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One thing I wonder is if the railfans are jumping the gun again ... after all, the board only authorized Amtrak to enter into negotiations with Union Pacific on the proposal. UP is notorious for their dislike of Amtrak, so it's probably likely that they're going to play hardball on this. I can see them demanding an insane amount of track improvements in exchange for the added frequency, causing Amtrak to back down.
At any rate, if Amtrak is just beginning to talk with UP now, even if UP cooperates it would be a challenge to get everything sorted out in time for the next timetable change.
I don't believe that UP is in that strong of a bargaining position. No matter what they have to do PTC on the Sunset route anyhow. They're already double tracking because even without Amtrak, they're choking on that line. And finally, I believe that they are only able to demand that Amtrak pay for improvements when Amtrak is starting service on a line that wasn't grandfathered in on Amtrak Day 1 and hasn't seen service discontinued since.

UP could still drag its feet and delay things, but they can only go so far before Amtrak hauls them into a challenge.
 
I couldn't care if they called the Sunset Limited the Sunset Limited, the George HW Bush, the Money Pit, or just plain Train #1 & Train #2. The Sunset's history means nothing to me. Numbers are what's important to me and so far I've not seen any numbers period, much less any numbers that show that this might actually be good for both Amtrak and the states affected.
Indeed. Just don't get the hang up with the past, yes the history of a lot of this kind of thing is interesting, but you have to do what works now, rather than what has gone on in the past. Daily service must be the thing here, 3 times a week is as near as useless and a waste of resources. What you call the train is of little or no interest to 99.99999% of the people who might actually use it.
 
Never knew we had so many Accountants (beancounters)on this forum! Guess when we get older things from the past mean more, but I don't understand the thinking that train names don't mean anything! Back in the day the crack/deluxe trains had grand names (The Broadway Ltd./Twenty Century Ltd./City of San Francisco/Sunset Ltd.!

Various Zephyers/The National Ltd. (a great name!). The milk runs and lesser trains were #6/#8/#12

If the Orient Express had been called #3 or the Old Pantegonian Express had been #12 would it be the same? No way Jose!Even the numbering system on the Acelas reminds me of selling a used car or an inventory number! The City of New York/The Boston Express/The Washingtonian etc. would mean something IMHO!

I'll grant you that the important thing is to get and keep the trains running daily on as good a schedule as possible!

Let us old timers (Bill are you and I the only ones on this side?I'd think that Tom and a few others that I've read/seen old timey pics and posts from would agree!) IMHO it does matter to people that take LD train trips what the train is named/called! The City of New Orleans/The Empire Builder/Coastal Starlight etc. mean a lot more than #10/#202 to people taking vacations and dream trips and especially first time riders! Most LD trains have lots of retired and Senior people on them and in my experience they do care! :p
 
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Never knew we had so many Accountants (beancounters)on this forum! Guess when we get older things from the past mean more, but I don't understand the thinking that train names don't mean anything! Back in the day the crack/deluxe trains had grand names (The Broadway Ltd./Twenty Century Ltd./City of San Francisco/Sunset Ltd.!Various Zephyers/The National Ltd. (a great name!). The milk runs and lesser trains were #6/#8/#12

If the Orient Express had been called #3 or the Old Pantegonian Express had been #12 would it be the same? No way Jose!Even the numbering system on the Acelas reminds me of selling a used car or an inventory number! The City of New York/The Boston Express/The Washingtonian etc. would mean something IMHO!

I'll grant you that the important thing is to get and keep the trains running daily on as good a schedule as possible!

Let us old timers (Bill are you and I the only ones on this side?I'd think that Tom and a few others that I've read/seen old timey pics and posts from would agree!) IMHO it does matter to people that take LD train trips what the train is named/called! The City of New Orleans/The Empire Builder/Coastal Starlight etc. mean a lot more than #10/#202 to people taking vacations and dream trips and especially first time riders! Most LD trains have lots of retired and Senior people on them and in my experience they do care! :p
Granted it is part of it, but do you think that someone who is going to pay up to $1200ish for a bedroom on the CZ does so because the train name is nice? Or someone who is 14 hours late on the CZ at the moment is really pleased that even though he has missed the appointment/wedding/funeral he was going to, at least he is 14 hours late on the Zephyr, not just boring old train number 5? I suspect it is only foamers that get really worked up over train names, the other passengers just don't care much.
 
Historic train names certainly matter far more to us than the average traveler ... but there's also no doubt that an evocative train name is a good marketing tool. Get on pretty much any long-distance Amtrak train and start talking to passengers, and they're all going to know the train name, but relatively few will know the train number.
 
Oh, and my proverbial two cents on train names.
If I were the timetable king of Amtrak, I'd give the Sunset name to the daily Chicago-LA train, and name the stub train The Argonaut ... which was the name of the secondary train on the Sunset Route back in Southern Pacific days. It's a cool name, I think, and it would fit for the stub train.

Overall, I really like the legacy of the classic train names ... and the names Amtrak has constructed over the years just don't compare. In particular, I never liked the "hybrid" names, where Amtrak constructed its own names using phrases from the great historic names. They just seem awkward and forced to me: San Francisco Zephyr, North Coast Hiawatha ... Texas Eagle.

And though I can't find it now, I know I read it somewhere: I'm pretty sure that back in the 1890s (before the Golden State Route was completed) the Sunset LImited actually had a section that ran to Chicago!
The Texas Eagle was a premier Missouri Pacific/Texas and Pacific train from 1948 through 1971. It originally ran in two sections from St. Louis via Little Rock and Texarkana with one section going to Palestine, Austin and San Antonio and Houston and the second section following the same route until Longview Texas where it diverage west to Dallas, Fort Worth and El Paso. For much of its time, it carried through cars from New York and Washington to Texas points and through cars from Dallas to Los Angeles via the Sunset Route. It also had a Memphis section that was added or detached at Little Rock with through cars to Texas points. I lived in or traveled to and from Hot Springs Arkansas in the 1950s and 1960s. Between 11PM and 2:30AM Little Rock Union Station was a busy place with the arrivals and departures of the various sections of the Texas Eagles. Until the early 1960s, MoPac also ran the Sunshine Special which was downgraded in 1948 when the New Texas Eagles arrived. The Sunshine Special ran on a slower schedule with more stops and more sections from other trains operating in it such as the St. Louis-Hot Springs section which was cut out at Little Rock, the El Dorado section which was cut out at Gurdon, Ar and the Shreveport section what was cut out at Hope, AR. The thing I remember most about the Texas Eagle was the northbound run from Little Rock to St. Louis leaving Little Rock at 2:05AM with a brief stop at Poplar Bluff and then stopping at Tower Grove Station in St. Louis at 8:05AM...it then took 30 min to get into St Louis Union Station because of having to back in. But the train really flew averaging over 58 miles an hour from Little Rock to Tower Grove and thats the same route Amtrak's Texas Eagle uses today.
 
Overall, I really like the legacy of the classic train names ... and the names Amtrak has constructed over the years just don't compare. In particular, I never liked the "hybrid" names, where Amtrak constructed its own names using phrases from the great historic names. They just seem awkward and forced to me: San Francisco Zephyr, North Coast Hiawatha ... Texas Eagle.
Texas Eagle isn't an Amtrak constructed name; it's a legacy name from the Missouri Pacific. Now it's not as old as the name Sunset Limited, having debuted in the late 40's IIRC, but it is a legacy name.

As for what the services will be called, I'd have to point out the obvious--the "TE" in TEMPO. It's been acknowledged here and elsewhere that the group has a good bit of pull, and I assume that they will lobby hard to keep the Texas Eagle name intact. I personally wouldn't mind if the name of the train switched in SAS, with service west being the SSL and service north being the TE, but I don't think that's even been proposed (and it would be a little odd for a train to switch names in the middle of the route) but, outside of restoring the pre-Katrina SSL, that seems to be the thing that would appease the most people--you'd get the upgrade in service frequency along the SSL route and you'd keep the name intact.

At the end of the day, I do think that the Amtrak higher-ups would like to just sweep the SSL into the dustbin of history; that hasn't been said to me personally or announced anywhere, but the writing's on the wall.

The pink elephant in the room is that the new plan (Daily Texas Eagle to LA) seems to be fragmenting some of the advocacy groups: for TEMPO and those of us along the Eagle route, the change is extremely good for us. For SMART, it's bad. For the folks between NOL and SAS, it's somewhere in the middle--daily service but coach only. I haven't been involved in this advocacy thing for very long, but it doesn't take very long to get a good idea of the politics and the egos and the personalities (and, to be clear, I'm not referring to anyone here at this board.) The end result is similar to when Ross Perot entered the presidential race in the early 90's: you split the vote, so to speak. There isn't one united group of people standing up for the SSL--rather, there are several splinter groups with their own agendas, juxtaposed against one group that has operated quite well for about a decade and that benefits from the new plan.
 
This is what I am sure will happen. Between Little Rock and San Antonio, all sleepers will be full going west of SAS. This leaves nothing for

riders on the NOL-SAS. I think coach also will be extremely limited or sold out. We are talking the second largest state and one of the fastest growing

states all trying to squeeze onto 1 LD train. Houston, Dallas, Fort worth, Austin, New Orleans, Little Rock, San Antonio, and towns in between trying

to ride west of SAS. Why stop in El paso unless a good number of passengers get off there. For Example if only 3 passengers get off in El Paso, then only 3

passengers can get on. The number of riders in El Paso will drop and Green can say El Paso has no interest in rail passenger service.
 
This is just a blanket post not directed at anybody in particular. Just sharing my two cents.

I don't think that the SMART group is anti-Western SL. Some group members in the organization are indifferent as to what happens with the NOL-LAX portion of the route because it doesn't really affect them (the Florida members mostly), but that doesn't mean they want to see the train picked apart...as is, apparently, what's happening now. Obviously this is a blow to all involved in the process of getting the FLA service restored. I would have rather seen a full, LAX-ORL tri weekly Sunset over a daily Sunset/Eagle with a stub train to NOL. This new Eagle/Sunset deal, in my view, lessens the chance of NOL-ORL service ever happening, as now the best option seems to be extending the City of New Orleans. New equipment will have to be added for that to happen, IIRC....new equipment didn't have to be added if 1/2 went back to their old schedule. Good for TEMPO for getting things done but don't think the folks in SMART didn't try. Amtrak obviously decided which route segment they thought was more important.

As for the train name, I just hope the stub train isn't called the Texas Eagle. Better yet, if the name Sunset Limited has to go, they might as well get rid of the name Texas Eagle as well, and just call the whole thing "Golden State."

As much as I like daily service, I loathe the reduced quality in on board service for the cities in between NOL and SAS. I've been on this route many times over the past seven years and there's never a shortage of sleeper patronage.
 
Oh, and my proverbial two cents on train names.
If I were the timetable king of Amtrak, I'd give the Sunset name to the daily Chicago-LA train, and name the stub train The Argonaut ... which was the name of the secondary train on the Sunset Route back in Southern Pacific days. It's a cool name, I think, and it would fit for the stub train.

Overall, I really like the legacy of the classic train names ... and the names Amtrak has constructed over the years just don't compare. In particular, I never liked the "hybrid" names, where Amtrak constructed its own names using phrases from the great historic names. They just seem awkward and forced to me: San Francisco Zephyr, North Coast Hiawatha ... Texas Eagle.

And though I can't find it now, I know I read it somewhere: I'm pretty sure that back in the 1890s (before the Golden State Route was completed) the Sunset LImited actually had a section that ran to Chicago!
The Sunset Limited was the poster child, and is the poster child, for how much money Amtrak can lose. Marketing to passengers isn't important. Its telling congress that they are discontinuing a money losing joke, and reconfiguring the whole set up so that it serves the same riders more frequently at lower cost. Amtrak has two customers- the public and congress. This is a marketing plan aimed at congress.

What Alan is saying is inaccurate. The convenience of no transfer made the Cardinal a more attractive option then it was relative to the Lake Shore Limited. If there were two trains serving NOL-LAX, one running through and one requiring a transfer, Alan would have a point and I'd concede it. But there isn't. There is but one train, and you can't get NOL-LAX with a one seat ride except by airplane. Greyhound does not offer a one seat ride, so there is no competition. Except the airlines. And if people were looking for fast, simple, service the airlines would have their business whether the train is one seat or two seats.

Lastly, I have it from very solid sources that there are currently five trains involved in this equation- Sunset East, Sunset West, the Texas Eagle, and the City of New Orleans. At the end of the day, you will have three trains involved in the equation. The tentative names I have heard are Golden State Limited (CHI-SAS-LAX), Texas Sunrise (NOL-SAS) and City of Miami (CHI-NOL-MIA). All will run daily, and can be run tightly with no additional equipment whatsoever. Plans call for an additional trainset to make the run more comfortable and allow for better scheduling when the whole thing comes online.

Also keep in mind the accounting differences here. You are creating three separate entities long the route. The City is already a decently performing train, and internal thoughts within Amtrak are that its performance will be hurt a little- but not much- by the extension. The Texas Eagle is one of the better performing trains in the system, thanks in no small part to TEMPO. The section of the Sunset's run from SAS to LAX has always been the best performing segment of the route, so the change is supposed to actually improve the performance of the CHI-SAS-LAX train.

The Texas Sunrise is expected to be a money pit. But its a short, 573 mile money pit requiring only 2 conductors, 2 coach attendants, a chef, and an LSA, with coaches, money adding business class, and a cross country cafe. So even though it will have a bad fare box recovery, its cost per passenger should be much much smaller then the Sunsets, perhaps even under $150 a passenger.

Yes, the same money is going to likely be spent. Yes, the financial performance is not going to be hugely better- although there are some that disagree. But the fact is, the Sunsets $600+ a passenger loss will be a thing of the past. Because that loss will be spread over the three trains, two of them good performers, the losses will not be attributable to one single train. Word is there is pressure to simply discontinue the train altogether.

I also have it on the same solid sources that this is not a done deal. The source indicated the chances are about 50% that this will come to pass within the next 2-3 years. The Sunset dying is very important to Amtrak for the reasons I stated.

Granted it is part of it, but do you think that someone who is going to pay up to $1200ish for a bedroom on the CZ does so because the train name is nice? Or someone who is 14 hours late on the CZ at the moment is really pleased that even though he has missed the appointment/wedding/funeral he was going to, at least he is 14 hours late on the Zephyr, not just boring old train number 5? I suspect it is only foamers that get really worked up over train names, the other passengers just don't care much.
Do you remember when Jaguar was at its absolute worst, under British Leyland ownership, when the Jaguar plant in Coventry was referred to as "Large Car Plant 2"? (Rover being LCP1) The workers turned out crap, and why shouldn't they? They had no pride in working for a great car company producing stunning automobiles- they were working for a large, mostly government owned conglomerate with no sense of identity.

Naming the trains gives them an identity. Perhaps not as much for the riders as the workers that serve them. It gives the company a sense of pride, the workers a sense of pride. It gives the trains an identity. I think if you took away the names, slowly service standards would decline and ridership would go with it.

Assuming the name created, though, is nice sounding it shouldn't have much effect beyond that.
 
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Apologies for the Texas Eagle gaffe ... that of course was the historic name. When I typed that I was thinking of a train just called The Eagle, which I guess was an earlier St. Louis - Kansas City train.

But I still think the name needs to go. :) It would be weird to have a train named after a midpoint location on its route ... kind of like having a Chicago-Emeryville train named the Colorado Zephyr, or a Chicago - New Orleans run named the City of Carbondale.

As for the various rail passenger advocacy groups, it would be interesting to know just how much influence any of them have on Amtrak in general, or on this decision in particular. My guess is, "not very much" -- at least not as much as they would like to think they do. Of course, there's no way to know for sure.
 
Some do, some don't. NARP is a paid Amtrak consultant, for one thing. It also depends on who is running it. Boardman is never a person to ignore a good suggestion. If a group came up with a good one, I doubt he wouldn't at least look into the idea. It also depends on the magnitude. If a group suggests, for instance, offering hot chocolate in the dining car it has a higher chance of being implemented then if they are asking for a train from Denver to El Paso when they live in El Paso and their parents live in Denver.
 
Naming the trains gives them an identity. Perhaps not as much for the riders as the workers that serve them. It gives the company a sense of pride, the workers a sense of pride. It gives the trains an identity. I think if you took away the names, slowly service standards would decline and ridership would go with it.
And as a positive example, I'll point to the Crescent, which has recently had a lot of identity-strengthening: its own menus, dining car crews wearing Crescent-logo'd aprons and hats, Crescent-specific merchandise available in the cafe car. And the crews I've had over the past few months have really had a sense of pride in working on the Crescent, a sense of appreciation to Amtrak for giving their train that extra panache -- even if it doesn't come along with "service or amenity improvements" like the china on the Empire Builder -- and in turn, the crew have expressed and demonstrated a desire to provide passengers a better experience. Something as simple as brand-building has had some big positive effects which probably translate to increased customer satisfaction and ultimately, hopefully, through word of mouth advertising from satisfied passengers it may translate to increased revenue for relatively little financial investment.

But I agree with GML: ditch the name Sunset. There are other great legacy train names to draw from, and they don't have the tremendous negative baggage that Sunset carries with Congress. If you're changing the route and scheduling logistics, there's no better time to change the name to highlight and underscore those changes. Even if those changes are sort of accomplished through shuffling things around without necessarily changing the bottom-line finances. Heck, especially in that case. And then use the new name(s) heavily, tout their history, and tout their future, to create the sort of success that Amtrak has built from re-emphasizing the name Crescent.
 
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Oh, and my proverbial two cents on train names.
If I were the timetable king of Amtrak, I'd give the Sunset name to the daily Chicago-LA train, and name the stub train The Argonaut ... which was the name of the secondary train on the Sunset Route back in Southern Pacific days. It's a cool name, I think, and it would fit for the stub train.

Overall, I really like the legacy of the classic train names ... and the names Amtrak has constructed over the years just don't compare. In particular, I never liked the "hybrid" names, where Amtrak constructed its own names using phrases from the great historic names. They just seem awkward and forced to me: San Francisco Zephyr, North Coast Hiawatha ... Texas Eagle.

And though I can't find it now, I know I read it somewhere: I'm pretty sure that back in the 1890s (before the Golden State Route was completed) the Sunset LImited actually had a section that ran to Chicago!
The Texas Eagle was a premier Missouri Pacific/Texas and Pacific train from 1948 through 1971. It originally ran in two sections from St. Louis via Little Rock and Texarkana with one section going to Palestine, Austin and San Antonio and Houston and the second section following the same route until Longview Texas where it diverage west to Dallas, Fort Worth and El Paso. For much of its time, it carried through cars from New York and Washington to Texas points and through cars from Dallas to Los Angeles via the Sunset Route. It also had a Memphis section that was added or detached at Little Rock with through cars to Texas points. I lived in or traveled to and from Hot Springs Arkansas in the 1950s and 1960s. Between 11PM and 2:30AM Little Rock Union Station was a busy place with the arrivals and departures of the various sections of the Texas Eagles. Until the early 1960s, MoPac also ran the Sunshine Special which was downgraded in 1948 when the New Texas Eagles arrived. The Sunshine Special ran on a slower schedule with more stops and more sections from other trains operating in it such as the St. Louis-Hot Springs section which was cut out at Little Rock, the El Dorado section which was cut out at Gurdon, Ar and the Shreveport section what was cut out at Hope, AR. The thing I remember most about the Texas Eagle was the northbound run from Little Rock to St. Louis leaving Little Rock at 2:05AM with a brief stop at Poplar Bluff and then stopping at Tower Grove Station in St. Louis at 8:05AM...it then took 30 min to get into St Louis Union Station because of having to back in. But the train really flew averaging over 58 miles an hour from Little Rock to Tower Grove and thats the same route Amtrak's Texas Eagle uses today.

I really enjoyed reading the above info. Only two things I would add to it. One, at times there was a through sleeper from STL to Mexico City; at other times it ran CHI to Mexico City. I also got a kick out of the silver slumbercoach (on a train largely blue) than ran from Baltimore to San Antone. Somehow that always seemed an odd city pair to me.

As to the present use of names, that leaves me in a complete quandry since I know and love most of the names. It was said it did not matter what it was called if it got you there too late to attend the wedding or funeral or whatever it was. No denying that. What you would call it then would not be printable, understood.

Many years ago my sister lived in Dallas so I, going from Chattanooga to Dallas via Memphis several times got quite familiar with the pre Amtrak TE. Once I came back via ST.Louis so I know what you are talking about about that long stretch without a stop. My mother and sister got familiar with it,too. It became a household name as each of us had neat experiences.

Then the Golden State Limited was a fine train. I just regret that I never even saw it, much less rode it.The secondary train on its route was the Imperial.

And you cannot deny the long years we have had the Sunset Limited name. What to do?? What to do??

I am glad that Amtrak has been reasonably faithful to retain the old train names. Yeah, I know, I did not care for San Francisco Zephyr either, for example.
 
:) I continue to be amazed that so many people have such strong feelings about "our" trains! It's a good sign to me, and I would hope,to others down this way! Although it's apparent I personaly have a sentimental reason for wanting to keep the Sunset name, it does'nt matter really, as long as the daily trains start and are properly scheduled. We all know politics is everything in WAS, but if the Cardinal can run, and the NEC favortism can continue, why not give the sunbelt/south some long needed help where the most growth has and will continue to be!

I think the new CHI-LAX train could/should be called "The City of Los Angeles", but that's just me, I like the City names.

The marketing of trains IS important, and the pride of the crew and passengers can't be dismissed, there's a reason the CS and the EB are held in high esteem by the riders and the crews!

Call the stub trains whatever you want, I don't like the Sunshine name, that should be used in Florida where someone said it's a great place to live if your'e an orange! :lol:

And GML, if you are correct, and I suspect you are in this case, thanks for the info! The names not everything but I still don't want to see "Ride #14 from LAX-SEA" or "Take #7 from CHI-SEA", hope this clarifies my thoughts, I don't want to offend any train lovers, the more the better and "to each his own" as Bob Dylan said! :)
 
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Historic train names certainly matter far more to us than the average traveler ... but there's also no doubt that an evocative train name is a good marketing tool. Get on pretty much any long-distance Amtrak train and start talking to passengers, and they're all going to know the train name, but relatively few will know the train number.
Actually I've not found that to be true. Even here on the board over the years I've said to a first timer "get on "insert name here" train and ride it to XYZ." Only to have them come back and ask what train number is that?

You can't book the train by name, unless you're talking with an agent. No place on the ticket does the train's name appear. And VIA Rail after extensive studies and surveys, just eliminated all train names save one, the Canadian. VIA found that most people either didn't know the train's name or didn't care about it and used the train's number.

Even Amtrak has eliminated all named trains within its NEC service because people didn't use them.
 
As for what the services will be called, I'd have to point out the obvious--the "TE" in TEMPO. It's been acknowledged here and elsewhere that the group has a good bit of pull, and I assume that they will lobby hard to keep the Texas Eagle name intact.
Blake,

I wouldn't argue TEMPO's power or its success in Texas and with the Texas Eagle. But let's not forget that Amtrak choose to annouce this plan to the group in California that suggested it and has been pushing for daily service on the Cali section of the Sunset for years.

Amtrak didn't come to TEMPO or even Texas to announce this.
 
Under the new plan, there would be no sleeper for us and Amtrak would have lost that revenue. Revenue that we know to be substantial.
Alan you keep saying this. It's just not factual. The current Sunset sleepers(four sets) sit around in New Orleans three days before they return doing nothing and earning no revenue. When this train goes daily, all the sleepers in the pool(I believe that will be around 9 or 10) will be busy all the time earning revenue except on each end when they are turned and serviced. There is no slack in the schedule like there is now. The SAS to NOL trains will offer business class. The schedule for them is 8am departure and 10pm arrival at the other end. No overnight. They will pass through Houston around noon eastbound and 5pm westbound. I don't know why you have to have your sleeper on this daylight section, but I'll talk to Boardman and see what I can do for you. lol.
 
I definitely agree that there's no real reason to name individual trains running in corridors that have more than a couple of daily services, with the same equipment and endpoints ... but any advertising guy will tell you that branding is extremely important, and Amtrak definitely recognizes that for its long distance services. Those handsome travel posters Amtrak has produced for its western routes wouldn't be anywhere near as cool (or effective) if, for example, they said "trains 7 and 8" instead of "Empire Builder."

In Canada, VIA also kept the "Ocean" train name, at least recognizing that the system's two most historic names are valuable marketing tools. VIA's other longer-distance services are very different from the Amtrak model, in that they are legally required to operate in order to serve isolated communities. So there's no competition between travel modes there, and though they have some seasonal tourist traffic in general they attract a different sort of traveler. Consequently, most of the VIA names on those trains never really caught on, and the routes are largely ones where the pre-VIA trains were never named.
 
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What Alan is saying is inaccurate. The convenience of no transfer made the Cardinal a more attractive option then it was relative to the Lake Shore Limited. If there were two trains serving NOL-LAX, one running through and one requiring a transfer, Alan would have a point and I'd concede it. But there isn't. There is but one train, and you can't get NOL-LAX with a one seat ride except by airplane. Greyhound does not offer a one seat ride, so there is no competition. Except the airlines. And if people were looking for fast, simple, service the airlines would have their business whether the train is one seat or two seats.
No, what I'm saying is quite accurate. You're making the mistake of assuming that all of the Cardinal's increased passenger load is coming from NYP. It's not. It's coming from Newark, Trenton, Philadelphia, Wilmington, and Baltimore. That same one seat ride concept is why NARP and other's have been pushing for years to get a Silver train extended to Boston. It's also why ridership just went back up on the Boston section of the LSL, since they resumed through service.

Lastly, I have it from very solid sources that there are currently five trains involved in this equation- Sunset East, Sunset West, the Texas Eagle, and the City of New Orleans.
Not trying to be a pain here, but I only count 4 trains. Where's the fifth? And frankly I don't see the Sunset as two trains, but I won't argue that.

At the end of the day, you will have three trains involved in the equation. The tentative names I have heard are Golden State Limited (CHI-SAS-LAX), Texas Sunrise (NOL-SAS) and City of Miami (CHI-NOL-MIA). All will run daily, and can be run tightly with no additional equipment whatsoever. Plans call for an additional trainset to make the run more comfortable and allow for better scheduling when the whole thing comes online.

The City is already a decently performing train, and internal thoughts within Amtrak are that its performance will be hurt a little- but not much- by the extension.
The City is one of Amtrak's worst performing trains, ahead of only the Cardinal, the Palmetto, and the Sunset; both in terms of passenger counts and revenue. In terms of sleeper revenue, it outranks only the Cardinal.

The section of the Sunset's run from SAS to LAX has always been the best performing segment of the route, so the change is supposed to actually improve the performance of the CHI-SAS-LAX train.
Actually some groups have claimed that the best performing segment was Orlando to New Orleans. And the initial drop in revenue from just over $11 million pre-Katrina to just over $5 million post Katrina would seem to confirm that. Remember that for over 6 months, the Sunset terminated in San Antonio.

The Texas Sunrise is expected to be a money pit. But its a short, 573 mile money pit requiring only 2 conductors, 2 coach attendants, a chef, and an LSA, with coaches, money adding business class, and a cross country cafe. So even though it will have a bad fare box recovery, its cost per passenger should be much much smaller then the Sunsets, perhaps even under $150 a passenger.
Amtrak can't run a CCC with just an LSA and a cook.

Yes, the same money is going to likely be spent. Yes, the financial performance is not going to be hugely better- although there are some that disagree. But the fact is, the Sunsets $600+ a passenger loss will be a thing of the past. Because that loss will be spread over the three trains, two of them good performers, the losses will not be attributable to one single train. Word is there is pressure to simply discontinue the train altogether.
The Sunset's per passenger loss is only $437, not $600.

Naming the trains gives them an identity. Perhaps not as much for the riders as the workers that serve them. It gives the company a sense of pride, the workers a sense of pride. It gives the trains an identity. I think if you took away the names, slowly service standards would decline and ridership would go with it.
VIA Rail disagrees with you, as do their studies and surveys, which is why they have eliminated all train names except for the Canadian.
 
This is what I am sure will happen. Between Little Rock and San Antonio, all sleepers will be full going west of SAS. This leaves nothing forriders on the NOL-SAS. I think coach also will be extremely limited or sold out. We are talking the second largest state and one of the fastest growing

states all trying to squeeze onto 1 LD train. Houston, Dallas, Fort worth, Austin, New Orleans, Little Rock, San Antonio, and towns in between trying

to ride west of SAS. Why stop in El paso unless a good number of passengers get off there. For Example if only 3 passengers get off in El Paso, then only 3

passengers can get on. The number of riders in El Paso will drop and Green can say El Paso has no interest in rail passenger service.
Again people are missing the idea of daily service. Running the train daily more than doubles capacity. So if the three times a week sleepers are full now you will have four more options each week than you do now. People get on and get off the train all along the route. I feel sure there will be seats for the SAS east passengers. There are also a couple of extra coaches and sleepers in the pool that could be added between SAS and LAX durning peak periods. With all the repairs going on and with TEMPO marketing the train, if the demand is there they will somehow find the equipment. They want this train to succeed. As we discussed elsewhere on here, there are sleepers and coaches laying over in SAS with the current schedule so I don't see any problem adding and dropping them off there in the future.
 
The names not everything but I still don't want to see "Ride #14 from LAX-SEA" or "Take #7 from CHI-SEA",
And I certainly don't want to ride #97 from LYH-DAN! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I "get it".

I should get it.. My mother sang it to me enough times.

When so much much later in life mother was able to be taken from ATL to NYC and back, her only trip to the big city, I reminded her of this. She was in the early stages of Parkinsons and losing her speech. But if she had been physically able, she would have sung that song all night.
 
By the way, while dumping the Sunset Limited name would get rid of that black eye as it were for Amtrak, one of two things will happen. Either the new stub train will do so poorly as to take it's place or the Cardinal will take over as the hated train. The anti-Amtrak/anti-rail crowd will simply transfer their hate to whatever train is the worst performer. Changing the name won't solve the problem, it just transfers it elsewhere.
 
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