Talgo Ferry move

[Trogdor]

Prech: At one point early on in the Amtrak era, there were a few run-through trains. Chicago Union Station has only two run-through tracks, so that would limit the number of trains able to run through the station and keep going somewhere. Some options would be:

Milwaukee - Detroit

Milwaukee - St. Louis

Milwaukee - Galesburg / Quincy

Other route extensions would require a back-up move, I believe.

For some reason, though, Amtrak feels that Chicago has to be the end of the line.

Prech wasn't suggesting any run-throughs through Chicago, but an extension from the Milwaukee end westward.

As for the "some reason" that Amtrak terminates everything in Chicago:

1) Chicago is the maintenance base for a lot of equipment. It's far simpler/easier/cheaper to rotate equipment through Chicago than to set up facilities all over the Midwest.

2) Reliability is much better by breaking things in Chicago rather than running through, which would have delays propagate even more than they do now. This is especially so on the Hiawatha route, which has the tightest schedule in the system.

3) Routes can have different capacity/equipment requirements (particularly the Hiawatha vs. other trains, with no food-service car/business class), so having run-throughs requires equipment (both types and quantities) to match.

4) Since most of the short-distance routes were (and now, all are) state-supported, trying to get a bunch of states together to agree on how to schedule and share costs with a run-through route becomes very difficult.

5) Most folks are either ending in Chicago or connecting to a large number of different trains anyway, so running through would really only benefit a small number of people, which isn't enough to offset the challenges associated with 1, 2, 3 and 4 above.

 

[Guest]

What puzzles me though is that tw sets would cover two of the three Wolverines, leaving the third one with the classic set. . . .

Excuse me for being lazy today (I could look it up), but does Michigan's RFP

specifically refer to the Wolverines route? That line has three trains each way.

But the Blue Water, Port Huron-Flint-Lansing-Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago,

is only one train each way. Couldn't just the two Talgos handle that?

If the Talgos could fit the Blue Water (or the Pere Marquette, for that matter),

that could free up equipment for use on the Wolverines, as a fourth frequency

or maybe simply more cars on each train for when the trip time is reduced by

an hour and demand surges. That schedule cut and demand surge is coming

after this year's work season, I'm hoping, or after next summer (2016) for sure.

 

[jis]

See the first page of this thread. Apparently the RFP calls for same equipment to cover all Michigan Service. I have not read it myself so don't know this for a fact.

But the point that you make is worth a consideration if MI's goal is service expansion rather than equipment replacement.

 

[afigg]

Excuse me for being lazy today (I could look it up), but does Michigan's RFP

specifically refer to the Wolverines route? That line has three trains each way.

The Michigan RFP specifically refers to purchasing equipment for the Wolverine route with the proposer responsible for servicing and maintenance at Pontiac, MI.
In the questions and answer documents "excerpted from the Pre-Proposal Meeting held on March, 2014", MI DOT was asked about the requirement that the proposer offer a minimum of 2 trainsets while Amtrak uses 3 consists to operate the Wolverine train service. If question was if Amtrak provides a protect or spare trainset, who is responsible for its cost? The answer is that Amtrak will be responsible for maintenance of Amtrak's equipment. In short, my read is that they are arranging for the Wolverine service to be provided by 2 Talgo trainsets and 1 Horizon consist.

The RFP is open to either leasing or purchasing the equipment. However, in the questions and answers, MDOT states that it is not seeking to take title to a maintenance facility. I think if MDOT buys the Talgos, it would be because of legal reasons to have ownership title while the Talgo-Wisconsin lawsuit drags on (court might invalidate a lease) and because they can get them for a big discount thanks to Gov. Walker. But I don't think MDOT would buy them if they had already not had discussions with Washington State DOT about WSDOT buying the Talgos from MDOT in 2018.

 

[neroden]

Don't be surprised if the plan is actually 2 Talgo trainsets and 1 *Superliner* consist. The Superliners are used in the winter when possible anyway, and Michigan may well want to be rid of the Horizons ASAP.

(Which gets us back to the question of what Amtrak will do with the Horizon fleet after Michigan, Illinois, and Missouri replace it. At this point I think it should be cycled through Beech Grove, have the lighting replaced, and have the seats replaced for Eastern long-distance coach service.)

 

[Trogdor]

Don't be surprised if the plan is actually 2 Talgo trainsets and 1 *Superliner* consist.

I would be. Michigan just spent a bunch of money (and is spending more) to upgrade the railroad to 110 mph, which Superliners can't do.

Plus, in the summer, the Superliners are pretty well spoken for.

 

[Palmetto]

Don't be surprised if the plan is actually 2 Talgo trainsets and 1 *Superliner* consist.

I would be. Michigan just spent a bunch of money (and is spending more) to upgrade the railroad to 110 mph, which Superliners can't do.

Plus, in the summer, the Superliners are pretty well spoken for.

You're assuming that all schedules must run at MAS. Consider the NEC, where MAS is 150 MPH. Not all trains do that speed there, and there's no reason that I can see that all trains must run at 110 MPH on the Wolverine corridor.

 

[Ryan]

You're assuming that all schedules must run at MAS.

It's more likely that he just read the RFP:

Operating Speeds

Track conditions on portions of the “Wolverine” route are being upgraded to allow operation at a maximum speed of 110 mph. Cars offered in response to this RFP must hold existing qualification to operate at 110 mph in accordance with FRA regulations, or be capable of achieving such qualification in accordance with Section IV - Anticipated Project Schedule.

 

[edjbox]

Will the two WI Talgos eventually go to Oregon if no one else wants them?

Also, if MI wants these Talgos, they should rename one of the late night to Detroit/early back Wolverine trains back to the Twilight Limited with Horizon cars while the Wolverines will take the Talgos.

 

[afigg]

GenePoon has posted on trainorders that an Indianapolis crew will go north to Chicago Thursday morning and take the WI Talgos to Beech Grove following #50(29) Cardinal in the evening. We shall see if someone can get a good video of the move.

Will the two WI Talgos eventually go to Oregon if no one else wants them?

It would be Washington State that would be the logical buyer of the WI Talgos after 2017 if WS DOT is interested and has the funds. Oregon already has 2 new Talgos.

 

[edjbox]

Trains Magazine has pictures of the move today

 

[CHamilton]

This article also has pictures.

The Last Train from Talgo

 

[afigg]

This article also has pictures.

The Last Train from Talgo

I would have gone with the headline Escape from Wisconsin. In the photos, looks like the spare cars are tacked on the end for one long passenger train move. Hope someone shoots a good video of the combined Talgo set passing by.

 

[rickycourtney]

This article also has pictures.

The Last Train from Talgo

Interesting how they combined most of the cars into one very long consist with a cab car at the end and another short 2 car consist with the other cab car.

 

[ACS-64]

This article also has pictures.

The Last Train from Talgo

Interesting how they combined most of the cars into one very long consist with a cab car at the end and another short 2 car consist with the other cab car.

There are the full two trainsets there and then the three cars on the end are the "spares". There are a total of three Talgo cabs in the consist.

 

[MrFSS]

 

[CHamilton]

There's also a video on the Facebook Amtrak group here. I believe that you need to be a member of the group to see it.

 

[Steve4031]

I think I saw a food service car in the middle of each consist. I thought these trains wouldn't have snack car.

 

[CHamilton]

I think I saw a food service car in the middle of each consist. I thought these trains wouldn't have snack car.

It's my understanding that they were built with snack (bistro) cars. The Talgos built for Wisconsin service did not, however, have business class cars, although I'm sure that's just a matter of changing seat configuration.

 

[rickycourtney]

I think I saw a food service car in the middle of each consist. I thought these trains wouldn't have snack car.

It's my understanding that they were built with snack (bistro) cars. The Talgos built for Wisconsin service did not, however, have business class cars, although I'm sure that's just a matter of changing seat configuration.

They have bistro cars, but no dining cars (basically a lounge car with tables attached next to the bistro car).

 

[Steve4031]

We'll that should be good enough for Michigan.

 

[grover5995]

Interesting note in there that Talgo was the only respondent to the Michigan RFP.

The list of US companies or operators which have passenger cars available which are certified for 110 mph, push-pull operation, meet Amtrak requirements, are ADA compliant, have business class seating, a cafe or bistro car, and are either built new or refurbed & overhauled in the last 5 years is rather short. Amtrak could have offered Amfleets, but Amtrak does not have many of those to spare.

Would be interested to learn what Amtrak's management really thinks about MiDOT possibly leasing the Talgos for the next 3 years and not paying for the Horizons. On the other hand, if MIDOT does lease the Talgos, it frees up Horizon equipment for increased service frequencies on other Midwest routes or for use on the 2 new corridor services in IL while waiting for all the corridor bi-levels to be delivered.

The Talgo trainsets are very comfortable to ride but they are too long for many existing station platforms. However, they could fill in quite nicely until double-deck equipment arrives in a few years to expand service frequencies.