Sprinter

[WhoozOn1st]

Sprinter, how do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.

When I first learned of the new diesel-powered light rail line, in northern San Diego county between Oceanside and Escondido, I was quite pleased.

Then I rode it.

A number of assumptions on my part were destroyed. Yes, I know about assuming.

First assumption, sight unseen, was that diesel-powered meant diesel electric. Sprinter is not diesel electric. It's diesel mechanical or diesel hydraulic, a distinction without a difference in operations but perhaps crucial when it comes to maintenance.

Upon alighting from a Coaster at Oceanside I was looking forward to my first Sprinter ride. Ticketing was easy, boarding was simple, the motorman was a jovial chap who bade me good morning, and I was ready for a nice train ride.

And there the fairytale ended.

Sprinter is a bus on steel wheels and tracks. It sounds like a bus. It drives like a bus. It accelerates and decelerates like a bus, with the jerky shifting of gears like a bus. If not for the horn and grade crossings one might be forgiven for mistaking Sprinter for a bus. It's that bad.

And Sprinter is SLOW. The trainset seemed to mechanically complain upon leaving each station, and there were the bus-like jerks of shifting gears as Sprinter reluctantly accelerated (if that's the word) to a speed that many racehorses would find laughable. Several breeds of snails would be competitive with Sprinter.

Sprinter stations are very elaborate, and I found myself wondering whether the money required for them could not have been better spent on electrification of the line.

I had embarked upon my Sprinter sojourn as a joyride, but it quickly became a Journey of Torture.

Maybe this equipment works in Europe, where torture is a way of life, but it's not for SoCal. A mistake.

EDIT: The only cars passed in either direction were those held behind gates at grade crossings.

EDIT 2: And I seriously doubt any cars hit would have suffered more than minor dents. Sprinter is incredibly slow.

 

[the_traveler]

Now I see what you mean! At least it doesn't run down the middle of I-5 (or does it :huh: ) and you think you're in the bus lane!

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Now I see what you mean! At least it doesn't run down the middle of I-5 (or does it :huh: ) and you think you're in the bus lane!

No, Dave, Sprinter runs east-west between Oceanside and Escondido. I-5 runs north-south on the coast.

Your reply reminded me that I forgot to include the promised Sprinter videos.



The second one is very poor visually, because the operator pulled down the sunshade. The main point was to capture the sound, which didn't work out so well either.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

I'm sooo glad you posted that, and the videos.

I smell something (besides diesel) that the Sonoma-Marin SMART train district is about to pull.

Here see a promo video of what SMART hopes to build, the Sprinter, set to swing music, conveniently with no real world sound;

SMART promo.

Compare that with your recordings. What the heck did we buy up here?

I also assumed it was diesel/electric. Hydraulic drive? You're right, it does sound like a bus.

This is going to **** a lot of people off, especially those that voted against it, saying use buses on paved over track as an alternative. :angry:

EDIT:

I just sent a nastygram to the Community Outreach and Education Manager. He's a pretty reasonable man, I expect he'd answer.

 

[p&sr]

Sprinter is a bus on steel wheels and tracks. It sounds like a bus. It drives like a bus. It accelerates and decelerates like a bus, with the jerky shifting of gears like a bus.

This settles the issue of whether to call the Sprinter a "Light-Rail" or a "Commuter Rail". (Actually it's probably both, suited therefore only for a "light commute", since any heavy commute from its area of operation would be to San Diego or to the Orange County/Los Angeles area.)

We can just call it a "Rail-Bus"!

By the way, RailBusses have been in use in England for some while now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Railbuses

Some of them they even call "the Sprinter"!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_150

 

[WhoozOn1st]

One word: Electrify

Yeah heavy initial investment, but saved in spades down the road. Patrick Predicts: Those Sprinter trainsets are gonna cost a fortune in maintenance.

 

[access bob]

Sprinter, how do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.
When I first learned of the new diesel-powered light rail line, in northern San Diego county between Oceanside and Escondido, I was quite pleased.

Then I rode it.

A number of assumptions on my part were destroyed. Yes, I know about assuming.

First assumption, sight unseen, was that diesel-powered meant diesel electric. Sprinter is not diesel electric. It's diesel mechanical or diesel hydraulic, a distinction without a difference in operations but perhaps crucial when it comes to maintenance.

Upon alighting from a Coaster at Oceanside I was looking forward to my first Sprinter ride. Ticketing was easy, boarding was simple, the motorman was a jovial chap who bade me good morning, and I was ready for a nice train ride.

And there the fairytale ended.

Sprinter is a bus on steel wheels and tracks. It sounds like a bus. It drives like a bus. It accelerates and decelerates like a bus, with the jerky shifting of gears like a bus. If not for the horn and grade crossings one might be forgiven for mistaking Sprinter for a bus. It's that bad.

And Sprinter is SLOW. The trainset seemed to mechanically complain upon leaving each station, and there were the bus-like jerks of shifting gears as Sprinter reluctantly accelerated (if that's the word) to a speed that many racehorses would find laughable. Several breeds of snails would be competitive with Sprinter.

Sprinter stations are very elaborate, and I found myself wondering whether the money required for them could not have been better spent on electrification of the line.

I had embarked upon my Sprinter sojourn as a joyride, but it quickly became a Journey of Torture.

Maybe this equipment works in Europe, where torture is a way of life, but it's not for SoCal. A mistake.

I rode Sprinter when in San Diego for the APTA convention last month and most of my opinions are similar to yours. although I found the staff less than pleasant, and in fact down right nasty.

however if you give it long enough it gets up thru the gears (6 speed if I count the innumberable shifts correctly) it does move at a pretty decent clip but acceleration is glacially slow. and is as noisy as an old style bus.

be that as it may the dern thing was pretty well packed every time I rode it, so people must find it usefull.. one ride had 4 people in wheelchars and 4 bikes on board along with a standing load.

but as one says, it is cheap to get started and it can be electrified later, I hope they do.

Bob

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Here's the reply from SMART;

> Dennis,
>	I don't think anyone ever tried to hide the fact that we are talking
> about using diesel trains. This was a major part of the opposition's
> campaign against SMART, and I spent much of the past year explaining
> the reasons for this choice. You can read extensively about the
> decision in SMART's white papers on our web site,
> www.sonomamarintrain.org
>
>	DMUs - diesel multiple units -- have their advantages and
> disadvantages, all of which have been studied and debated for years as
> part of the SMART project. In the coming months, SMART's board will
> make a decision about the specific type of DMU we will use and which
> manufacturer will build the trains. There are several variables in
> this, but it will be a DMU.
>
> Chris Coursey
> Community Outreach Manager
> Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit

So, a rapid response, but no response to my concern that the Sprinter is a glorified bus, and that SMART wasn't representing accurately what a Sprinter experience is like.

I wrote back and asked if the public will be kept abreast of what equipment SMART is looking at before the final decision is made.

Any further posts I make about SMART, I'll start a fresh thread and stop hijacking WhoozOn1st's.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Oops, hang on...

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Oops, hang on...

???

Fall off the train? :unsure:

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Here's the reply from SMART;

> Dennis,
>	I don't think anyone ever tried to hide the fact that we are talking
> about using diesel trains. This was a major part of the opposition's
> campaign against SMART, and I spent much of the past year explaining
> the reasons for this choice. You can read extensively about the
> decision in SMART's white papers on our web site,
> www.sonomamarintrain.org
>
>	DMUs - diesel multiple units -- have their advantages and
> disadvantages, all of which have been studied and debated for years as
> part of the SMART project. In the coming months, SMART's board will
> make a decision about the specific type of DMU we will use and which
> manufacturer will build the trains. There are several variables in
> this, but it will be a DMU.
>
> Chris Coursey
> Community Outreach Manager
> Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit

So, a rapid response, but no response to my concern that the Sprinter is a glorified bus, and that SMART wasn't representing accurately what a Sprinter experience is like.

I wrote back and asked if the public will be kept abreast of what equipment SMART is looking at before the final decision is made.

Any further posts I make about SMART, I'll start a fresh thread and stop hijacking WhoozOn1st's.

Interesting that Chris Coursey, Community Outreach Manager, does not include in his reaching out an explanation of the exact nature of the DMU.

 

[access bob]

Here's the reply from SMART;

> Dennis,
>	I don't think anyone ever tried to hide the fact that we are talking
> about using diesel trains. This was a major part of the opposition's
> campaign against SMART, and I spent much of the past year explaining
> the reasons for this choice. You can read extensively about the
> decision in SMART's white papers on our web site,
> www.sonomamarintrain.org
>
>	DMUs - diesel multiple units -- have their advantages and
> disadvantages, all of which have been studied and debated for years as
> part of the SMART project. In the coming months, SMART's board will
> make a decision about the specific type of DMU we will use and which
> manufacturer will build the trains. There are several variables in
> this, but it will be a DMU.
>
> Chris Coursey
> Community Outreach Manager
> Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit

So, a rapid response, but no response to my concern that the Sprinter is a glorified bus, and that SMART wasn't representing accurately what a Sprinter experience is like.

I wrote back and asked if the public will be kept abreast of what equipment SMART is looking at before the final decision is made.

Any further posts I make about SMART, I'll start a fresh thread and stop hijacking WhoozOn1st's.

I don't think SMART ever hid the fact that it was to be DMU, in fact I seem to recall reading about how they were going to decide between the non compliant DMU's like the Sprinter or weather they were going to use FRA sized units like the Colorado Railcar. I don't think they said much on the fact that the performance was so poor but it was never a secret that it was to be diesel.

and while the vehicle itself is much like a bus, the fact that it is rail does mean it rides better and is more spacious, so half a loaf is better than none, and it can be converted to electric at a later date. it would not be like taking a BRT and converting to LRT it would just be hanging overhead and transitioning to new equipment..

Bob

 

[PetalumaLoco]

I don't think SMART ever hid the fact that it was to be DMU, in fact I seem to recall reading about how they were going to decide between the non compliant DMU's like the Sprinter or weather they were going to use FRA sized units like the Colorado Railcar. I don't think they said much on the fact that the performance was so poor but it was never a secret that it was to be diesel.
and while the vehicle itself is much like a bus, the fact that it is rail does mean it rides better and is more spacious, so half a loaf is better than none, and it can be converted to electric at a later date. it would not be like taking a BRT and converting to LRT it would just be hanging overhead and transitioning to new equipment..

Bob

I guess I don't explain myself very well.

I wasn't complaining that it was a DMU per se. But how many citizens around here know what a DMU is? And why hide clues to what the ride is like behind snappy big band music?

Interesting note, there was a letter in the local paper today by 2 of the rail district commissioners thanking the public for the vote, and explaining what the next step is (equipment selection) and inviting the public to stay informed. So I will be paying closer attention from now on.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I thought the Budd RDC and CRC DMUs also have hydraulic transmissions. Is there any example of a real-world DMU that uses the diesel-electric configuration?

(Somehow I don't want to call it a DEMU, because that would make me think of something that could run into NYP as well as run in non-electrified territory. I think a few of the Budd RDCs once existed in that configuration, but used a hydraulic transmission when running the diesels.)

With the number of long-established commuter services along the NEC that aren't electrified and never have been, I wouldn't be too optimistic that Sprinter will electrify anytime soon. Then again, who knows, maybe the results of the most recent election will lead away from diesel consumption.

 

[AlanB]

I thought the Budd RDC and CRC DMUs also have hydraulic transmissions. Is there any example of a real-world DMU that uses the diesel-electric configuration?
(Somehow I don't want to call it a DEMU, because that would make me think of something that could run into NYP as well as run in non-electrified territory. I think a few of the Budd RDCs once existed in that configuration, but used a hydraulic transmission when running the diesels.)

Yes, both Ottawa's O-Train and NJT's RiverLine operate with diesel-electric light rail vehicles. There is no mechanical transmission between the diesel engine and the wheels. Instead like most engines and MU equipment, there are traction motors on the trucks to drive the trains.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

acceleration is glacially slow. and is as noisy as an old style bus.

Deceleration into stations is also glacial, due to the need to mate doors with boarding gates at every stop. Tricky approach every time.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

acceleration is glacially slow. and is as noisy as an old style bus.

Deceleration into stations is also glacial, due to the need to mate doors with boarding gates at every stop. Tricky approach every time.

I visited Siemens website and looked at Desiro (Sprinter) specs, the diesel/mechanical model (they make diesel/electrics too). Siemens claims 120kph top speed (75mph) while SMART says whatever they end up with will have a 79mph top speed. The Sprinter is billed as having a 55mph top speed I believe. Siemens listed acceleration as 1.1 meters sq/second but that means nothing to me. Siemens, and other webpages I ran across, claimed the Desiro was fast and quick accelerating.

Maybe the Sprinter is throttled back for some reason? Economy? Noise? Schedule?

I think I saw an option at Siemens for extendable loading ramps.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Maybe the Sprinter is throttled back for some reason? Economy? Noise? Schedule?

Sprinter is billed as traveling "up to" 55 mph. I guarantee one and all that on my rides it never did more than 35 or 40, tops. And that was a stretch, even on a straight line over level track. The monstrosity accelerates so slowly that it can only reach speed for the briefest periods before having to jerkily decelerate and brake into a station.

Sprinter did keep to the published timetable: an hour to cover 22 miles. I believe electrification could cut this greatly.

 

[Rob_C]

That is absolutely atrocious! We're trying to get motorists out of cars with service that takes an hour to cover what would take no more than 30 minutes in a car?

Such a waste of money and time. I'm surprised anybody takes the thing. I suspect it's mostly people that already don't have cars and would otherwise use local buses. So the people that still use their cars are still using them and our dent into autos towards mass transit is a whopping zero.

 

[p&sr]

Siemens listed acceleration as 1.1 meters sq/second but that means nothing to me.

In automotive terms, I think that means zero to 60 mph in 24 seconds. Fairly glacial if you ever need to merge onto the Interstate!

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Sprinter did keep to the published timetable: an hour to cover 22 miles.

That speed sounds a lot like the newly rebuilt MBTA Greenbush Line, which has been operating for a bit more than a year, after decades of neither freight nor passenger service. But one of my coworkers actually does ride it; I believe he rides the whole length of the Greenbush line, and then takes the Red Line all the way from South Station to Alewife.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

I found this youtube clip from the operator's perspective, complete with startup procedure in case anyone wants to "borrow' one.


You can hear the bus-like engine in the background. I see what's meant by slowing for a station, it takes forever.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Thanks for the video, Petaluma. That's a run eastbound to Escondido, past the Sprinter shops and some freight. In both directions on this segment Sprinter makes its best speed, which as can be seen is pretty pathetic.

 

[Alice]

I found this youtube clip from the operator's perspective, complete with startup procedure in case anyone wants to "borrow' one.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

I found this youtube clip from the operator's perspective, complete with startup procedure in case anyone wants to "borrow' one.

Yeah, I saw that too.