Sunset Early Arrival

[Anderson]

The only countries with city spacing on the scale of the US are the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, and China); (the long southern parts of Argentina and Chile are largely unoccupied). Brazil simply doesn't have a passenger rail network anymore (there's one line in one part of the country), which really only leaves China, India, and Russia. And India...definitely qualifies for this. Bombay-Calcutta is around 1200 miles. Shanghai-Beijing is about 1000 miles, and Guangzhou-Beijing (I'm using this as a proxy for Hong Kong) is around 1350 miles. And Russia is Russia.

Hmm, what about Canada and Australia? If Kazakhstan had major cities on the east and western end of the country, they could be 1500 miles apart.

Anyway, I agree with your previous post about the limits imposed by a once a day LD train network. With a intercity passenger train system that is skeletal at best outside of the Northeast, Midwest, California, NW corridors, impossible to schedule the trains to arrive and depart at all the major cities at convenient hours. Amtrak has to accommodate a limited number of connection options as best as they can.

When UP finishes the double tracking from LA to El Paso and the projects in CA, the westbound SL may end up arriving LA at 3:30 AM. What would happen if the westbound SL schedule were to be shifted to 2 hours later? Back to a longer layover in SAS for the TE, but the TE CHI-SAS schedule could be shifted with an hour later departure from CHI. Which, of course, impacts on the slot availability in CHI and the CHI-STL corridor schedules. With only 15 LD trains, there is a complex ripple effect on any change.

I'm somewhat embarrassed at forgetting Canada. Australia's situation is a bit more of a mess because of all the gauge breaks. Kazakhstan and a few others might make the list, but for a lack of either rail networks or, in some cases, relevant cities.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

I would not mind if a train arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada at 4:30 AM, At least there would be a train!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Aloha

I would not mind if a train arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada at 4:30 AM, At least there would be a train!

Plus Las Vegas at 4:30 in the morning will be every bit as busy as at 4:30 in the afternoon!

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

I would not mind if a train arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada at 4:30 AM, At least there would be a train!

Plus Las Vegas at 4:30 in the morning will be every bit as busy as at 4:30 in the afternoon!

:giggle: Actually 4:30 in the morning might be busier, especially in the summer. :lol:

Aloha

 

[Anderson]

Aloha

I would not mind if a train arrived in Las Vegas, Nevada at 4:30 AM, At least there would be a train!

Plus Las Vegas at 4:30 in the morning will be every bit as busy as at 4:30 in the afternoon!

:giggle: Actually 4:30 in the morning might be busier, especially in the summer. :lol:

Aloha

Joking aside, Vegas is one of those few "24 hour" cities out there, and probably the only one that is tourist-oriented in a real way. I expect I would have no problem getting a cab or a hotel shuttle of some sort in the middle of the night without too much warning there (whereas I expect that it would be a mild hassle in, say, LA). It is one of the few places that a middle-of-the-night service would probably work out decently well.

As to 66/67, that's a funny case. First, it's not really aimed at NYP after a fashion...it's aimed at the BOS-WAS market. Second, 66/67 is one of many trains along the NEC (and really, just about anywhere it makes an "insane hour" calling...it's "decent hour" stops on th Virginia Peninsula are about the only places it's one of less than five trains per day making a stop). 66/67 gets business because it is one service of many along the line, so one can use it to get to DC/Boston for a morning meeting from the other end of the corridor and then grab an Acela or a Regional (at one's preference) back.

Again, to my point...the Zephyr hitting SLC at 3:30 AM wouldn't be so bad if we still had something like DRG&W's Prospector leaving at a sane hour, or even for that matter if there was a train hitting Ogden (or Provo) at a decent hour and with a transfer (Ogden could be handled by offering a one-way Ambus-style ticket on FrontRunner). Yes, you would lose some traffic on the transfer, but the presence of one arrival at a decent hour in each direction would do wonders. The same can be said for other cities with similarly bad times; I would actually argue that the presence of the Palmetto probably adds some traffic to the Meteor/Star simply because it enables some one-way connectivity.

On the Sunset, for example, I'm willing to accept that there's no good solution for the train as a whole. Somebody is going to be the odd man out. The same applies to the CA Zephyr as well, given the lost time on that route over the years...and so on (witness Ohio's predicament...probably the best argument to be had against the 3C's operation was the lack of any decent-hour connection going elsewhere to interchange with at either end of the line). There are a lot of routes where the presence of an intermediate corridor train, a secondary train spaced 4-8 hours to one side, or something in addition to a once-daily train would do wonders for the desirability of train travel.

Sliding back around to an LA-specific issue: What time does Phillipe's open?

 

[Texan Eagle]

Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will always have to bear midnight arrivals and departures. Unless of course the timetable is set in such a way that all LD trains sit at a siding or a station from 10pm to 6am and then continue further. Some people are disappointed that public transit and shops do not operate at the time Sunset Limited arrives in LA. Hey, Amtrak does not run them, right? What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation. If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.

 

[jis]

VIA does that with the Jasper - Prince Rupert Service. It also saves on Sleeper cost since the passengers get to spend the night in a hotel at Prince George, halfway to Prince Rupert.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will always have to bear midnight arrivals and departures.

What people? I'm not aware of anyone who thinks every city should be blessed with daytime hours.

What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation.

Try their best to match those hours in larger cities like LA?

If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.

Are you hungry for breakfast at 4AM? You're in luck! The market has created a food stall for you. ^_^

What about going back to sleep or getting a ride to your final destination or even just storing your bags?

Not to mention that I doubt you could just show up and put a food stall in or around the LAX property where arriving passengers would see it. With only one train to serve every few days it would be completely dependent on the SL's passenger numbers and on-time performance and would be unlikely to work as a contracted vendor.

I don't think this change was made to improve the SL's passenger numbers so much as it was made to keep from watching expensive hardware and well paid employees sitting around doing nothing for days on end due to an unresolved scheduling loophole. That's a perfectly reasonable goal of course, but it also comes with negative consequences for some of us along the route. My guess is that this change will end up being a wash or only a minor improvement over the long term. Either way only time will tell for certain. Just don't tell that to those pro-change people who insist on declaring a scheduling victory right from the start.

 

[Anderson]

Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will always have to bear midnight arrivals and departures.

What people? I'm not aware of anyone who thinks every city should be blessed with daytime hours.

What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation.

Try their best to match those hours in larger cities like LA?

If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.

Are you hungry for breakfast at 4AM? You're in luck! The market has created a food stall for you. ^_^

What about going back to sleep or getting a ride to your final destination or even just storing your bags?

Not to mention that I doubt you could just show up and put a food stall in or around the LAX property where arriving passengers would see it. With only one train to serve every few days it would be completely dependent on the SL's passenger numbers and on-time performance and would be unlikely to work as a contracted vendor.

I don't think this change was made to improve the SL's passenger numbers so much as it was made to keep from watching expensive hardware and well paid employees sitting around doing nothing for days on end due to an unresolved scheduling loophole. That's a perfectly reasonable goal of course, but it also comes with negative consequences for some of us along the route. My guess is that this change will end up being a wash or only a minor improvement over the long term. Either way only time will tell for certain. Just don't tell that to those pro-change people who insist on declaring a scheduling victory right from the start.

Counter on the food stall point: An existing operator (to pull the one operator in LAUS that I know of, Starbucks) could extend their hours of operation for a relatively small net cost (say, $40-50/day to operate for 2-3 more hours).

 

[henryj]

I don't think this change was made to improve the SL's passenger numbers so much as it was made to keep from watching expensive hardware and well paid employees sitting around doing nothing for days on end due to an unresolved scheduling loophole. That's a perfectly reasonable goal of course, but it also comes with negative consequences for some of us along the route. My guess is that this change will end up being a wash or only a minor improvement over the long term. Either way only time will tell for certain. Just don't tell that to those pro-change people who insist on declaring a scheduling victory right from the start.

Other than daily service, this change almost exactly follows the Amtrak Performance Improvement Plan, PRIIA Section 210, issued in 2010. Apparently you never read it. Now if we can get that Phoenix connection.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&p=1237608345018&cid=1241245669222

Schedule Changes

The new schedule in Los Angeles will enable

better connections with the Coast Starlight.

Along with reductions in San Antonio layover

time, the new route gives customers much better

arrival and departure times in key cities.

Amtrak’s Market Research & Analysis Group

estimates that these changes will drive higher

ridership in these cities.

Layover Impact

The new service will vastly improve San

Antonio layovers for through

passengers. The most dramatic

reductions will be for passengers

traveling between Los Angeles and

Chicago, with trip times falling by 9 and

5 hours for eastbound and westbound

travelers respectively.

Customer Satisfaction Index

 

[guest employee]

Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will always have to bear midnight arrivals and departures. Unless of course the timetable is set in such a way that all LD trains sit at a siding or a station from 10pm to 6am and then continue further. Some people are disappointed that public transit and shops do not operate at the time Sunset Limited arrives in LA. Hey, Amtrak does not run them, right? What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation. If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.

Bravo. And let's also not forget that there ARE Metrolink trains departing and arriving by that hour!! It's not as if the station were abandoned.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Counter on the food stall point: An existing operator (to pull the one operator in LAUS that I know of, Starbucks) could extend their hours of operation for a relatively small net cost (say, $40-50/day to operate for 2-3 more hours).

I agree that would be much more workable.

Other than daily service, this change almost exactly follows the Amtrak Performance Improvement Plan, PRIIA Section 210, issued in 2010. Apparently you never read it. Now if we can get that Phoenix connection.

I would have been more supportive of this move if it came with daily service. At least in that case I would have more days with which to try and make the hours work. But we all know that's not going to happen, right? A change like that would require more money than Amtrak currently has on hand or is likely to have in the future. And without daily service I wouldn't be expecting any other developments like a return of the Phoenix connection or the Maricopa shuttle.

 

[Anderson]

Why are people forgetting the simple fact that when a train runs on an extremely long route, some stations will always have to bear midnight arrivals and departures. Unless of course the timetable is set in such a way that all LD trains sit at a siding or a station from 10pm to 6am and then continue further. Some people are disappointed that public transit and shops do not operate at the time Sunset Limited arrives in LA. Hey, Amtrak does not run them, right? What is Amtrak supposed to do if other businesses have different hours of operation. If SL regularly comes into LA by 4.30am, within sometime some enterprising food-stall will decided to cash in on the situation and set up business at 4am. Demand-supply.

Bravo. And let's also not forget that there ARE Metrolink trains departing and arriving by that hour!! It's not as if the station were abandoned.

I'd like to make a note: It's not that the trains would need to sit on a siding; you'd just need to have a second (or third) train on the route displaced from the main train by a certain number of hours. For example, take the Sunset: SAS could have decent times if you had both a morning train and an evening train out of NOL (the exact timing would come down to "how much do you want to shoot for Houston"). A late NOL departure could even, arguably, be timed to allow same-day connections with the CONO/Crescent WB (though EB you'd probably need an "obnoxious hour" arrival to allow that). Not that there's necessarily either the business to make that happen or the cooperation from UP to allow it, but the point remains...the problem is, in no small part, a frequency issue rather than a timing issue.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Looks like yesterday's #1 is set for yet another 4:30 arrival.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Looks like yesterday's #1 is set for yet another 4:30 arrival.

And to think sleeping car passengers do not have to get off for two hours.

Even if the sound of other passengers disembarking wakes you, you can at least lie still and close your eyes and get additional rest if not actual sleep.

There used to be dozens of cases like this all over the country as I noted early on in this post.

Really long distances trains and buses, unlike airlines, cannot usually be convenient everywhere. If only there were the funds and capability to run more trains on the same route, as often happened in the past,it would help.

 

[George Harris]

Australia's situation is a bit more of a mess because of all the gauge breaks.

Australia's guage breaks are not really that big an issue now. The full route between Sydney and Perth is all standard gauge. Likewise, there is a standard gauge line parallel to the broad gauge line between the Victoria state border and Melbourne, and a standard gauge line from Sydney north to Brisbane. Even without the change of gauge, a through train from Sydney to points north of Brisbane would be somewhat unlikely.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Even some very short train routes had set out sleepers. A number of cities on the NEC had such sleepers. I think Philadelphia to Baltimore was one of shortest. Indianapolis to Louisville (111 miles ) was another very short Sleeping car route via the Interstate Railroad's Interurban line. The Sleeping car would board in Indy at 10pm, depart at 11pm connected to a regular coach interurban line car, go to Scottsburg (about 30 miles north of Louisville )was where the Sleeper was disconnected and sat on a siding until 6am, was hooked onto a regular coach interurban train and arrived in downtown Louisville before 7am. This allowed traveling salesman to have a bed for the night and save the cost of a hotel room.

 

[stntylr]

Just bought a ticket this morning for LAX on the SL. My trip's in August, I have a connection to San Diego from LAX. I'll see how it goes.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

And to think sleeping car passengers do not have to get off for two hours.

That's fine for the tiny minority of passengers arriving in a sleeper compartment. Not sure how that helps the other 80-90% of passengers.

Really long distances trains and buses, unlike airlines, cannot usually be convenient everywhere. If only there were the funds and capability to run more trains on the same route, as often happened in the past,it would help.

Another train twelve hours removed from the current SL's schedule connecting to additional trains that are themselves twelve hours off would be nice. Maybe an express train at the six hour mark. Would be very nice indeed. Nothing but dreaming with today's do-nothing spoiler attitude becoming more and more prevalent, but still nice to think about.

 

[haolerider]

And to think sleeping car passengers do not have to get off for two hours.

That's fine for the tiny minority of passengers arriving in a sleeper compartment. Not sure how that helps the other 80-90% of passengers.

Really long distances trains and buses, unlike airlines, cannot usually be convenient everywhere. If only there were the funds and capability to run more trains on the same route, as often happened in the past,it would help.

Another train twelve hours removed from the current SL's schedule connecting to additional trains that are themselves twelve hours off would be nice. Maybe an express train at the six hour mark. Would be very nice indeed. Nothing but dreaming with today's do-nothing spoiler attitude becoming more and more prevalent, but still nice to think about.

I don't know what you mean by "do nothing spoiler attitude". I know Amtrak has been working on modifying the Sunset schedule to solve other issues and the end result was an early arrival into LA. As others have said, if there are no facilities open, I am sure some aggressive owner will find a way to service the passengers. As it has been said many times.......the train has to be somewhere in the middle of the night! it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me, but you can't please everyone!, I sure wouldn't let it stop me from taking the Sunset.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Another train twelve hours removed from the current SL's schedule connecting to additional trains that are themselves twelve hours off would be nice. Maybe an express train at the six hour mark. Would be very nice indeed. Nothing but dreaming with today's do-nothing spoiler attitude becoming more and more prevalent, but still nice to think about.

I don't know what you mean by "do nothing spoiler attitude". I know Amtrak has been working on modifying the Sunset schedule to solve other issues and the end result was an early arrival into LA.

That remark is not aimed at Amtrak. I don't expect Amtrak to pull new services out of an empty budget. Nor do I expect Amtrak to make $750,000,000 suddenly materialize out of thin air just so they can hand it over to the nearest freight troll in exchange for a one time change to a once-a-day interruption. I do expect the richest country on earth to avoid falling further and further behind more and more passenger rail services of far less wealthy countries. But maybe that's just me? After watching virtually every American HSR project implode like clockwork I think it's clear what sort of era we live in at this point. Union Pacific's NIMBY-style GFY offer is just icing on the cake at this point.

As others have said, if there are no facilities open, I am sure some aggressive owner will find a way to service the passengers.

Service how exactly? Baggage and clean beds or burnt coffee and day old scones?

 

[haolerider]

Another train twelve hours removed from the current SL's schedule connecting to additional trains that are themselves twelve hours off would be nice. Maybe an express train at the six hour mark. Would be very nice indeed. Nothing but dreaming with today's do-nothing spoiler attitude becoming more and more prevalent, but still nice to think about.

I don't know what you mean by "do nothing spoiler attitude". I know Amtrak has been working on modifying the Sunset schedule to solve other issues and the end result was an early arrival into LA.

That remark is not aimed at Amtrak. I don't expect Amtrak to pull new services out of an empty budget. Nor do I expect Amtrak to make $750,000,000 suddenly materialize out of thin air just so they can hand it over to the nearest freight troll in exchange for a one time change to a once-a-day interruption. I do expect the richest country on earth to avoid falling further and further behind more and more passenger rail services of far less wealthy countries. But maybe that's just me? After watching virtually every American HSR project implode like clockwork I think it's clear what sort of era we live in at this point. Union Pacific's NIMBY-style GFY offer is just icing on the cake at this point.

As others have said, if there are no facilities open, I am sure some aggressive owner will find a way to service the passengers.

Service how exactly? Baggage and clean beds or burnt coffee and day old scones?

Look on the bright side......trains are running, ridership is up, but this country is still an automobile centric society. Will things change, maybe and maybe not, but I subscribe to the positive side of things.

As far as servicing passengers, I guess if you expect burnt coffee and day old scones, that is probably what you will get. It may take awhile, but I am sure someone will provide baggage service and maybe even good coffee and twice baked crossiants! If the free market system works, it will happen. Now, it may take Amtrak longer to get the baggage service worked out, but it will happen.

 

[henryj]

Somebody named TS is really upset. I guess Amtrak should consult him first next time it wants to make any changes. lol. Meanwhile, I am loving the new schedule and already planning my next trip.

 

[Rail Freak]

TS has been upset since May 24 2010!!! :wacko:

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Look on the bright side......trains are running, ridership is up, but this country is still an automobile centric society. Will things change, maybe and maybe not, but I subscribe to the positive side of things.

So the bright side basically involves acknowledging the irony of watching ridership records being broken while budgets are being slashed?

As far as servicing passengers, I guess if you expect burnt coffee and day old scones, that is probably what you will get.

I also expect modern cutting-edge passenger rail in the world's richest country. Does your theory about self-fulfilling expectations only work in one direction?

It may take awhile, but I am sure someone will provide baggage service and maybe even good coffee and twice baked crossiants! If the free market system works, it will happen.

I live a couple hours away from a country that followed America's free market advice and ended up with no passenger trains at all. The freest market of our era is arguably in Nigeria. I understand that Nigeria has the very best infrastructure doing absolutely nothing can buy.

TS has been upset since May 24 2010!!! :wacko:

More like 1981. :lol: