Sunset Limited BULLETIN

[haolerider]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Ok I agree with you on that, the Empire Builder is not exactly a luxury liner. Still there are many other day trains that operate even longer distances that don't have diner or sleeper service. While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

To be fair... I'm not sure if this is the BEST way to solve issues, but I think that a train going daily is a very good thing. While the Sunset portion East of San Antonio is losing a diner and sleepers, the Texas Eagle is GAINING a full Diner. I realize in a perfect world both trains could operate more independant of each other and both have full diners etc. but AMTRAK we all know is far from perfect.

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

I realize what I was saying and I stand by it. I just don't give them a whole lot of credit for coming up with something that's in my opinion, too shortsighted.

Remember, what seems to be shortsighted to you may be just the perfect solution to someone else. I doubt if Amtrak management cares much about your secondary education comment and I don't know what kind of business you are in, but the one thing everyone needs to remember is that on forums such as this, all it takes is a computer, connection and the ability to hit a few keys and you can become an instant expert! Isn't technology great?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The 4th largest state Florida lose's a LD train and second largest state Texas will drop from two LD trains to one. Yet manyhere see that as progress.

And I also agree that the SA-NOL stub will get the axe after 3-4 years or a major wreck requiring superliner replacements.

You're paying no attention to the overall plan. First of all, the "Texas Sunrise" is a long-distance train and should have a CCC. So Texas isn't losing anything- it is gaining an additional train 4 days a week. The second phase of this plan, which would happen 6 months to a year after this, is the extension of the City of New Orleans to either Orlando or Miami. So Florida gets its train back, as well.

What I haven't been discussing is Amtraks intention either order some Superliner 3 cars or to order long-distance diner/lounge, coach, and sleeper cars based on the midwest corridor cars. It was indicated to me that one of those sleepers (which is not a Superliner, and may be all roomette with a single H-room) and perhaps a coach will become a through operation connecting to the Texas Sunrise and eventually the City of Miami, should they be delivered.

You guys are concentrating on losing the Sunset Limited. What Amtrak is doing is entirely reconfiguring its midwestern long distance trains and its southern transcon route. This is a huge operation, and it is going to take time. The first stage of this plan, which as I said, is not a foregone conclusion, is extending the Texas Eagle to LAX daily and replacing the Sunset with a day train between San Antonio and New Orleans. Stage two, which if this does happen has about an 85% chance of happening, is the extension of the City of New Orleans to Florida. Stage three, which if both state one and state two happen has about a 50% chance of happening, is the implementation of through cars.

 

[NativeSon5859]

As to the idea of an enhanced Sunset Limited becoming the "Empire Builder of the South" I don't think your being realistic.... the clientele that ride the Sunset are totally different then the Empire Builder and Coast Starlight type... and before anyone calls me out I was born in Louisiana and love visiting New Orleans, but lets be honest the Sunset Limited has a lower class of riders... yea i said it, even though Alan probably has some statistics that will prove me wrong : )

Ok, maybe I'm pushing things a bit far with that, but then it's not like the Empire Builder's service is really all that "enhanced". Really it just never got downgraded like the rest of the LD's, other than getting all the newly refurbed Superliner I sleepers.

But still, even if we use SDS instead of the EB type dining service, why are we settling for maybe having a CCC that may or may not function only as a cafe? Why isn't serious consideration being given to taking more wrecks and putting them into a daily Sunset, which 5 years ago used to pull more sleeper revenue than several other LD trains?

Ok I agree with you on that, the Empire Builder is not exactly a luxury liner. Still there are many other day trains that operate even longer distances that don't have diner or sleeper service. While alot of talk has been about the Cardinal a more comparable example is the PENNSYLVANIAN which used to operate all the way to Chicago but now passengers have to change trains at a very non-convenient hour to the Capitol in Pittsburgh. I honestly don't know if the Pennsylvanian ever ran with sleepers or a diner.. but they certainly only have a cafe car now. At 10 hours, it is very comparable to this San Antonio Stub Train.

To be fair... I'm not sure if this is the BEST way to solve issues, but I think that a train going daily is a very good thing. While the Sunset portion East of San Antonio is losing a diner and sleepers, the Texas Eagle is GAINING a full Diner. I realize in a perfect world both trains could operate more independant of each other and both have full diners etc. but AMTRAK we all know is far from perfect.

NATIVE SON... that was a bit of a low blow to amtrak management, I don't think that College Education had anything to do with this decision.

I realize what I was saying and I stand by it. I just don't give them a whole lot of credit for coming up with something that's in my opinion, too shortsighted.

Remember, what seems to be shortsighted to you may be just the perfect solution to someone else. I doubt if Amtrak management cares much about your secondary education comment and I don't know what kind of business you are in, but the one thing everyone needs to remember is that on forums such as this, all it takes is a computer, connection and the ability to hit a few keys and you can become an instant expert! Isn't technology great?

I know they could care less about what I have to say (hence the nil response to numerous letters over the past few years to various people within the company regarding the whole Sunset East issue), so it's no skin off my back to say what I think...just like what everyone else is doing here. Heck I could be dead wrong...I've been wrong before. I'm not too proud to admit that. I'm in the transportation business, for the record, and my area of expertise, for what it's worth, is the New Orleans/Gulf Coast region. And yes technology is great!

 

[Rail Freak]

Keep it going guys, this is good reading!

DITTO :lol: !!!

RF

 

[wayman]

What I haven't been discussing is Amtraks intention either order some Superliner 3 cars or to order long-distance diner/lounge, coach, and sleeper cars based on the midwest corridor cars. It was indicated to me that one of those sleepers (which is not a Superliner, and may be all roomette with a single H-room) and perhaps a coach will become a through operation connecting to the Texas Sunrise and eventually the City of Miami, should they be delivered.
You guys are concentrating on losing the Sunset Limited. What Amtrak is doing is entirely reconfiguring its midwestern long distance trains and its southern transcon route. This is a huge operation, and it is going to take time. The first stage of this plan, which as I said, is not a foregone conclusion, is extending the Texas Eagle to LAX daily and replacing the Sunset with a day train between San Antonio and New Orleans. Stage two, which if this does happen has about an 85% chance of happening, is the extension of the City of New Orleans to Florida. Stage three, which if both state one and state two happen has about a 50% chance of happening, is the implementation of through cars.

I share GML's hope that there is a multi-stage plan which will ultimately incorporate through-cars (and specifically, a through-sleeper).

I share AlanB's concern that Amtrak has not been very good about explaining their rationale for the plans we've heard about their upcoming production of Fiddler On The Roof ("Sunrise, Sunset"...), which means I'm probably not as optimistic about the through-sleeper's chances as GML (who already points out it's far from a sure thing).

Perhaps the "big announcement in January" will give us news about this.

Or perhaps not.

But until then, all we can do is continue to speculate, which while fascinating doesn't actually lead to us having more information than we did before.

Still, I've got to say, this Sunset thread has been a lot more informative and, by-and-large, non-inflammatory than many previous ones. Go us!

 

[tp49]

If for nothing else related to this plan the one positive (or potentially positive) thing I see is that with the extension of the CONO to Florida there would be a direct connection for the first time in a long time between Florida and Chicago.

 

[tp49]

The one thing everyone needs to remember is that on forums such as this, all it takes is a computer, connection and the ability to hit a few keys and you can become an instant expert! Isn't technology great?

Quoted for truth, I'm going to sig this one This caused me to give my monitor a Coca-Cola shower. Note to self, don't take sip of drink when reading things.

 

[saxman]

Wow, I can't even keep up with this thread. And for the record I'm not going to take sides.

I'm going by memory here, but it was stated by Amtrak personnel at the TEMPO meeting in June that all options were studied: weather it be existing equipment go daily on the Sunset route. This option however (I think) would break the two through cars from the Eagle in SAS. In other words if you come from the Texas Eagle to SAS, you'll have to change in SAS. If anyone wants to sit down and figure out the movement of cars, they can do that.

I believe the current Sunset overnights in NOL for 3 nights actually. (The amount of time it took to go to ORL and back) And I even think the trainset stays in LAX for two days, but I'm not sure. I think the Sunset uses 4 trainsets. The Texas Eagle uses 3 sets. The key was to make daily service along the route without adding equipment. The proposal as it stands now, would require 7 sets of equipment. We have that.

By my count you'd need 5 sets to run daily NOL-LAX, with it overnighting in NOL and turning same day in LAX. Currently the Sunset uses 4 sets of equipment, so we need to find one more from somewhere else. Still not sure if there would be enough to keep through cars from the Eagle.

Ok I lied. I agree with Alan. And I live in Texas too. I think revenue is important to Amtrak and keeping sleepers on the SAS to NOL is important. Sleepers make money. If anyone has the list of cars in BG that are getting repaired, it'd be appreciated. When I sat down a few months ago, I think I determined that there would be enough to make a daily Sunset NOL-LAX (with or without thru cars?) AND have an extra Portland sleeper on the Builder. But I through away my list, and now I wish I hadn't.

 

[saxman]

Ok I did some research and according to this website there are 20 Superliner Cars to be rebuilt. (7 sleepers, 4 diners, 4 lounges, 3 coaches, and 2 dorms) So assuming you need 5 sleepers to go to the Portland section of the Empire Builder, that leaves 1 or 2 sleepers that can go to the extra Sunset trainset needed.

So Dorm, Sleeper, Diner, Lounge, 3 Coaches for the extra Sunset consist needed to go daily, NOL-LAX. Now I have to figure out if there's enough cars for the Eagle to provide its two through cars on a daily basis....tbd

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Ok I did some research and according to this website there are 20 Superliner Cars to be rebuilt. (7 sleepers, 4 diners, 4 lounges, 3 coaches, and 2 dorms) So assuming you need 5 sleepers to go to the Portland section of the Empire Builder, that leaves 1 or 2 sleepers that can go to the extra Sunset trainset needed.
So Dorm, Sleeper, Diner, Lounge, 3 Coaches for the extra Sunset consist needed to go daily, NOL-LAX. Now I have to figure out if there's enough cars for the Eagle to provide its two through cars on a daily basis....tbd

Those EB sleepers will be put on the SEA section and the PDX section gets the CCCs which will be replaced by the diners.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Actually, Micah, I was pretty sure the sleepers are bound for the Portland section, not the Seattle section.

 

[AlanB]

Last I heard, one was bound for Portland and possibly one was bound for the Seattle section. They weren't sure if they could do both, but were hoping to do one for each section.

 

[VentureForth]

Very interesting thread, and even more so is the very heartfelt opinions. Here's my thought. I'm in favor of the new changes. A daily run from CHI to LAX via SAS is great. I don't think it'll pull passengers off the SWC. Of course, and I don't think anyone will disagree, full service into downtown Phoenix is a very big must, and if it can be done, it will only help.

There is currently no "four points" service in the Amtrak system. It's more like a big triangle between Seattle, New York and LA with through services in Chicago, New Orleans, Washington DC, and Emeryville (from a geographic standpoint, not a service standpoint). A "trip around the system" misses thousands of miles in the SE. As the traffic flow patterns in this country are typically SW to/from NE, there is very limited, if any, SE to NW routes. The reason for that is simply economics - the demand isn't as high. Not "there is no demand", but it is not as high.

Currently Miamians MUST travel to WAS to get to LA, and even then it's still a three seat ride. It can't even be booked through NOL as there is an overnight layover. The first choice that comes up actually takes the rider to NYC then CHI to get to LAX!!

I think that if an overnighter can be had between SAS and MIA could be done in 21 hours, it would be awesome. Everyone else north of DC can make it to LA in two seats, so that would make it a real ride from MIA to LAX if it could be done along the old Sunset route. 1 seat from LAX to MIA is NOT necessary, and will only exasberate timekeeping - which, in my opinion, is what REALLY killed the SSL. After all, no one in NY or WAS can get to LA in 1 seat, either.

Both MIA and SAS are suitable for turnaround service and crew bases. This will solve 95% of the current routing problems and will not have to extent the CONO to JAX (they could eventually, that'd just be a bonus for all), and for that matter any of the solutions from NOL to the South.

 

[Guest]

Very interesting thread, and even more so is the very heartfelt opinions. Here's my thought. I'm in favor of the new changes. A daily run from CHI to LAX via SAS is great. I don't think it'll pull passengers off the SWC. Of course, and I don't think anyone will disagree, full service into downtown Phoenix is a very big must, and if it can be done, it will only help.
There is currently no "four points" service in the Amtrak system. It's more like a big triangle between Seattle, New York and LA with through services in Chicago, New Orleans, Washington DC, and Emeryville (from a geographic standpoint, not a service standpoint). A "trip around the system" misses thousands of miles in the SE. As the traffic flow patterns in this country are typically SW to/from NE, there is very limited, if any, SE to NW routes. The reason for that is simply economics - the demand isn't as high. Not "there is no demand", but it is not as high.

Currently Miamians MUST travel to WAS to get to LA, and even then it's still a three seat ride. It can't even be booked through NOL as there is an overnight layover. The first choice that comes up actually takes the rider to NYC then CHI to get to LAX!!

I think that if an overnighter can be had between SAS and MIA could be done in 21 hours, it would be awesome. Everyone else north of DC can make it to LA in two seats, so that would make it a real ride from MIA to LAX if it could be done along the old Sunset route. 1 seat from LAX to MIA is NOT necessary, and will only exasberate timekeeping - which, in my opinion, is what REALLY killed the SSL. After all, no one in NY or WAS can get to LA in 1 seat, either.

Both MIA and SAS are suitable for turnaround service and crew bases. This will solve 95% of the current routing problems and will not have to extent the CONO to JAX (they could eventually, that'd just be a bonus for all), and for that matter any of the solutions from NOL to the South.

What you and many suporters of this plan keep ignoring is the SAS-NOL section. A train out of Chicago going to LA will pass stop in several large metro's;Dallas, Austin, Fort Worth, Little Rock. etc etc. This train will be full with no room for anyone from the SAS-NOL train go west. This will result in a close loop train to the west resulting in poor ridership numbers. 47% of Houston riders currently travel west of SAS.

 

[MattW]

Are you forgetting that this will be a reserved train? It's not like the people will walk up to the vestibule and the conductor will say "Sorry, no more room."

 

[Guest]

Are you forgetting that this will be a reserved train? It's not like the people will walk up to the vestibule and the conductor will say "Sorry, no more room."

Lets say there will be 3 sleepers and 3 coaches on each daily CHI-SAS-LAX. There is 8 million people along SAS-NOL route, counting SAS.

About three times as many between SAS-CHI, counting CHI. Then you must count those west of SAS wanting to go west.

What kind of chance does anyone have in makiing a reservation with this many people on a limited capacity train?

reservations will be 5 years long. And walk on's can forget it. This will look good on paper for Amtrak, but Amtrak will

lose a lot of customers/supporters. Why support Amtrak when you can't book a ride without waiting years.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'd think that most folks close to CHI will ride the SWC to LAX instead of the Eagle/Sunset. There's really no chance the train will be sold out of sleeper space all the time, I ride this train pretty often and it might be full a few weeks a year,

of course I'll grant you there will be times that the SAS-LAX and vice versa will be sold out, that happens now with the thrice weekly service but not even the Western trains sell out every day! It'll be interesting to see what finally happens,

I favor daily trains but till we see I'll say that I think Alan may be correct!

 

[henryj]

Are you forgetting that this will be a reserved train? It's not like the people will walk up to the vestibule and the conductor will say "Sorry, no more room."

Lets say there will be 3 sleepers and 3 coaches on each daily CHI-SAS-LAX. There is 8 million people along SAS-NOL route, counting SAS.

About three times as many between SAS-CHI, counting CHI. Then you must count those west of SAS wanting to go west.

What kind of chance does anyone have in makiing a reservation with this many people on a limited capacity train?

reservations will be 5 years long. And walk on's can forget it. This will look good on paper for Amtrak, but Amtrak will

lose a lot of customers/supporters. Why support Amtrak when you can't book a ride without waiting years.

All this exists now and the train is three times a week west of SAS. So what's your point? The train only has two sleepers and three coaches west of SAS now and the Eagle only carries one sleeper and two coaches. A more accurate consist would be one sleeper, one trans dorm, two coaches and the lounge and diner for the entire route. But with daily operation this still increases capacity around 50% on the route west of SAS. They may add capacity in SAS for the route west, who knows. The trains are all reserved space so there will not be people showing up from Houston with no seat west of SAS. People get on and get off all along the route. Your logic is somewhat flawed.

 

[saxman]

Are you forgetting that this will be a reserved train? It's not like the people will walk up to the vestibule and the conductor will say "Sorry, no more room."

Lets say there will be 3 sleepers and 3 coaches on each daily CHI-SAS-LAX. There is 8 million people along SAS-NOL route, counting SAS.

About three times as many between SAS-CHI, counting CHI. Then you must count those west of SAS wanting to go west.

What kind of chance does anyone have in makiing a reservation with this many people on a limited capacity train?

reservations will be 5 years long. And walk on's can forget it. This will look good on paper for Amtrak, but Amtrak will

lose a lot of customers/supporters. Why support Amtrak when you can't book a ride without waiting years.

This is a moot point. Unless a whole bunch of people book a reservation from Little Rock to El Paso and sell out the train, this won't be a problem. What's to stop a whole bunch of people from booking Houston to LAX and they sell out that part of the train keeping the Little Rock people from booking their trip. It doesn't matter either way. They're reserved seats and rooms. Based on this logic people won't be able to transfer from the Empire Builder to the Coast Starlight because the the CS is sold out from people coming from Seattle and points north of Portland. Same thing can be said for any connection. People aren't going sell out the Sunset/Eagle west of SAS and prevent a connecting passenger from boarding. If a seat is available, it's going to be available. Sure if you book your trip the same day of travel on the day before Thanksgiving, you might have a problem, but you'd have a problem with that anywhere in the system.