Viewliner II Uses

[afigg]

What exactly do the Indiana Gateway projects entail? Are they being done in the vacinity of Porter, IN, and who is paying for them? Once these are completed, will NS be anymore receptive to additional trains on the Chicago - Cleveland corridor?

The $71 million Indiana Gateway project consists of - according to the summary of the 2009 stimulus application - 8 track projects from the Indiana/Illinios state line to just east of Porter, IN. Quoting from the application: "Improvements include: Relocation, reconfiguration, and addition of high-speed crossovers and related signal system improvements, minor rail line additions at two locations achieved by lengthening and rehabilitation of existing sidings, and the creation of a new parallel passing siding."

So it is a series of smaller projects to reduce congestion and improve the on-time performance of the passenger trains. The primary justification for the grant is presumably the Michigan service trains, not so much the LSL and CL. As to whether it would allow for more passenger trains, those would probably go to additional Michigan service frequencies. While a Chicago to Cleveland daytime corridor train would be a worthwhile addition, any such proposal would get short thrift with Ohio's current Governor. Additional east coast to Chicago LD trains? Not until Amtrak gets more money and support from Congress for the LD trains.

 

[Woody]

What exactly do the Indiana Gateway projects entail?

... and who is paying for them?

This is a Stimulus-funded project. The money

has to be spent by Sept of next year.

So you can thank Obama. And be assured

that the powers that be in Indianapolis were

generous not to block the project simply

because Obama was for it.

 

[Woody]

What exactly do the Indiana Gateway projects entail?

I should have said, ain't much.

The stated aim is to "reduce congestion" and

iirc to raise the average speed from less than

45 mph to more than 45 mph, but not by

as much as 10 mph faster. (Yawn.)

If we're lucky the On Time Performance figure

will improve.

The State of Michigan DOT is studying this

"South of the Lake" section for improvements

to link its 110-mph section with Union Station.

Just beginning this work, which could include

a new route, and so, new environmental studies

and the whole 9 yards. Then it will need a billion

dollars or more to get something to happen.

 

[afigg]

This is a Stimulus-funded project. The money has to be spent by Sept of next year.

The deadline for spending the $8 billion in stimulus funding for the High Speed and Intercity Passenger Rail program is September 30, 2017 (end of FY2017). Which is driving the big push in the schedules to complete the track improvements projects in 2015 and 2016 with some projects likely burning remaining funds right up to the deadline in 2017. The stimulus deadline is a major reason why we will see a wave of upgrades, reduced trip times, service expansions, project completions, delivery of the corridor bi-levels coming to pass in 2016 and 2017.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Trains News Wire EXCLUSIVE: A closer look at the new Viewliner IIPassenger columnist Bob Johnston shares his impressions of
Amtrak's newest cars with Trains News Wire
By Bob Johnston
Published: November 1, 2013
http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2013/11/A%20closer%20look%20at%20the%20new%20Viewliner%20II.aspx

This is a Readers Only article, and I'm not a subscriber.

But perhaps a subscriber could go beyond the pay wall

and bring back a few items of interest. Not so much as

to violate copyright, but a few quoted paragraphs and

a bit of paraphrase could add to our information here.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

"Trains News Wire EXCLUSIVE" tag just means a reporter work on the story. If the exclusive tag is missing it just a cut and paste story.

.

 

[jis]

This is a Readers Only article, and I'm not a subscriber.

But perhaps a subscriber could go beyond the pay wall

and bring back a few items of interest. Not so much as

to violate copyright, but a few quoted paragraphs and

a bit of paraphrase could add to our information here.

There are some interesting details which may not have been as prominently presented elsewhere. Here are some tidbits that caught my attention, though there is no guarantee that all this has not appeared elsewhere before.
1. The Baggage cars and the Baggage end of the Bag-Dorms have heavier duty suspension colored indicated with red color applied to the springs. Normal springs in other trucks are colored blue.

2. In the Sleepers, the refreshment station is between the Roomette and Bedroom section instead of at the end of the car.

3. The Bag-Dorm cars contain nine crew roomettes, two bathrooms, and a shower in one half of the car.

4. The Baggage cars have heated doors and walls, and the end doors are sealed against the elements. So no more bags bathed in blizzard of snow entering from the end doors.

5. Bike racks with room for 16 on full Baggage cars and 8 on Bag Dorms. No special arrangement for pets yet.

6. Dining Cars are now equipped with food storage units similar to those in Acelas.

7. First 8 cars will undergo field tests over the entire network in Spring 2014. Not clear why the Sleepers and Diners would test over Superliners only part of the network unless there is some secret that has not been mentioned yet.

8. Starting Summer 2014 Baggage cars and Diners will start entering service, followed by Bag-Dorms, with Sleepers coming in in 2015.

 

[battalion51]

7. First 8 cars will undergo field tests over the entire network in Spring 2014. Not clear why the Sleepers and Diners would test over Superliners only part of the network unless there is some secret that has not been mentioned yet.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the goal is to get feedback from employees in the various crafts (Mechanical, OBS, T&E, etc.). If that's the case its possible that an employee based in LA might have some feedback that someone on the east coast might not have thought of. Maybe there's an element from the Superliners that was borrowed, but that employee has experienced an issue with it, whereas an employee based in New York wouldn't have had that experience since they primarily work with the single level fleet.

 

[Nathanael]

There are some interesting details which may not have been as prominently presented elsewhere. Here are some tidbits that caught my attention, though there is no guarantee that all this has not appeared elsewhere before.

1. The Baggage cars and the Baggage end of the Bag-Dorms have heavier duty suspension colored indicated with red color applied to the springs. Normal springs in other trucks are colored blue.

Interesting.

2. In the Sleepers, the refreshment station is between the Roomette and Bedroom section instead of at the end of the car.

Makes sense.

3. The Bag-Dorm cars contain nine crew roomettes, two bathrooms, and a shower in one half of the car.

Nine. Nine! That's one more than the LSL staff, isn't it? Now, how many luggage racks are in a bag-dorm? I'm still trying to figure out whether Amtrak has underprovisioned luggage space for the east coast trains.

4. The Baggage cars have heated doors and walls, and the end doors are sealed against the elements. So no more bags bathed in blizzard of snow entering from the end doors.

5. Bike racks with room for 16 on full Baggage cars and 8 on Bag Dorms. No special arrangement for pets yet.

6. Dining Cars are now equipped with food storage units similar to those in Acelas.

7. First 8 cars will undergo field tests over the entire network in Spring 2014. Not clear why the Sleepers and Diners would test over Superliners only part of the network unless there is some secret that has not been mentioned yet.

8. Starting Summer 2014 Baggage cars and Diners will start entering service, followed by Bag-Dorms, with Sleepers coming in in 2015.

It stings to have to wait three *more* months to see them in use -- this implies that the first deployment will be as late as July. The bag-dorms probably won't start showing up until after Thanksgiving 2015. Well, better late than never.

 

[battalion51]

There's probably a few reasons they went with nine rooms. Think about this crew composition:

• 2 LSAs
• 2 Waiters
• 3 Coach Attendants
• 1 Chef

That puts you at eight people, throw a trainee or a manager in there and you're at nine. At least this way you've always got room for a trainee or manager based on that crew composition, without having to block out revenue space.

 

[Blackwolf]

There's probably a few reasons they went with nine rooms. Think about this crew composition:

• 2 LSAs
• 2 Waiters
• 3 Coach Attendants
• 1 Chef

That puts you at eight people, throw a trainee or a manager in there and you're at nine. At least this way you've always got room for a trainee or manager based on that crew composition, without having to block out revenue space.

Not to mention, if the single level LD's ever get "Enhanced Dining Service" requiring one additional individual in the kitchen to wash dishes, that would mean that 9th room is used.

Hey, one can hope right?

 

[Anderson]

There's probably a few reasons they went with nine rooms. Think about this crew composition:

• 2 LSAs
• 2 Waiters
• 3 Coach Attendants
• 1 Chef

That puts you at eight people, throw a trainee or a manager in there and you're at nine. At least this way you've always got room for a trainee or manager based on that crew composition, without having to block out revenue space.

Not to mention, if the single level LD's ever get "Enhanced Dining Service" requiring one additional individual in the kitchen to wash dishes, that would mean that 9th room is used.

Hey, one can hope right?

I could see it happening under the right conditions. Let's face it, if Amtrak did a marketing study showing they could get an extra 10-20% in sleeper revenue on the Meteor amid a service expansion down to FL, I could see it. I could also see it on the LSL depending on how the Cap-Penny sleepers go. It really depends on what Amtrak would expect to be able to generate from it.

 

[rrdude]

How much would the 70 additional cars cost?

Roughly, 130 cars in this order for $300 million rounded = $1.3 each X 70 = $161 million.

How much would the 70 additional cars cost?

Roughly, 130 cars in this order for $300 million rounded = $1.3 each X 70 = $161 million.

Oops. A typo. Make that $2.3 million each. Still totals $161 million.
Sure seems we should go for the full option and 70 new cars,

or else expansion becomes very difficult. I'm looking for a day train

for Cleveland and Toledo. Surely I'm not the only one seeing Virginia's

planned train to Bristol gaining momentum toward Knoxville,

Chattanooga, Atlanta. And a baby Crescent down to Charlotte,

or even to Atlanta as a second frequency. We'd hate to wake up

and see a new Congress ready to do something, and find Amtrak

short a few diners and sleepers to make it go.

Of course, I know we badly need to start buying coaches.

If things work out that CAF wins the contract for Viewliner II coaches,

then I'm sure some friendly deal would allow future builds for not too

much money. Still, the nature of the assembly line is to set it up and

keep it going for maximum efficiency.

Oh how I'd love to see new coaches, with REAL BIG windows, and hey, why not put in an order for some REAL lounge cars too, not Snack-cars-in-a-tube

 

[fulham]

I think Amtrak might have another surprise when it comes to the deployment of the new cars. Look at the diners for example...There will be 26 available diners once all the new ones come on-line. Currently they need 15 for the single level LD trains. That leaves 11 spares which is way too many. The logical choice is the Cardinal, but does it go daily? Does Amtrak leave the Cardinal tri-weekly, but extend the Palmetto to Miami? If they do this, they will need 21 diners (current 15 plus 2 for the Cardinal and 4 for the Palmetto). The other option would be a single-level Capitol but then you have the question of enough LD coaches. It will be interesting to see what develops.

 

[jis]

As a first step, even if nothing gets extended, it is possible that two of the day medium distance trains Palmetto and one other could get a Diner used as a Cafe/lounge.

If the Palmetto gets extended to Florida, then my guess is that the Silver Service schedule will be re-jiggered so that only three additional consists will be needed, not four. Which means that it would still be feasible to make the Cardinal daily (needs three consists in all).

In addition the Pennsylvanian through running to Chicago could still happen using Amfleet II Dinette to cover the portion between New York and Pittsburgh, as planned in the PIP.

I suspect that there will be conversion of 5 to 10 Horizons back to LD configuration to make all this possible with adequate margins.

I don't think there will be any single level Cap. That is the prestige train for the muckity-muck to travel between HQ and Chicago.

 

[fulham]

As a first step, even if nothing gets extended, it is possible that two of the day medium distance trains Palmetto and one other could get a Diner used as a Cafe/lounge.

If the Palmetto gets extended to Florida, then my guess is that the Silver Service schedule will be re-jiggered so that only three additional consists will be needed, not four. Which means that it would still be feasible to make the Cardinal daily (needs three consists in all).

In addition the Pennsylvanian through running to Chicago could still happen using Amfleet II Dinette to cover the portion between New York and Pittsburgh, as planned in the PIP.

I suspect that there will be conversion of 5 to 10 Horizons back to LD configuration to make all this possible with adequate margins.

I don't think there will be any single level Cap. That is the prestige train for the muckity-muck to travel between HQ and Chicago.

I have thought about using the diners as cafe/lounges but seeing as they are being built and configured as diners, I think this would be tough. Currently the AmCafes are open pretty much all the time during the day and they are set up to serve passengers relatively efficiently...w/o reconfiguring the diners w/an open counter, etc. I think this could be a mistake. What I would hate to happen would be to take the AmCafe off the Palmetto, Carolinian, etc, replace it w/a new diner, and the crew treats it as diner...we are only open during meal times. On an all day LD train that would not be good. Think the "Cross-Country Cafe" fiasco.

 

[jis]

I have thought about using the diners as cafe/lounges but seeing as they are being built and configured as diners, I think this would be tough. Currently the AmCafes are open pretty much all the time during the day and they are set up to serve passengers relatively efficiently...w/o reconfiguring the diners w/an open counter, etc. I think this could be a mistake. What I would hate to happen would be to take the AmCafe off the Palmetto, Carolinian, etc, replace it w/a new diner, and the crew treats it as diner...we are only open during meal times. On an all day LD train that would not be good. Think the "Cross-Country Cafe" fiasco.

I agree that would be a disaster. What I had in mind for use on something like the Palmetto was to use the Diner equipment but run it like a cafe. I think the seating accommodation even with the tables is a damn site better in the Viewliner Diners than in Amtube Lounge that I have ever come across.

 

[Nathanael]

The "airline imitation" design of the Metroliners & Amfleets was actually pretty dumb, in retrospect. Was there any reason for it other than looks?

 

[Anderson]

When the Metroliners were run as EMUs, it was supposed to be more efficient (since you wouldn't have an engine in the way). I do not know if this actually proved to be the case. When the Metroliners were replaced by Amfleets, this advantage was lost since you needed an engine on the front...but the Metroliners were both "shiny" and known to be capable of 125 MPH operation, so Amtrak imitated them with the exception of the MU capabilities.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

… perhaps a subscriber could go beyond the pay wall

and bring back a few items of interest.

There are some interesting details which may not have been

as prominently presented elsewhere. Here are some tidbits

that caught my attention, though there is no guarantee that

all this has not appeared elsewhere before.

1. The Baggage cars and the Baggage end of the Bag-Dorms have

heavier duty suspension colored indicated with red color applied

to the springs. Normal springs in other trucks are colored blue.

2. . . .

Thanks for this report, full of tidbits.

 

[Anderson]

As a first step, even if nothing gets extended, it is possible that two of the day medium distance trains Palmetto and one other could get a Diner used as a Cafe/lounge.

If the Palmetto gets extended to Florida, then my guess is that the Silver Service schedule will be re-jiggered so that only three additional consists will be needed, not four. Which means that it would still be feasible to make the Cardinal daily (needs three consists in all).

In addition the Pennsylvanian through running to Chicago could still happen using Amfleet II Dinette to cover the portion between New York and Pittsburgh, as planned in the PIP.

I suspect that there will be conversion of 5 to 10 Horizons back to LD configuration to make all this possible with adequate margins.

I don't think there will be any single level Cap. That is the prestige train for the muckity-muck to travel between HQ and Chicago.

Considering the sheer mass of endpoint traffic, I could see the Adirondack getting some sort of "enhanced cafe" that would have good CR. You've got so many passengers taking an 11-hour trip (that's not likely to go below 9 hours in the foreseeable future, even with the border stop getting moved to Gare Central) that there's room to sell food there. The Vermonter would be the other obvious choice, were it to be extended to Montreal: Between the mass of business the train apparently does south of SPG and the likely through business that a single-seat ride from WAS (and a more pleasant connection option from BOS than is currently doable on the Adirondack) seems inclined to attract, it's definitely a candidate as well.

 

[jis]

When the Metroliners were run as EMUs, it was supposed to be more efficient (since you wouldn't have an engine in the way). I do not know if this actually proved to be the case. When the Metroliners were replaced by Amfleets, this advantage was lost since you needed an engine on the front...but the Metroliners were both "shiny" and known to be capable of 125 MPH operation, so Amtrak imitated them with the exception of the MU capabilities.

of course the fact that Budd had a production line almost ready to go with that design and the fact that costs came in lower for that option possibly had nothing to do with the decision. The shiny part was important Juuust kidding!
The Amfleets do not even use the trucks that were used in the original Metroliners. The only thing that is the same is the body shell. They use Pioneer III trucks that came as it would appear, from the Commuter side of things at that time. Supposedly they were simpler, lighter and cheaper, but they also apparently are a ***** to maintain in good order. To see the difference check out the trucks under the cab cars on the Keystones. Those are the original Metroliner trucks - demotored.

For limited length 125 mph trains overall probably the locomotive solution has lower total cost of ownership and operation. The down side probably is lower acceleration.

 

[AlanB]

Now, how many luggage racks are in a bag-dorm? I'm still trying to figure out whether Amtrak has underprovisioned luggage space for the east coast trains.

There is room for 8 modular units in the bag end of the car; 7 of which will be shelving and the 8th is the bike unit.

 

[Nathanael]

I suspect that there will be conversion of 5 to 10 Horizons back to LD configuration to make all this possible with adequate margins.

Thinking about "reuse of Horizons"...

Problems raised:

(1) The Horizons have manual doors, which is rumored to be undesirable on the NEC.

(2) The Horizons are supposedly not great in continuous winter conditions, and Amtrak wants to move them somewhere warmer -- which makes them unsuitable for the LSL.

Thinking about it, #1 is probably less important for long-distance train use, because dwell time on the long-distance trains on the NEC is apparently determined by baggage handling, and that probably gives adequate time to handle the manual doors.

Perhaps a "Silver Service pool" of "LD Horizons" could be created -- guaranteeing that they'll thaw out -- leaving Amfleets on the LSL and Cardinal. For this Amtrak would probably want to convert more than 5-10, but Amtrak will have a lot more than 5-10 available to convert.

Now, how many luggage racks are in a bag-dorm? I'm still trying to figure out whether Amtrak has underprovisioned luggage space for the east coast trains.

There is room for 8 modular units in the bag end of the car; 7 of which will be shelving and the 8th is the bike unit.

7 shelving units, 2 shelves each. This will do for lower-demand periods, but isn't nearly enough for peak baggage loads. Extra baggage cars *will* be attached during peak. Well, at least that explains why so many baggage cars were ordered.

 

[Ryan]

As you say, neither of those problems are really a big deal.

Horizon cars on the single level LD trains would be a pretty good use of them.