers game however if the run-through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited takes place, Cardinal gets 2 sleepers & eventually goes daily, and additional cars are add to the Star, Crescent, maybe the Meteor and/or LSL?

battalion51 said:

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cardinal and New York side of the LSL receive a Dorm and have their full size baggage car taken away. The New York side definitely doesn't need it if you leave the Boston side with the full baggage car as it would only have NYPs bags in it to/from Albany. As for the Cardinal only seven stations off of the NEC have baggage service available, so the volume of bags (theoretically) can't be that high that there is the demand necessary for a full baggage car.

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Why would any of the eastern overnight LD trains, other than the LSL Boston section, get a full baggage car? Except maybe at peak holiday periods for the Florida bound Silvers? The baggage half of the Viewliner II baggage-dorm cars should have a lot of interior space for storage. Hopefully some pics will show up from the media event of the interiors of a baggage-dorm car so we can see the layout.

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I assume that the 55 full baggage cars are enough to replace the heritage bag cars used on the Superliner LD trains (and whatever midwest service uses the full bag cars)?

Fan Railer said:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I assume that the 55 full baggage cars are enough to replace the heritage bag cars used on the Superliner LD trains (and whatever midwest service uses the full bag cars)?

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I believe so, there are around 60 heritage baggage (including the 1700 series converted from heritage coaches). With the the number of baggage-dorms and full baggages, there will be more than enough to go around. No midwest trains use baggage cars beyond the cabbages.

battalion51 said:

Keep in mind there are some areas where there are likely to be some changes. There are rumors floating that 89 & 90 will come back to Miami, most likely with a Diner, Sleepers, and Dorm. That will require four sets of equipment for that run. Now, if you rewind ten years and look at equipment utilization, the Meteor only required three sets since the 98 that was inbound in the morning turned to be that night's 97. Also rumored to be getting a Diner and Dorm is the Cardinal. So that would give you:

• Meteor - 3 sets
• Star - 4 sets
• Palm - 4 sets
• Crescent - 4 sets
• Lake Shore - 3 sets
• Cardinal - 2 sets

Assuming the schedules work out right you'd need 20 sets up from the current 17, which still leaves a spare Diner and Dorm available in New York, Chicago, and Miami plus 2 Dorms and 3 Diners in PM cycles. Additionally, since the Crew Dorms will have 8 roomettes if necessary a standard sleeper could easily be substituted for it. As for the coach issue if you switch the Pennsylvanian onto an all Amfleet I consist there is no net change in the number of Amfleet II coaches needed for service. Amfleet II cafes shouldn't be an issue since there are 25 of those in the fleet already.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Cardinal and New York side of the LSL receive a Dorm and have their full size baggage car taken away. The New York side definitely doesn't need it if you leave the Boston side with the full baggage car as it would only have NYPs bags in it to/from Albany. As for the Cardinal only seven stations off of the NEC have baggage service available, so the volume of bags (theoretically) can't be that high that there is the demand necessary for a full baggage car.

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If 89 & 90 do return to Miami what would that schedule look like? And will service ever return to the S-Line in Florida?

Fan Railer said:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I assume that the 55 full baggage cars are enough to replace the heritage bag cars used on the Superliner LD trains (and whatever midwest service uses the full bag cars)?

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The consist numbers have been added up before and, yes, 55 baggage cars is enough for the current fleet. Don't forget the Palmetto, Carolinian, #66/#67 have baggage cars as well. There has been discussion here (aka speculation) that an additional daytime Regional may get a baggage car as the new cars will be able to run at 125 mph. Once the new Customs facility opens in Montreal (I think it is when, not if), could add a baggage car to the Adirondack for the NYP-MTR travelers.

There are currently 66 baggage cars on Amtrak's roster.

55 bags and 25 bag-dorms will replace them all easily.

As will the 25 diners to replace the 20 currently on the roster.

Not having a full baggage car on the Silvers, Crescent, and one side of the LSL would probably best be described as a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea. Do the math, if you've got 300 passengers on board, each allowed two pieces of checked luggage, (controlling for folks getting on and off at unstaffed stations, and not checking bags) you've conservatively got 300 pieces of luggage up there and about 400 square feet or so to work with. Assuming each bag is 2' x 1.5' (about the size of a rolling bag most people would carry), that's 3 square feet of space per bag so call that 900 square feet of space you need. Of course you can stack bags, but you've also got 20 separate piles you need to make for the various station stops along the way so that everything goes where it needs to go. And guess what, they just showed up with a palate and a bike that both need to get off halfway through the trip (at different stations of course)! Don't forget you also have to be able to walk through this car too so you can work the stations, move bags, and of course climb down to flag a crossing or throw a switch...

battalion51 said:

Additionally, since the Crew Dorms will have 8 roomettes if necessary a standard sleeper could easily be substituted for it.

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Not that it changes your utilization numbers in any way, but the crew dorms will have 9 roomettes.

battalion51 said:

Not having a full baggage car on the Silvers, Crescent, and one side of the LSL would probably best be described as a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea. Do the math, if you've got 300 passengers on board, each allowed two pieces of checked luggage, (controlling for folks getting on and off at unstaffed stations, and not checking bags) you've conservatively got 300 pieces of luggage up there and about 400 square feet or so to work with. Assuming each bag is 2' x 1.5' (about the size of a rolling bag most people would carry), that's 3 square feet of space per bag so call that 900 square feet of space you need. Of course you can stack bags, but you've also got 20 separate piles you need to make for the various station stops along the way so that everything goes where it needs to go. And guess what, they just showed up with a palate and a bike that both need to get off halfway through the trip (at different stations of course)! Don't forget you also have to be able to walk through this car too so you can work the stations, move bags, and of course climb down to flag a crossing or throw a switch...

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The new baggage cars, both bag-dorms and full bags, will have modular shelving units installed. The dorm/bag will have 7 such units, plus 1 bike rack unit. The full bags would have 15 shelving units and 1 bike unit. The days of piling bags on the floor of the cars is over.

It is my understanding that all eastern LD's will get the dorm/bag cars. Full bags will go to the other trains.

Good to know. Seems like 8 would be the maximum you'd need (2 LSAs, 2 Servers, Chef, 3 Coach Attendants during heavy loads), but I guess if you ever get Trainees or a Manager traveling it'd be good to have that 9th room.

fulham said:

Now that we know the Viewliner II order is in fact a reality and the cars are being produced, we can begin speculating where the diners and sleepers will end up.

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First comment: Amtrak has a preferred ratio of spares. I believe that for each type of car, Amtrak likes to have spares equal to roughly 20% of the fleet (correct me if I'm wrong), so that every car can rotate into the maintenance shops on a good rotation -- if you read the monthly reports, it's been hard getting Amfleet IIs into the shops for maintenance because they're constantly working. I don't know whether the 20% number includes the "protect cars" which are stationed at terminals like Chicago and NY in case a car fails just before departure. I would appreciate clarification on this.

In order to speculate on car assignments, the first thing to do is to figure out how many are going to be in the shop at any given time, how many will be acting as "protect" cars, etc. I haven't been able to make good predictions because I haven't been able to figure this out.

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Second comment: as others have said, a bag-dorm is not going to be able to carry the baggage for the LSL to/from NY on peak days (such as around Thanksgiving). It just won't. Even with the shelving. Even with the fact that the new cars are longer than the old baggage car. On peak days, the baggage from New York will exceed the bag-dorm's capacity. If the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited run-through cars are implemented *and* a baggage car is run through that way, that would probably bleed off enough of the traffic to make it possible. Otherwise, I would expect a bag-dorm off-peak, and a bag-dorm plus baggage car on peak days.

I don't know about the Silver Service and the Crescent since I haven't observed their baggage loads personally. However, I would be unsurprised to see a couple of baggage cars at NYP being shifted around between trains as the seasons change, in order to handle "peak" baggage.

The other thing to think about is that I've seen very limited usage of the *Boston* baggage car on the Lake Shore Limited. (Don't ask me why people going to New York take more baggage than people going to Boston; I have no idea.) It might make more sense to assign a bag-dorm to *that* end of the train, though that raises complex crew allocation questions.

To help those trying to calculate things, here is the current OOS for the existing 50 Viewliner sleepers. You should be able to extrapolate from this to see how it affects things going forward with 75 sleepers. And of course the same inspection rules apply to the diners too.

• At any given moment, 3 sleepers are OOS for their 92 day inspections. That inspection requires 3 days OOS for each car.
• At any given moment, 2 sleepers are OOS for their annual inspections and refurb work. The inspection requires 2 weeks, hence the 2 per week to get all 50 done in 50 weeks.
• Wreck repairs can change the above.
• Under the old plan, there was supposed to be 1 protect sleeper in Hialeah, Sunnyside, and Chicago. Rarely did CHI ever have one though. My understanding is that they'd like to increase both Hialeah & Sunnyside up to 2 protects with the new cars.

It is possible that you could send the Dorm to Boston on the basis that the Crew will not have any sleeping hours based on the times that they would be without the Dorm and they should be tending to their duties, not in their rooms. It becomes the standard practice for the crew members to vacate their rooms before Albany, and it becomes a non-issue.

Nathanael said:

In order to speculate on car assignments, the first thing to do is to figure out how many are going to be in the shop at any given time, how many will be acting as "protect" cars, etc. I haven't been able to make good predictions because I haven't been able to figure this out.

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Your post came a minute too early, as I was detailing that even as you were posting. But the answer is now at hand.

Nathanael said:

Second comment: as others have said, a bag-dorm is not going to be able to carry the baggage for the LSL to/from NY on peak days (such as around Thanksgiving). It just won't. Even with the shelving. Even with the fact that the new cars are longer than the old baggage car. On peak days, the baggage from New York will exceed the bag-dorm's capacity. If the Pennsylvanian/Capitol Limited run-through cars are implemented *and* a baggage car is run through that way, that would probably bleed off enough of the traffic to make it possible. Otherwise, I would expect a bag-dorm off-peak, and a bag-dorm plus baggage car on peak days.

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Unlikely with the changed rules on the number of checked bags one can have and the loss of almost all freight being moved in those cars. These days the bag simply isn't that full, especially with 2 baggage cars on the train. And the shelving units will make the difference.

battalion51 said:

Good to know. Seems like 8 would be the maximum you'd need (2 LSAs, 2 Servers, Chef, 3 Coach Attendants during heavy loads), but I guess if you ever get Trainees or a Manager traveling it'd be good to have that 9th room.

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Well the LSL needs that extra room, and then as you note, on other runs it becomes an open room for Amtrak employees traveling on company business.

Huh. Actually, think

AlanB said:

To help those trying to calculate things, here is the current OOS for the existing 50 Viewliner sleepers. You should be able to extrapolate from this to see how it affects things going forward with 75 sleepers. And of course the same inspection rules apply to the diners too.

• At any given moment, 3 sleepers are OOS for their 92 day inspections. That inspection requires 3 days OOS for each car.
• At any given moment, 2 sleepers are OOS for their annual inspections and refurb work. The inspection requires 2 weeks, hence the 2 per week to get all 50 done in 50 weeks.
• Wreck repairs can change the above.
• Under the old plan, there was supposed to be 1 protect sleeper in Hialeah, Sunnyside, and Chicago. Rarely did CHI ever have one though. My understanding is that they'd like to increase both Hialeah & Sunnyside up to 2 protects with the new cars.

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Thanks. This indicates (calculating...) that each car will be OOS for a minimum of 26 days per year, or 7.1% of the time. But I think Amtrak probably wants to have more than 7.1% spares (even before accounting for protect cars), because sometimes you need to do unexpected or non-routine maintenance....

AlanB said:

Unlikely with the changed rules on the number of checked bags one can have and the loss of almost all freight being moved in those cars. These days the bag simply isn't that full, especially with 2 baggage cars on the train. And the shelving units will make the difference.

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Hmm. I'm still suspicious. And I'm thinking about why. I believe it's because there are only two links between Chicago and the East Coast, and they carry all the connections. So, increased baggage (or freight!) loads pretty much anywhere in the system are likely to mean increased baggage loads on the Capitol Limited and/or the Lake Shore Limited from NY. The role as a link means that it's dangerous to not have enough cars for the baggage load, as it can clog up baggage moves from California to Florida.
Of course, Amtrak will have a lot more baggage cars when the new order is done (14 more, even if all the Heritage cars are retired immediately). And it should be obvious well before departure at Chicago (eastbound) or NY (westbound) if there's going to be too much baggage that day; it won't be something which "shows up" mid-route. So if I'm right, Amtrak can always tack on an extra car on the rare days when it's needed. Hooray for trains, which do not have to have fixed consists.

The October 2001 schedule for the Silver Palm was:

southbound - depart NYP 0745 arrive MIA 1210

northbound - depart MIA 1700 arrive NYP 2108.

Note that these are somewhat different from the current 89/90 schedule between SAV and NYP. No one knows for certain what the schedule would be. Slots at NYP are a factor in the southbound departure, or so I've read. Spacing relative to 79 would be another factor. Perhaps 89/90 would serve Tampa like 91/92 do.

I think there is little likelihood that the S-line in Florida will ever see an Amtrak train again.

xyzzy said:

I think there is little likelihood that the S-line in Florida will ever see an Amtrak train again.

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Agreed. Not with CSX having sold away the A-line to Sunrail. The only way that I could even imagine Amtrak back on the S-line would be if Amtrak, the Fed, the State, some combination of those, or some other generous benefactor pays to double track the entire S-line. And I can just imagine the howls of protest from the Nimby's if they try.

A lot of the S-Line is being double tracked because of the new intermodal facility CSX is building in Winter Haven. I'm sure there is room for 2 trains a day, but we all know how these things go with the host railroads (ex- UP and a daily Sunset). It's too bad to. The S-Line has Waldo (Gainesville/UF), Ocala, and Wildwood (The Villages retirement community). I'd think a day train between Jax-Ocala-Tampa-Miami would be quite popular, but we're still waiting on Amtrak to operate on the FEC.