Sunset Limited BULLETIN

[BlakeTyner]

I'm glad for those that want this service to commence. My fierce objection is the Amcan train with its nuclear reactor they call an oven that will be the sole source of food, (and probably first class seats on one end) for the 15 hour journey between NOL and SAS. Been there, done that and honestly thought we were radiation free when the City went to Superliner. I'm sure someone on here remembers Mother Henry Knowles and his nuclear re-actor in the Am-dinette on the City when it was single level. BAH-HUMBUG !!!

The new Texas Eagle will have a full diner and staffed Sightseer Lounge restored--the Sunset's equipment would be added to the new Eagle pool. I'm not sure if Amtrak would take the Eagle's CCC's and put them on the SAS-NOL train, use a snack coach, or what, but it does free up some CCC's. Even if the corridor train doesn't get them, maybe the CONO would be able to run with two of them permanently (one being unstaffed, of course.) Does it make up for the loss of the Sightseer? No. But it adds table capacity, which is better than a kick in the rump.

I'm surprised at the reaction to this. The Sunset Route west of San Antonio remains the same--same cities being served, probably at more convenient times, and daily with sleepers.

The only real change is that service east of San Antonio will be coach/business class with a cross-platform transfer (although early on, it was rumored that the daily Texas Eagle would be split in SAS.) Still, it's daily service with connections to Chicago and Los Angeles.

The thing about "rushing" this, vis-a-vis the crews, is that essentially nothing is changing. There are already crews qualified for the route(s), as they're doing it right now. The only real change is making it one long-distance train instead of two, and subbing in a corridor train for the service to NOL. Edited: well, actually, I guess I can see this objection, as the increased frequency would mean more engineers and conductors, I'd assume.

I'm all for the restoration of service east of NOL, but it will probably have to be an extension of the CONO. The upshot to that scenario is that, like the new Eagle, the route would be long enough to justify a restoration of full diner and staffed lounge service. So you'd end up with a daily, full service train on the old Sunset Limited route east of NOL. Yes, it would mean a couple of transfers (getting on board the corridor train in NOL and then aboard the Eagle at SAS) but it's pretty painless, and IMHO a small price to pay for a significant upgrade in frequency and amenities.

 

[had8ley]

I'm glad for those that want this service to commence. My fierce objection is the Amcan train with its nuclear reactor they call an oven that will be the sole source of food, (and probably first class seats on one end) for the 15 hour journey between NOL and SAS. Been there, done that and honestly thought we were radiation free when the City went to Superliner. I'm sure someone on here remembers Mother Henry Knowles and his nuclear re-actor in the Am-dinette on the City when it was single level. BAH-HUMBUG !!!

The new Texas Eagle will have a full diner and staffed Sightseer Lounge restored--the Sunset's equipment would be added to the new Eagle pool. I'm not sure if Amtrak would take the Eagle's CCC's and put them on the SAS-NOL train, use a snack coach, or what, but it does free up some CCC's. Even if the corridor train doesn't get them, maybe the CONO would be able to run with two of them permanently (one being unstaffed, of course.) Does it make up for the loss of the Sightseer? No. But it adds table capacity, which is better than a kick in the rump.

I'm surprised at the reaction to this. The Sunset Route west of San Antonio remains the same--same cities being served, probably at more convenient times, and daily with sleepers.

The only real change is that service east of San Antonio will be coach/business class with a cross-platform transfer (although early on, it was rumored that the daily Texas Eagle would be split in SAS.) Still, it's daily service with connections to Chicago and Los Angeles.

The thing about "rushing" this, vis-a-vis the crews, is that essentially nothing is changing. There are already crews qualified for the route(s), as they're doing it right now. The only real change is making it one long-distance train instead of two, and subbing in a corridor train for the service to NOL.

I'm all for the restoration of service east of NOL, but it will probably have to be an extension of the CONO. The upshot to that scenario is that, like the new Eagle, the route would be long enough to justify a restoration of full diner and staffed lounge service. So you'd end up with a daily, full service train on the old Sunset Limited route east of NOL. Yes, it would mean a couple of transfers (getting on board the corridor train in NOL and then aboard the Eagle at SAS) but it's pretty painless, and IMHO a small price to pay for a significant upgrade in frequency and amenities.

I fully respect your observation but the unknown is what bothers me. We don't know for sure if the stub train is going to be bi-level and take a CCC. Another thing that could happen is the Crescent goes to an Am-dinette to protect the SAS train. There are just too many variables on this end to placate the NOL populus that has been listening to the worst PR on the planet about "starting" trains. If, indeed we go single level three car train I firmly believe we're going to have more crew than pax. Then Amtrak will have further reason to truncate the Sunset in SAS. Need I say more ???

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I'm glad for those that want this service to commence. My fierce objection is the Amcan train with its nuclear reactor they call an oven that will be the sole source of food, (and probably first class seats on one end) for the 15 hour journey between NOL and SAS. Been there, done that and honestly thought we were radiation free when the City went to Superliner. I'm sure someone on here remembers Mother Henry Knowles and his nuclear re-actor in the Am-dinette on the City when it was single level. BAH-HUMBUG !!!

The new Texas Eagle will have a full diner and staffed Sightseer Lounge restored--the Sunset's equipment would be added to the new Eagle pool. I'm not sure if Amtrak would take the Eagle's CCC's and put them on the SAS-NOL train, use a snack coach, or what, but it does free up some CCC's. Even if the corridor train doesn't get them, maybe the CONO would be able to run with two of them permanently (one being unstaffed, of course.) Does it make up for the loss of the Sightseer? No. But it adds table capacity, which is better than a kick in the rump.

I'm surprised at the reaction to this. The Sunset Route west of San Antonio remains the same--same cities being served, probably at more convenient times, and daily with sleepers.

The only real change is that service east of San Antonio will be coach/business class with a cross-platform transfer (although early on, it was rumored that the daily Texas Eagle would be split in SAS.) Still, it's daily service with connections to Chicago and Los Angeles.

The thing about "rushing" this, vis-a-vis the crews, is that essentially nothing is changing. There are already crews qualified for the route(s), as they're doing it right now. The only real change is making it one long-distance train instead of two, and subbing in a corridor train for the service to NOL. Edited: well, actually, I guess I can see this objection, as the increased frequency would mean more engineers and conductors, I'd assume.

I'm all for the restoration of service east of NOL, but it will probably have to be an extension of the CONO. The upshot to that scenario is that, like the new Eagle, the route would be long enough to justify a restoration of full diner and staffed lounge service. So you'd end up with a daily, full service train on the old Sunset Limited route east of NOL. Yes, it would mean a couple of transfers (getting on board the corridor train in NOL and then aboard the Eagle at SAS) but it's pretty painless, and IMHO a small price to pay for a significant upgrade in frequency and amenities.

When you take into account extra board crew, and the fact that the crews only work 3 days a week in each direction there are probably more than enough to run the train daily without hiring anyone. The main obstacle would be aligning crew rotations and schedules, because if no new crew are hired there would be few extra crews sitting around should a crew go dead due to delays or any other unforeseeable problem.

 

[Rob_C]

If this happens would Amtrak have to list NOL to JAX stops on the schedule of the new stub train in order to keep that option open? If they did not, wouldn't that be letting CSX know they are releasing that line?

 

[henryj]

If this happens would Amtrak have to list NOL to JAX stops on the schedule of the new stub train in order to keep that option open? If they did not, wouldn't that be letting CSX know they are releasing that line?

An interesting question. Since they have never formally discontinued the Sunset east of NOL what will become of that route on the maps and the timetables?

This for Had8ley, the coach trains are to be superliner equipment from the Sunset/Eagle pool. That was the criteria for making these changes. They had to use only existing equipment. Still open to speculation is what they will do for food service. I would hope they include a CCC on the coach trains as they are really nice, but who knows. I would assume the Eagles will now have a full diner and lounge.

By going daily you will have an increase in capacity of over 50% on the current Sunset Route or maybe more depending on car assignments.

 

[BlakeTyner]

I fully respect your observation but the unknown is what bothers me. We don't know for sure if the stub train is going to be bi-level and take a CCC. Another thing that could happen is the Crescent goes to an Am-dinette to protect the SAS train. There are just too many variables on this end to placate the NOL populus that has been listening to the worst PR on the planet about "starting" trains. If, indeed we go single level three car train I firmly believe we're going to have more crew than pax. Then Amtrak will have further reason to truncate the Sunset in SAS. Need I say more ???

Understood, sir. Of course there are never any absolutes when it comes to Amtrak, but from what I understand, the stub train will be Superliner-equipped; that's been a part of the plan since the beginning. You're absolutely right about what gets said versus what gets done, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I think this is going to be a very good thing, particularly since the Texas Eagle is revenue managed at the local level instead of at corporate. Of course, not even THAT is guaranteed--it remains at the discretion of the Amtrak president, but I wouldn't think they'd want to mess with something that has been working so well for years.

I absolutely support rail service to other parts of the state (and country) but from my end, as a supporter of the Texas Eagle, this is excellent news. If it works as planned, I think it will be a good thing for the Sunset route, too.

 

[Rail Freak]

Rookie Question.

If they change the schedule ( depart & arrive times) in the spring, how would this affect folks with reservations already booked?

RF

 

[the_traveler]

Rookie Question.If they change the schedule ( depart & arrive times) in the spring, how would this affect folks with reservations already booked?

RF

Rookie Answer! :lol:

If Amtrak changes times for a scheduled run, they contact those previously scheduled passengers to notify them of the change(s). If they say it is inconvenient and can't be used, they may either

1. Reschedule to a different date
   
2. Reschedule to a different route (Example - instead of connecting CHI-LAX on the TE, taking the SWC CHI-LAX)
   
3. Cancel the trip
   

all without penalty!

 

[Rail Freak]

Rookie Question.If they change the schedule ( depart & arrive times) in the spring, how would this affect folks with reservations already booked?

RF

Rookie Answer! :lol:

If Amtrak changes times for a scheduled run, they contact those previously scheduled passengers to notify them of the change(s). If they say it is inconvenient and can't be used, they may either

1. Reschedule to a different date
   
2. Reschedule to a different route (Example - instead of connecting CHI-LAX on the TE, taking the SWC CHI-LAX)
   
3. Cancel the trip
   

all without penalty!

I was thinkin maybe they would give me 200,000 agr pts. so I could travel like you for the next month or two! :lol:

RF

 

[AlanB]

Alan, you said give an example of pax staying on the train upon arrival, SAS is it with the sleeper and coach cut out for overnight awaiting the Sunset departure! IINM the crew aboard the cut outs are paid to stay aboard all night!

While I applaud your attempt, that's not a valid example. Those are through cars, that are attached to a terminating train. I want an example of a terminating train where passengers are allowed to remain onboard. There is no such animal within the Amtrak system. Everytime a train reaches the bumper block, the crew stops being paid and leaves the train ASAP.

 

[AlanB]

Frankly Henry, the more I think about this, the worse I think this plan will be for Texas. But I'm beginning to believe that this is an attempt by Amtrak to drop the money loosing Sunset. It wouldn't surprise me if within 5 years of implimentation to see Amtrak turn to Texas and say "hey this daily train is really a service for Texas. If you want it to continue, you have to pay the losses. Otherwise we're going to cancel the train."

Alan I just don't share you negative thoughts. Amtrak is entering a new era where passenger trains are relavent to the whole transportation picture. TXDOT has set up a passenger rail division for the first time ever. Our Senator KBH is a big Amtrak supporter and is now running for Governor. I see this as a great leap forward for Texas. If it's some kind of plot to drop the Sunset Route service then you can kiss all long distance trains goodbye and that would be political suicide for Amtrak. This decision was not made overnight and it's not some knee jerk reaction. The Sunset Route was included in Amtrak's RPI in the March Amtrak Ink where they made this statement: "We need to re-engineer every aspect of this train. That means redirecting everything from food to scheduling to Marketing--so that it's more customer-oriented. We're conduction a total examination of the existing model to better match customer expectations, maximize revenue opportunities and get the most out of this service" I see these developments as the end result of those studies. The I10 route between SAS-HOU-NOL is heavily congested. Daily service along this route can't help but succeed. We should all be getting behind these changes. It's a first step for Texas and a good one. Better things are coming.

Henry,

I sure hope that you are right, but frankly I'm not convinced. And I don't believe for one minute that ridership in Texas on the Sunset route will increase enough to offset the lost revenue by not having sleepers and through cars. Especially since Amtrak didn't study the issue.

And I disagree that dropping the Sunset route would mean that Amtrak kisses all LD's goodbye. Getting rid of the Sunset would get an albatross off of Amtrak's neck. Anytime John McCain or any other Amtrak hater talks about Amtrak, what's the first thing that they trot out? The $435, or whatever the number is, per passenger that it costs Amtrak to move those passengers on the Sunset Limited. We don't hear that nonsense for any other LD route, only the Sunset.

Next, while perhaps overnight isn't the correct word, it still is funny that restoring the Sunset east will take 3 years after money is found, yet this will happen within a year if it goes on the April TT. That's still rushing things by Amtrak's way of thinking.

While I wouldn't argue that the planned changes for the EB are good, I strongly suspect that if those changes were cancelled, and the bulk of equipment coming from the Stimulus wreck repairs was sent to the Sunset, I'd bet that a daily Sunset with full mix of equipment would be possible at least NOL-LAX. After all, remember that currently one trainset sits in NOL for two days. Yes, if the Sunset is restored east of NOL, then there wouldn't be enough equipment for that. But without an identified funding source currently and based on Amtrak's projections, we're at least 3 to 4 years away from any chance of service being restored east. More than enough time to get more equipment.

So why isn't this being considered?

Because it won't make Amtrak enough money, or at least that's how the thinking is going IMHO. But alas, we have no studies to look at to see one way or the other. Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Texas will eventually be asked to pay for the "new" service. Amtrak thinks that they are getting the best of both worlds. More revenue from the EB, and the Sunset albatross off it's neck with Texas paying for the new train.

 

[had8ley]

So why isn't this being considered?
Because it won't make Amtrak enough money, or at least that's how the thinking is going IMHO. But alas, we have no studies to look at to see one way or the other. Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Texas will eventually be asked to pay for the "new" service. Amtrak thinks that they are getting the best of both worlds. More revenue from the EB, and the Sunset albatross off it's neck with Texas paying for the new train.

I am elated that the Sunset, or whatever handle Amtrak chooses to give it, is going 7 days west of San Antonio Alan. But I still think your analysis would add fuel to the fire that if the Sunset, without through sleepers and with possibly single level service, would give McCain and Amtrak some powerful ammunition to kill service east of San Antonio if the stub train flops. It would be a grand slam for Amtrak with Texas bearing the brunt. In the meantime what happened to the Crescent going to SAS? Sure would solve a lot of the problems associated with the stub train.

 

[AlanB]

I'm surprised at the reaction to this. The Sunset Route west of San Antonio remains the same--same cities being served, probably at more convenient times, and daily with sleepers.

And I would never argue that it's a win for the cities west of San Antonio. This is something that has been needed for a long time for those cities. About the only thing that Amtrak could do now to make things better west of SAS, would be to pay UP to fix things such that the Sunset can reach downtown Phoenix.

The worry is what this does to the cities east of San Antonio and just how much of a ridership drop off will occur because those who used to board in LA and other western most cities to reach NOL can no longer do so with a one seat ride. And especially for those who pay the most to enjoy the comfort of their sleeper to cities east of SAS.

The only real change is that service east of San Antonio will be coach/business class with a cross-platform transfer (although early on, it was rumored that the daily Texas Eagle would be split in SAS.) Still, it's daily service with connections to Chicago and Los Angeles.

We already know from the Cardinal's example that people don't like to change trains, even when it's a cross-platform transfer. When the Cardinal went from Superliner to single level and was extended to NY, it's ridership soared. Despite a poor departure time from NY, it leaves before 7:00 AM.

The thing about "rushing" this, vis-a-vis the crews, is that essentially nothing is changing. There are already crews qualified for the route(s), as they're doing it right now. The only real change is making it one long-distance train instead of two, and subbing in a corridor train for the service to NOL. Edited: well, actually, I guess I can see this objection, as the increased frequency would mean more engineers and conductors, I'd assume.

There aren't enough crews to run 2 trains per day 7 days a week west of SAS.

I'm all for the restoration of service east of NOL, but it will probably have to be an extension of the CONO. The upshot to that scenario is that, like the new Eagle, the route would be long enough to justify a restoration of full diner and staffed lounge service. So you'd end up with a daily, full service train on the old Sunset Limited route east of NOL. Yes, it would mean a couple of transfers (getting on board the corridor train in NOL and then aboard the Eagle at SAS) but it's pretty painless, and IMHO a small price to pay for a significant upgrade in frequency and amenities.

I won't deny that it is likely that the CONO could well be how service is restored along the Gulf Coast, and that it does have some advantages, in terms of giving people in Chicago and just south of there another way to reach Florida. The problem IMHO is that it really cuts the ridership from the west. Perhaps people living in Texas wanting to go to Florida will still take the train. But most people west of San Antonio aren't going to want to make 2 transfers now to go from LA to Orlando. And again, people don't like transfers.

 

[AlanB]

If this happens would Amtrak have to list NOL to JAX stops on the schedule of the new stub train in order to keep that option open? If they did not, wouldn't that be letting CSX know they are releasing that line?

An interesting question. Since they have never formally discontinued the Sunset east of NOL what will become of that route on the maps and the timetables?

Agreed, and I have no idea how this might affect that issue. Wonder if that was even considered.

 

[henryj]

Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Texas will eventually be asked to pay for the "new" service. Amtrak thinks that they are getting the best of both worlds. More revenue from the EB, and the Sunset albatross off it's neck with Texas paying for the new train.

Alan, I appreciate your in depth knowledge on the subject and we could debate this forever. However, apparently this is what we are going to get for better or worse. Which is why I am saying lets get behind it and make sure it is a success. It's not a done deal yet as they still have to get by the negotiations with the UP and they could torpedo the whole thing. I agree the coach train with a transfer in SAS could be a bit shaky. But the contrary is it's daily and it runs at decent times which doesn't happen now. When Amtrak gets it's shop in order we could see the addition of through cars between NOL and LAX. Just remember a through sleeper requires actually five more cars for daily service. So to institute a daily through coach and sleeper would require something like five sleepers and at least three more coaches. Yes they could have instituted a daily Sunset as it is with the addition of one more complete set of equipment. But they have decided to go with the Eagle instead. I am to the point where I don't care how they do it or what they call the train. Daily trumps everything else. Sorry about NOL east, but I believe that void will be filled with an extended CONO as it only takes one more set to do it due to the long layover the CONO equipment has in NOL. Any thoughts of a reinstated transcontinental Sunset I believe are dead forever so lets get behind what is realistic. I don't know why they went this route but at this point I don't care. If this change was to fail and they continue to run the Sunset just as it is the train will for sure be gone. What amazes me is that ridership on the Sunset has held up as well as it has. Given that, with the improved scheduling and daily service I think ridershipe will soar and so will revenues. I don't see any plots by Amtrak to get money from the state or downgrade the service so they can discontinue it. Actually just the opposite. They are finally addressing what needs to be done on this route. But, as for state support, Texas already supports the Heartland Flyer and with all the studies being done and advocacy groups being formed, it is just a matter of time before Texas begins to come around and add and fund more rail service. This hopefully, will be the catalyst for that.

 

[Guest]

Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Texas will eventually be asked to pay for the "new" service. Amtrak thinks that they are getting the best of both worlds. More revenue from the EB, and the Sunset albatross off it's neck with Texas paying for the new train.

Alan, I appreciate your in depth knowledge on the subject and we could debate this forever. However, apparently this is what we are going to get for better or worse. Which is why I am saying lets get behind it and make sure it is a success. It's not a done deal yet as they still have to get by the negotiations with the UP and they could torpedo the whole thing. I agree the coach train with a transfer in SAS could be a bit shaky. But the contrary is it's daily and it runs at decent times which doesn't happen now. When Amtrak gets it's shop in order we could see the addition of through cars between NOL and LAX. Just remember a through sleeper requires actually five more cars for daily service. So to institute a daily through coach and sleeper would require something like five sleepers and at least three more coaches. Yes they could have instituted a daily Sunset as it is with the addition of one more complete set of equipment. But they have decided to go with the Eagle instead. I am to the point where I don't care how they do it or what they call the train. Daily trumps everything else. Sorry about NOL east, but I believe that void will be filled with an extended CONO as it only takes one more set to do it due to the long layover the CONO equipment has in NOL. Any thoughts of a reinstated transcontinental Sunset I believe are dead forever so lets get behind what is realistic. I don't know why they went this route but at this point I don't care. If this change was to fail and they continue to run the Sunset just as it is the train will for sure be gone. What amazes me is that ridership on the Sunset has held up as well as it has. Given that, with the improved scheduling and daily service I think ridershipe will soar and so will revenues. I don't see any plots by Amtrak to get money from the state or downgrade the service so they can discontinue it. Actually just the opposite. They are finally addressing what needs to be done on this route. But, as for state support, Texas already supports the Heartland Flyer and with all the studies being done and advocacy groups being formed, it is just a matter of time before Texas begins to come around and add and fund more rail service. This hopefully, will be the catalyst for that.

Would you also accept anything thrown on your dinner plate too? Accepting anything thrown at you will result in disappointment.

This is an insane idea by Amtrak. The Eagle and Sunset(nol-lax) should both be daily LD trains with through Eagle sleepers in both directions.(east and west)

The equipment does not exist today, but it could with stimulus money.

 

[BlakeTyner]

Everyone's made some excellent points, but I think Henry's right; this seems to be what's going to happen, and the best thing we can do is hope for the best. If it works, hopefully it can be the catalyst for improved service not just in Texas, but elsewhere, too. My main reason for optimism is that TEMPO is involved--not just because it's a 'local' group for me, but because I think those guys and gals have really done a wonderful job for the past decade or so. I don't know for sure, but I'd assume that one of the selling points for the new daily Eagle was this group and their past performance.

I know enough to know that I shouldn't make any predictions about whether the effort will increase revenue or ridership, and I'll eat my share of crow if this turns out badly.

 

[MattW]

Hrm, if there's daily service NOL-LAX, then that could mean faster travel time. I ran the current schedules and WAS-LAX means you leave Wednesday and either arrive Saturday or Sunday morning depending on if you go through Chicago or New Orleans respectively. If this new train gets you there at least at the same time as connecting through Chicago, then perhaps this could be a push to improved service on the Crescent and it would give people another good option going transcontinental.

Does anyone have a hypothetical schedule of the NOL-SAN-LAX trains this would entail?

 

[AlanB]

My main reason for optimism is that TEMPO is involved--not just because it's a 'local' group for me, but because I think those guys and gals have really done a wonderful job for the past decade or so.

I wouldn't argue this at all. They have done a wonderful job, it's shame that there aren't more organizations like TEMPO.

I don't know for sure, but I'd assume that one of the selling points for the new daily Eagle was this group and their past performance.

This I'm not so sure about. I can't imagine how they could promote the Eagle anymore than they already do. And it won't be their job to promote the Eagle in AZ and NM. And to my knowledge this wasn't their idea, this grew out of a CA rail group's initiative.

 

[AlanB]

Hrm, if there's daily service NOL-LAX, then that could mean faster travel time. I ran the current schedules and WAS-LAX means you leave Wednesday and either arrive Saturday or Sunday morning depending on if you go through Chicago or New Orleans respectively. If this new train gets you there at least at the same time as connecting through Chicago, then perhaps this could be a push to improved service on the Crescent and it would give people another good option going transcontinental.Does anyone have a hypothetical schedule of the NOL-SAN-LAX trains this would entail?

I can't being to imagine how this change would improve travel times. No matter what, you will still have to overnight in New Orleans. The Crescent gets in at 8:00 PM, and a daily train would have to leave early that morning, long before the Crescent would arrive.

So travel times will be the same, since going via Chicago means that one doesn't need to spend a night on the ground, while going through NOL you will have to spend a night on the ground.

 

[AlanB]

Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Texas will eventually be asked to pay for the "new" service. Amtrak thinks that they are getting the best of both worlds. More revenue from the EB, and the Sunset albatross off it's neck with Texas paying for the new train.

Alan, I appreciate your in depth knowledge on the subject and we could debate this forever. However, apparently this is what we are going to get for better or worse. Which is why I am saying lets get behind it and make sure it is a success. It's not a done deal yet as they still have to get by the negotiations with the UP and they could torpedo the whole thing. I agree the coach train with a transfer in SAS could be a bit shaky. But the contrary is it's daily and it runs at decent times which doesn't happen now. When Amtrak gets it's shop in order we could see the addition of through cars between NOL and LAX. Just remember a through sleeper requires actually five more cars for daily service. So to institute a daily through coach and sleeper would require something like five sleepers and at least three more coaches. Yes they could have instituted a daily Sunset as it is with the addition of one more complete set of equipment. But they have decided to go with the Eagle instead. I am to the point where I don't care how they do it or what they call the train. Daily trumps everything else. Sorry about NOL east, but I believe that void will be filled with an extended CONO as it only takes one more set to do it due to the long layover the CONO equipment has in NOL. Any thoughts of a reinstated transcontinental Sunset I believe are dead forever so lets get behind what is realistic. I don't know why they went this route but at this point I don't care. If this change was to fail and they continue to run the Sunset just as it is the train will for sure be gone. What amazes me is that ridership on the Sunset has held up as well as it has. Given that, with the improved scheduling and daily service I think ridershipe will soar and so will revenues. I don't see any plots by Amtrak to get money from the state or downgrade the service so they can discontinue it. Actually just the opposite. They are finally addressing what needs to be done on this route. But, as for state support, Texas already supports the Heartland Flyer and with all the studies being done and advocacy groups being formed, it is just a matter of time before Texas begins to come around and add and fund more rail service. This hopefully, will be the catalyst for that.

Henry,

And I certainly appreciate your views and all that you've written on this topic.

However, I'm sorry to say that until such time as this plan does become reality, I will continue to shout from the rooftops that I think it a terrible plan. Sorry. As long as there is even the slighest chance that Amtrak will reconsider this IMHO misguided plan, then I must continue to persist.

Once it is on the TT and the first trains turn a wheel, then and only then will it get my support. And support it I will because the futher alternatives are even worse. But that still doesn't make this a good plan.

As for a transcontinental Sunset, I fail to see how such a return can be considered dead, when Amtrak included that very scenario in the plan submitted to Congress.

And no, they aren't addressing what needs to be done to this route. If they were, then the Eagle would be left alone and the extra equipment would be going to the current Sunset to make it daily. I think that we can both agree that in a perfect world, that would be the ideal choice. Yes?

 

[henryj]

If they were, then the Eagle would be left alone and the extra equipment would be going to the current Sunset to make it daily. I think that we can both agree that in a perfect world, that would be the ideal choice. Yes?

Sigh, yes it would but it's not to be. I think Katrina just did it in. New Orleans just dropped off the map as far as ridership. I think it has hurt the CONO and the Crescent too, but I don't have any stats to back that up. Florida was a big traffic generator for travel east of SAS. The combination of the UP melt down and Katrina just did it in. We can protest all we want, but nothing is going to change. In fact protesting it will just hurt the current service and the proposed changes more. Being in Texas I just have a different take on this than those that lost their train east of NOL. I want daily service and I want a train through Houston. This gives it to us. The world is not perfect so we have to take what we can get.

There is no extra equipment regarding this switch by the way. My understanding is they had to make this happen(daily service) with the equipment pool they now have from the combined trains. Going daily with the Eagle and running a coach train east was the only way they could come up with to do it. Any other scenario would have required more equipment.

People on the Gulf Coast east are going to have a hard road ahead. With the PTC requirements coming up CSX will probably want to downgrade some of the little used sections of the route. To put a train back on that route is going to take some extra $$$$. Additionally, the advocacy groups over there want day trains, corridor type trains and they don't give a hoot about an overnight train like the Sunset was. This was our problem from the start in trying to get the Sunset back east. They want something different. I guess now they have it.............nothing.

My personal view is this has been brewing for a long time in the back rooms at Amtrak. When we first started up SMART, what.....two years ago, Joy Smith of Amtrak told me in a weak moment......."think daily, forget Florida". I tried to tell people back then, but no one would listen. They kept throwing up the Florida thing until the Amtrak people just refused to come to anymore of their meetings. In fact they walked out of the last meeting they attended with SMART. So now we have what we have. My suggestion is to live with it and make it work.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

If they were, then the Eagle would be left alone and the extra equipment would be going to the current Sunset to make it daily. I think that we can both agree that in a perfect world, that would be the ideal choice. Yes?

Sigh, yes it would but it's not to be. I think Katrina just did it in. New Orleans just dropped off the map as far as ridership. I think it has hurt the CONO and the Crescent too, but I don't have any stats to back that up.

The stats disagree with you:

Passengers (FY2008) 154,532 ▲ 23% (Amtrak)

While Katrina may have affected ridership, even put a severe impact, I'd say a 23% gain in ridership is proof that NOL intends to come back "on the map"...

 

[AlanB]

New Orleans just dropped off the map as far as ridership. I think it has hurt the CONO and the Crescent too, but I don't have any stats to back that up.

I can help with that.

Note that all numbers represent Amtrak's fiscal year which ends in September of the year, not a calendar year.

Sunset

2004: 96,426

2005: 81,348

2006: 51,860

2007: 63,336

2008: 71,719

2009: 73,134 *

CONO

2004: 190,017

2005: 183,237

2006: 175,237

2007: 180,473

2008: 197,394

2009: 182,185 *

Crescent

2004: 256,577

2005: 263,080

2006: 252,072

2007: 263,136

2008: 291,222

2009: 265,672 *

* Indicates that the data represents the first 11 months of fiscal 2009, the data for the final month has not yet been released by Amtrak.

There is no extra equipment regarding this switch by the way. My understanding is they had to make this happen(daily service) with the equipment pool they now have from the combined trains. Going daily with the Eagle and running a coach train east was the only way they could come up with to do it. Any other scenario would have required more equipment.

I could well be wrong on this, but I seem to recall that the plan that I saw indicated that they would be getting at least a few of the wreck repairs in order to make this possible. As I already mentioned, they won't be getting all, as a bunch of equipment is earmarked for the EB, but again I'm pretty sure that they are getting at least a few cars.

 

[nferr]

If you're going Westbound from Houston the coach run is only a couple of hundred miles to San Antonio. Eastbound from Houston to NOL is about 350 miles. I think either run is fine for a day coach only train. I do think the entire run NOL to SAS is kind of long on a coach only train at about 550 miles but doable. The tradeoff is getting daily daytime service. I do hope they put some kind of Diner-Lite on it instead of just a snack bar but looking at the Palmetto I doubt it.