Think AGR Will Give You The Very Last Room?

[Devil's Advocate]

So I was trying to actually book my big epic trip from SAS to SEA. I thought (apparently erroneously) that AGR would hand me the very last unoccupied room no matter what. But that does not appear to be the case. In my situation I'm joining the Coast Starlight at Sacramento. I wanted Emeryville but the lady insisted that's not possible. Anyway, everything was going fine up until this point. The Amtrak website shows this particular CS with at least SIX roomettes still available for the whole distance from LAX to SEA. However, from Sacramento to Seattle it shows zero. Zilch. Nada. And that's exactly what I got from AGR.

 

[AlanB]

Sounds like capacity controls are in place to keep some rooms available for those who want the full run. And in that case, there are no rooms from SAC to SEA, and therefore no "last room" to give to you.

However, it also sounds like you got either an new agent that doesn't know better or didn't want to be bothered looking into things. Because EMY is a valid transfer point. Additionally, I'm not sure about this, but it may be possible that if you get the right agent that they may be able to break the lock on the capacity controls. No promises though!

One other question, can you book LAX to SAC? I ask because I wonder if what's happening is not capacity control, but what happened to me once where there were no through rooms, but by changing rooms along the way I was able to still book my reservation.

Or you could ride the Chief to connect to the Starlight.

 

[MJL]

Sounds like it's time for agent roulette :giggle:

 

[PRR 60]

It looks like the magic break point is San Jose. As an example, for the August 17 northbound departure of the Coast Starlight, there is one roomette open to Seattle for departures from Los Angeles through San Jose. But, from Oakland onward, the site shows no room availability on the same train.

If I stretch my imagination, I can (sort of) see the sense of that for someone booking that train alone, but I see no sense or fairness in denying that room for someone connecting to the Starlight with a trip origination in San Antonio. SAS to SEA is hardly a short trip. The true end points should override any "short trip" contraints.

I wonder of it would be worth calling back one or more times until you get someone who lets logic and fairness prevail and will let you book an available room?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I could keep calling, that is true, but it takes quite a while to reach a human and then it takes a while longer to explain why I want to take the much longer route. Normally I'd try to change the days around but I have a pretty specific window in mind due to my job schedule. However, if I give up on the longer route and take the Sunset Limited to the Coast Starlight it still shows availability for a roomette. It's not nearly as much riding as a TE > CZ > CS trip would be but at least it's better than nothing. Maybe if a seventh roomette gets freed up on the CS I could exchange the SL > CS tickets for the TE > CZ > CS route? I have no idea what the rules are but it appears the website determines what they'll allow. If the website says no rooms are available then even a half-dozen empty roomettes won't help you much. Oh well, I guess it's my own fault for not reserving this much earlier.

 

[the_traveler]

Maybe it is different now, but a few years I went on the (infamous) SDL loophole!

Of the 4 trains, on 2 of them (CL and EB) I got the VERY LAST BEDROOM!

(In fact, on the CL all the bedrooms were sold out, but the Family Room was available. I got the Family Room!

)

 

[amamba]

Call back. Try booking to EMY and not SAC. Ask for a supervisor.

But at the end of the day, the AGR agents almost always say "we can only book the valid bookings from amtrak.com". So if there is a capacity control that doesn't allow booking from SAC to SEA, that is too bad, but it is what it is.

 

[sechs]

It looks like the magic break point is San Jose. As an example, for the August 17 northbound departure of the Coast Starlight, there is one roomette open to Seattle for departures from Los Angeles through San Jose. But, from Oakland onward, the site shows no room availability on the same train.

I looked at Chico to Seattle on the same date and found available rooms. My feeling is that these rooms are being held for a combination of connecting passengers at Emeryville, Oakland, and Sacramento; and expected traffic from the intermediate stations.

 

[rtabern]

Sounds like capacity controls are in place to keep some rooms available for those who want the full run. And in that case, there are no rooms from SAC to SEA, and therefore no "last room" to give to you.

However, it also sounds like you got either an new agent that doesn't know better or didn't want to be bothered looking into things. Because EMY is a valid transfer point. Additionally, I'm not sure about this, but it may be possible that if you get the right agent that they may be able to break the lock on the capacity controls. No promises though!

One other question, can you book LAX to SAC? I ask because I wonder if what's happening is not capacity control, but what happened to me once where there were no through rooms, but by changing rooms along the way I was able to still book my reservation.

Or you could ride the Chief to connect to the Starlight.

I am pretty sure they have capacity controls at some points on the Cardinal too. When the Great Dome was on there last fall, there was 1 room left on the westbound Cardinal (#51). If you wanted to book it from Charleston and points to the east you could -- however it would not let you book it west of Charleston. I mean if the room is open from NYP-CHI, it should be open from let's say CIN-CHI... however it wasn't... so obvious capacity management.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Sounds like capacity controls are in place to keep some rooms available for those who want the full run. And in that case, there are no rooms from SAC to SEA, and therefore no "last room" to give to you.

Just to make sure my head was on straight I did a quick Google search and came up with several posts where you're telling folks that AGR redemptions have no capacity controls beyond the standard blackout dates. I think we have a clear indication that AGR is probably bound by the same capacity controls as any other transaction at this point. In my case I was able to book a total of six roomettes from LAX > SEA right up until the payment screen but could not book even a single roomette from SAC or EMY to SEA. The AGR rep was proffering all sorts of illogical gibberish and when I politely asked to speak to a supervisor she insisted they'd be just as helpless as she was and declined to transfer me. I will give it one more shot later today just to see if I somehow get lucky, but I am not willing to beg for an exception that AGR has no interest in providing. How they run their program is up to them. How seriously I take it in the future is up to me. With the recent increases in base fares most of my trips are rising by about 50% on average. That's so far beyond cost competitiveness with any other transportation method that it effectively leaves AGR as the only reasonable form of payment at this point. If AGR redemptions become restricted to the point that a given train needs ten free rooms in order to release a single room to an AGR redemption then I may have to move along to other options. I don't know who all these $300 day trip people are but they're free to have my roomette if they really want it that badly. Oddly enough this seems to parallel some of the dissatisfaction in China. The trains are there but relatively few folks can afford to actually ride them. What makes our situation so much more absurd than China is that our trains are still just as slow and outdated as the trains of forty years ago. In some cases even slower. And yet Amtrak seems to be pricing them as if they were the latest 200MPH designs on dedicated tracks. I have no idea how they're able to pull that off but in the end it means I probably won't be among those riding them unless I happen to get an AGR trip work out for me.

 

[Shanghai]

I think the capacity controls or short distance restrictions mentioned here are similar to

the availability of short distance trips on long distance trains. For example, on the Cardinal,

Silvers, Carolinian and other trains, you cannot buy a ticket from NYP to any stations until ALX.

You may book trips on the Acela or Regional trains for the intermediate stops thereby reserving

the long distance trains for long distance passengers, hence higher revenue opportunities.

I'm not familiar with the West Coast trains, but perhaps there are regional type options available

in lieu of the Coast Starlight.

I think some trains utilize pricing options to encourage / discourage some ridership options.

I once booked a trip from Chicago to Austin, TX, then changed the destination to Dallas. The

trip to Dallas is about three hours shorter (and one meal)than Austin but the fare to Dallas

was about $80 more than Austin.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'll be on the Coast Starlight for roughly 21 hours. That's not a tiny segment in my view. And it's on the tail end of one hundred hours of active travel time. The capacity system seems to be setup to penalize folks transferring from the CZ to the CS since even if you managed to swing EMY you'd still fail to meet its requirements for opening up one of the six empty roomettes.

 

[Ryan]

Sounds like capacity controls are in place to keep some rooms available for those who want the full run. And in that case, there are no rooms from SAC to SEA, and therefore no "last room" to give to you.

Just to make sure my head was on straight I did a quick Google search and came up with several posts where you're telling folks that AGR redemptions have no capacity controls beyond the standard blackout dates. I think we have a clear indication that AGR is probably bound by the same capacity controls as any other transaction at this point. In my case I was able to book a total of six roomettes from LAX > SEA right up until the payment screen but could not book even a single roomette from SAC or EMY to SEA. The AGR rep was proffering all sorts of illogical gibberish and when I politely asked to speak to a supervisor she insisted they'd be just as helpless as she was and declined to transfer me. I will give it one more shot later today just to see if I somehow get lucky, but I am not willing to beg for an exception that AGR has no interest in providing. How they run their program is up to them. How seriously I take it in the future is up to me.

I think that you're missing the point - this has nothing at all to do with AGR.

 

[Ryan]

I am pretty sure they have capacity controls at some points on the Cardinal too. When the Great Dome was on there last fall, there was 1 room left on the westbound Cardinal (#51). If you wanted to book it from Charleston and points to the east you could -- however it would not let you book it west of Charleston. I mean if the room is open from NYP-CHI, it should be open from let's say CIN-CHI... however it wasn't... so obvious capacity management.

You are correct - for example if you're leaving from Chicago, you have to travel at least to Montgomery to get a bedroom:

I didn't notice any capacity controls on roomettes, but I only looked at travel starting at the endpoints, not at the midpoint. That'd actually be an interesting data point to look at starting at each stop to the train's endpoint (rather than the start point to each stop along the way that I did earlier).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think that you're missing the point - this has nothing at all to do with AGR.

I read multiple posts stating emphatically that AGR redemptions do not suffer from capacity controls. Here are a few with a quick search.

With an AGR award, as the_traveler noted, if there is a seat or a room still available and you call up, it's yours. Even if it is the very last seat/room on that day's train. The only exception to that rule is during the few blackout periods. Like you won't get an AGR award on Thanksgiving weekend for example.

&

When I book a roomette with points can I always get it if there is at least one room available? Regardless of the current price for this room?

That is correct, there are no capacity controls. If it's the last room on the train for that day and you call up, then it's yours. There are a few blackout dates to watch out for, but otherwise it's usually pretty easy to get a free room.

&

There are only a few blackout dates and no capacity controls. If it's the very last room on that days train when you call up, it's your room.

&

Yes, AGR is actually a pretty decent program overall. It has its flaws and pitfalls like any FF program, but when it comes to Amtrak travel its pretty generous. I especially like the limited blackout dates, and the fact that there are no capacity controls. If you call up today and it's the very last room on the train, it's still yours.

What point, exactly, was I missing there Ryan?

 

[Ryan]

The point is that all of those posts are saying that AGR does not impose any capacity controls.

That statement is true, because AMTRAK is the one imposing the capacity control. AGR isn't a magic "get around the rules" card to circumvent Amtrak's capacity controls.

Edit: Put another way - AGR will allow you to book any seat Amtrak sells via reward travel, but can't allow you to book a seat that Amtrak won't sell for cash. Your beef is with Amtrak, not AGR.

 

[Cristobal]

I think that you're missing the point - this has nothing at all to do with AGR.

I read multiple posts stating emphatically that AGR redemptions do not suffer from capacity controls. Here are a few with a quick search.

With an AGR award, as the_traveler noted, if there is a seat or a room still available and you call up, it's yours. Even if it is the very last seat/room on that day's train. The only exception to that rule is during the few blackout periods. Like you won't get an AGR award on Thanksgiving weekend for example.

&

When I book a roomette with points can I always get it if there is at least one room available? Regardless of the current price for this room?

That is correct, there are no capacity controls. If it's the last room on the train for that day and you call up, then it's yours. There are a few blackout dates to watch out for, but otherwise it's usually pretty easy to get a free room.

&

There are only a few blackout dates and no capacity controls. If it's the very last room on that days train when you call up, it's your room.

&

Yes, AGR is actually a pretty decent program overall. It has its flaws and pitfalls like any FF program, but when it comes to Amtrak travel its pretty generous. I especially like the limited blackout dates, and the fact that there are no capacity controls. If you call up today and it's the very last room on the train, it's still yours.

What point, exactly, was I missing there Ryan?

Perhaps the date of those posts? Those statements were all made before AGR was brought 'in-house' so there is a chance that some things are done differently now.

 

[Trogdor]

Perhaps the date of those posts? Those statements were all made before AGR was brought 'in-house' so there is a chance that some things are done differently now.

It would make no difference.

The others are correct. Someone from revenue management has put an inhibitor preventing the sale of certain segments/city pairs. That means, for the purposes of making a reservation, the capacity is zero.

The "no capacity controls" statement for AGR is in regards to available space (which is different from airlines, which often will have no award availability, but you're welcome to pay cash for the same ticket; the equivalent would be if Amtrak only allowed AGR awards for low-bucket space). In this case, availability has been set to 0, therefore, there is nothing to book, AGR or paid.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The point is that all of those posts are saying that AGR does not impose any capacity controls. That statement is true, because AMTRAK is the one imposing the capacity control. AGR isn't a magic "get around the rules" card to circumvent Amtrak's capacity controls. Edit: Put another way - AGR will allow you to book any seat Amtrak sells via reward travel, but can't allow you to book a seat that Amtrak won't sell for cash. Your beef is with Amtrak, not AGR.

At this point AGR is completely in-house, so while we can argue the semantics and technicalities all we want the distinction has no practical association. Not that different than what happened with the credit card discussion, only in reverse. :lol:

Perhaps the date of those posts? Those statements were all made before AGR was brought 'in-house' so there is a chance that some things are done differently now.

There were other posts making similar claims more recently but I actually agree with you 100%. My guess is that at one time AGR was a bit more lax about releasing rooms and now those rules or guidelines have been modified. Perhaps it's related to their insourcing but there's no way to know for certain unless someone volunteers that information or we come across a rules change document or something. None of these changes are deal breakers per se, but it's something we should probably look out for and if we see other people experiencing similar lockouts we might want to revise our advice on AGR rewards.

 

[AlanB]

The point is that all of those posts are saying that AGR does not impose any capacity controls. That statement is true, because AMTRAK is the one imposing the capacity control. AGR isn't a magic "get around the rules" card to circumvent Amtrak's capacity controls. Edit: Put another way - AGR will allow you to book any seat Amtrak sells via reward travel, but can't allow you to book a seat that Amtrak won't sell for cash. Your beef is with Amtrak, not AGR.

At this point AGR is completely in-house, so while we can argue the semantics and technicalities all we want the distinction has no practical association. Not that different than what happened with the credit card discussion, only in reverse. :lol:

Trogdor hit the nail on the head and his example from the airlines is spot on. The capacity controls that I was speaking of in all those posts refers to the idea that if Amtrak is willing to sell a room to you for any particular journey, then AGR can get you that room even if it is the last one. In your case Amtrak is NOT selling a room for the trip you want, so AGR cannot get that room.

Airline award programs however do implement their own separate capacity controls. They'll only put say maybe 6 seats on a flight for awards. Once those seats are gone, you cannot use an award for a seat. Even though the entire rest of the plane could in theory be empty, to the award agent it shows sold out. That is an award capacity control.

You are not hitting an award capacity control. You are hitting a global inventory management control. No one can book the room you want for the trip you want. It may be a fine line to you, but it is still a line!

Perhaps the date of those posts? Those statements were all made before AGR was brought 'in-house' so there is a chance that some things are done differently now.

There were other posts making similar claims more recently but I actually agree with you 100%. My guess is that at one time AGR was a bit more lax about releasing rooms and now those rules or guidelines have been modified. Perhaps it's related to their insourcing but there's no way to know for certain unless someone volunteers that information or we come across a rules change document or something. None of these changes are deal breakers per se, but it's something we should probably look out for and if we see other people experiencing similar lockouts we might want to revise our advice on AGR rewards.

AGR's coming in house hasn't changed anything regarding this matter/rule.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You are not hitting an award capacity control. You are hitting a global inventory management control. No one can book the room you want for the trip you want. It may be a fine line to you, but it is still a line!

The point is that it's a line you never bothered to mention in any of those posts.

 

[AlanB]

You are not hitting an award capacity control. You are hitting a global inventory management control. No one can book the room you want for the trip you want. It may be a fine line to you, but it is still a line!

The point is that it's a line you never bothered to mention in any of those posts.

I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious.

If they're not selling a room, then how could you possible expect to get an award?

 

[Ryan]

Alan, you also neglected to specify that award travel must be between cities that Amtrak serves.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious. If they're not selling a room, then how could you possible expect to get an award?

Trying to explain to you what casual riders probably think "every last room" actually means doesn't seem to be getting through. Or trying to explain that casual riders don't spend their free time trying to dissect Amtrak Guest Rewards from Amtrak. Southwest Airlines had a program called Rapid Rewards, and when Southwest Airlines said "every last seat" they actually meant EVERY LAST SEAT on every published route. They also had a few blackout dates. That's exactly what you made AGR sound like. But in reality AGR is nothing like Rapid Rewards. Amtrak might have six more rooms on a published route but they won't give them to you because they have capacity controls in place. What specific group or division decided on which specific controls is not obvious or interesting to casual riders. What they can actually do with their points is probably all they care to know. But I don't think you get that and apparently you never will. Oh well, on to other topics then. :mellow:

 

[AlanB]

I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious. If they're not selling a room, then how could you possible expect to get an award?

Trying to explain to you what casual riders probably think "every last room" actually means doesn't seem to be getting through. Or trying to explain that casual riders don't spend their free time trying to dissect Amtrak Guest Rewards from Amtrak. Southwest Airlines had a program called Rapid Rewards, and when Southwest Airlines said "every last seat" they actually meant EVERY LAST SEAT on every published route. They also had a few blackout dates. That's exactly what you made AGR sound like. But in reality AGR is nothing like Rapid Rewards. Amtrak might have six more rooms on a published route but they won't give them to you because they have capacity controls in place. What specific group or division decided on which specific controls is not obvious or interesting to casual riders. What they can actually do with their points is probably all they care to know. But I don't think you get that and apparently you never will. Oh well, on to other topics then. :mellow:

A casual rider would have never thought to go and do what you did; check to see if there were any rooms from LA to Seattle, after being told no rooms are available from Sacramento to Seattle. Therefore, as far as they are concerned, every last room is gone.

Heck, I'm not even sure that I would have gone to do that and I'm an experienced rider.