What exactly is Amtrak's damage with route planning?

[AmtrakBlue]

If the shortest route is not overnight, why would you put in a route that requires an overnight?

And would not a longer (needless) route be more expensive for Amtrak? So where would be the incentive.

To see parts of the country you've never seen before.

 

[niemi24s]

This is the image I attempted to include in Post #13 - but just ended up with a link to it. Some may find it useful (or not):

 

[KmH]

If the shortest route is not overnight, why would you put in a route that requires an overnight?

And would not a longer (needless) route be more expensive for Amtrak? So where would be the incentive.

That depends on how much longer a route, and what date you book the trip.

If I plan a trip that is long enough, I can board the CZ at OTM or OSC going westbound for the same senior discount price.

OSC is about 80 train miles west of OTM.

If I book a shorter trip, OTM to OSC costs me from $1 to $6 more, but to just go from OTM to OSC is $15 or so.

 

[tonys96]

Of course springing the overnight on them as a surprise in the middle of their trip would be a very dumb move. I thought that that went without saying.

But the system could easily inform the buyer at reservation time that their itinerary includes spending the night in an intermediate city.

People are illiterate idiots, and even if you put it in bold flashing letters wouldn't realize that they had an overnight layover. Not offering overnight connections is a good move, for those smart enough to realize it, there's the multi-city router. Doesn't help with AGR awards, but Amtrak's not in the business of enabling people crazy long redemptions.

Agreed. Most people want the shortest route, so putting that first is good. If the shortest route is not overnight, why would you put in a route that requires an overnight?

There may be a couple sales lot, but nowhere near how much ill will would be built when someone doesn't realize that they chose an overnight option and expects Amtrak to foot the bill.

I am not so sure. I have flown on several connecting routes with long layovers and have never expected the airline to foot the bill.

 

[neroden]

For reference, Amtrak's reservations system isn't quite run on steam power, but it does date from the early 1970s, and is basically unchanged since then. So that explains the sheer dreadfulness of its connection planning.

 

[PaulM]

And if "a regular passenger (or a first timer) wants to go from BHM to CHI and the Crescent and CONO come up, they may choose that, but when they get to NOL they're told they have to pay for the hotel. They may not be a very camper and say "Never again".

Are you serious. Not only have European RR's overcome this obstacle, but if someone is so inattentive that they don't observe the arrival and departure date of trains they book, or if they do, they are so naive as to think Amtrak will pay for a hotel, or if they think that and find out otherwise and still blame Amtrak, then maybe "never again" would be best for all concerned. They are a danger to themselves as well as the public.

It's not just the overnight question. It's publishing bizarre routings while omitting rational ones. I'll admit BHM to CHI via NOL would be a bit odd. For kicks, I checked BHM to Houston. Now the Crescent to Sunset Limit, overnight in NOL or not, does make some sense. But the only route that shows up goes via WAS and CHI, which makes for a great AGR trip, but not much else.

I agree with the OP's rant 100%.

 

[niemi24s]

The following marathon route from Post #19...

P.S.: If you really, truly wanted make an expedition out of getting from NYP to EMY (without going through the same place twice) book this - multi-city, of course: NYP, NHV, BOS, SPG, ALB, BUF, CLR, PGH, PHL, WAS, RVM, SSM, SAV, RGH, GRO, CVS, CHI, GFK, SPK, SEA, PDX, SAC, GBB, KCY, STL, FTW, SAS, LAX, EMY. Then there's the possibility of adding VIA Rail into the mix!

...contained three errors: CLR should be CLE; RGH should be CYN; it's not the longest one. The following is longer (all by train and without rolling over the same track twice) by 817 miles:



Is this a reasonable or rational route?

If AMTRAK's computer were perfected, would this route appear if only NYP and EMY were entered?

Is there an even lengthier route?

 

[willem]

Independently of this thread, I asked the Amtrak web site if I could get from Fargo to Chicago on February 21. It offered me the following possibility (after offering direct routing on 8 or 28).

3:30am - 10:10am (Feb 22)

32 hr, 40 min

27 Empire Builder

TRANSFER - PDX (4 hr, 15 min)

2:25pm - 5:09pm

2 hr, 44 min

3011 Thruway Bus

TRANSFER - EUG (0 hr, 1 min)

5:10pm - 6:15am (Feb 23)

13 hr, 5 min

11 Coast Starlight

TRANSFER - SAC (4 hr, 54 min)

11:09am - 2:50pm (Feb 25)

49 hr, 41 min

6 California Zephyr

 

[niemi24s]

As trains 8 and 28 are the same thing East of Spokane, you were offered only two choices: the logical direct one and the shortest alternate route. FWIW, there are at least 82 other alternate routes between Fargo and Chicago.

 

[niemi24s]

Oops!

Back in Post #19 I'd stated there were 150 possible routes from NYP to EMY - assuming I hadn't missed any. Well, I missed some. I found a much better way of analyzing these sorts of problems. Broke the problem down into two parts: NYP to CHI without going through NOL had 20 different routes; CHI to EMY (with NOL included) had 22 different routes.

The resulting total number of different rail routes (no buses and all within USA borders) between NYP and EMY without passing the same station twice is their product: 20 X 22 = 440.

P.S.: Working too late last night and neglected the other "half" of the routes from NYP to EMY: NYP to NOL without going through CHI had 16 different routes; NOL to EMY (OK to go through CHI) had 23 different routes. So the grand total using NOL as the hub is 16 X 23 = 368. And as these routes are all different than the other 440 (using CHI as the hub) the real grand total is 440 + 368 = 808 different routes between NYP and EMY. Never dreamed there'd be that may ways.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I agree that the average traveler is not going to expect to stay in a hotel overnight when booking a train trip.

However, I think the average traveler DOES expect to see layovers when connecting two legs of a journey. An easy way around this would be a box that's labeled "avoid any layovers longer than 12 hours," or something to that effect. By default, the box would be checked. Someone who really was poking around with the search could see that box and uncheck it, now knowing that they may have a layover that's possibly worth a hotel reservation.

Also, I only clicked on this thread because I haven't heard anyone use the phrase "What's your damage?" since the 1980s. I was disappointed to discover that this thread does not contain big hair, shoulder pads, or New Wave music of any kind.

 

[niemi24s]

Almost hate to admit, but more routes between NYP and EMY were discovered during a review this evening. The new total is now 1055 as outlined on this route map:

 

[Ryan]

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here.

I sure as hell don't want over 1,000 possible itineraries presented to me when I'm trying to book a trip.

 

[jebr]

There's a multi-city tab for a reason, after all.

 

[SarahZ]

Almost hate to admit, but more routes between NYP and EMY were discovered during a review this evening. The new total is now 1055 as outlined on this route map:

TotalNYPEMYRoutes.jpg

 

[niemi24s]

I sure as hell don't want over 1,000 possible itineraries presented to me when I'm trying to book a trip.

That was precisely my point: But if 1 is too few and 1000+ are too many, how many are sufficient? Tough question as it has no definite answer. I wasn't trying to ruffle anyone's feathers - just make known how many different routes there really were. More than I and perhaps others had previously thought.

 

[niemi24s]

Hello SarahZ:

Thanks for the cute cartoon in Post #40 showing (I think) skepticism. I'd be leery of such a bizarre claim too were I you. But in the process of making a copy of the flow chart used to figure out the Eastern part I discovered an error - there's only 25 different routes from NYP to CHI that don't go through NOL instead of 26. That reduces the total number of different routes from NYP to EMY down to a paltry 1033. Anyway, I finally got a flow chart neat enough to make a fairly decent scan:



The flow charts for the CHI-EMY and the NOL-EMY segments are similar. Anyway, this shows my method for finding these different routes. This one may still have errors. There may be better and easier ways to figure this stuff out, but I never went to graduate school.

Best Regards

 

[SarahZ]

It wasn't skepticism; it was shock.

 

[niemi24s]

Oh! OK, I can see that now. Anyway what's posted is posted, I guess. I'm kind of picky when it comes to things like that and if an error is made I feel obligated to correct it.

If anybody spots any errors on that chart I'd certainly appreciate hearing about it. Bear in mind those 46 routes are only the ones East of the Mississippi River. But in the grand scheme of things, none of that is particularly important. It's more trivia than anything else - and a good way to fritter away several hours.

 

[SarahZ]

Oh! OK, I can see that now. Anyway what's posted is posted, I guess. I'm kind of picky when it comes to things like that and if an error is made I feel obligated to correct it.

If anybody spots any errors on that chart I'd certainly appreciate hearing about it. Bear in mind those 46 routes are only the ones East of the Mississippi River. But in the grand scheme of things, none of that is particularly important. It's more trivia than anything else - and a good way to fritter away several hours.

I'm sorry about that. It's one of my favorite memes. I should have realized not everyone is familiar with it.

 

[benale]

The published AGR Routes are interesting. For example we are traveling from South Bend to San Luis Obispo on The Capitol Ltd and The Texas Eagle. Only itinerary to get to SLO from LAX is The Surfliner and a Thruway bus. Why don't they offer the more convenient Coast Starlight? When using the SW Chief they do offer the CS. I did talk to an agent and she let me change it. On our return we want to use the CS and The Empire Builder. That connection is allowed to Chicago,but not East of Chicago. However, when booking from PDX to SOB, AGR allows it. Why the discrepancy? There is a five hour window between he arrival of the EB before The Lake Shore Limited leaves. As of now we have to buy two coach tickets to get to SOB, and that should be included in a two zone reward.

 

[niemi24s]

A meme, huh? Wikipedia to the rescue again!

One of the more interesting areas of trackage I found doing that analysis was in North Carolina in the Greensboro (GRO) to Selma (SSM) area. On both the map in the big Amtrak route guide and the one I posted it shows up as a series of three junctions in an East-West direction in the form of an H with a central track to the South. None of those three junctions is in the form of a wye and that severely limits the way trains of any type can traverse that area. A crude schematic of that area looks like this...



...and explains why if you want the shortest possible train ride from, say, Savannah to Danville three different trains are involved. But that's silly - who on Earth would want to do that? :giggle:

 

[NW cannonball]

Apologize in advance for being a technonerd.

And I might be wrong.

BUT -- I think - the problem of finding all possible connections on published schedules is "NP-complete" or possibly less if the number of connections and departure times is small.

For big systems with small time constraints, like days almost certain that there are so many ways to get from A to B in the next week that no computer can possibly figure them all. Proven computational fact.

 

[SteveSFL]

So why can United, the worst of the worst airlines, present me routes that say "you are arriving chicago on June 15 and departing on June 16" or "you are arriving washington Dulles airport and departing Washington Reagan National airport" in big bold red letters, but Amtrak can't manage to point that out on an overnight connection in NOL much less offer other overnight connections. Are you overnight connection naysayers implying that airline travelers are more sophisticated than Amtrak travelers?

 

[jis]

United's IT infrastructure is light years ahead of Amtrak's. That is why.