Southwest Chief

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Peter L. Reid

Train Attendant
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Aug 17, 2012
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Location
Golden Square, Victoria, Australia
Mention is made in the September issue of "Trains", that in the near future the Southwest Chief could shift off the Albuquerque, Raton Pass, Trinidad CO route in favour of BNSF Railway's Transcon via Amarillo. Does anyone know what route the train would take and what towns it would pass through? If this eventuates a lot of great scenery will be lost.

I posted this on the Amtrak Facebook site as well as here.
 
Mention is made in the September issue of "Trains", that in the near future the Southwest Chief could shift off the Albuquerque, Raton Pass, Trinidad CO route in favour of BNSF Railway's Transcon via Amarillo. Does anyone know what route the train would take and what towns it would pass through? If this eventuates a lot of great scenery will be lost.

I posted this on the Amtrak Facebook site as well as here.
It would go across the Texas Panhandle through Amarillo and cutting across Oklahoma. It would rejoin the current route not far from Emporia, KS. Speculation is it would still service Albuquerque with a backup move. It has been extensively discussed on this forum. Amtrak does not want to do this, but much of the current line is either lightly used or not used at all (Lamy-La Junta) by BNSF and BNSF is not willing to maintain the line to passenger standards much longer.
 
Mention is made in the September issue of "Trains", that in the near future the Southwest Chief could shift off the Albuquerque, Raton Pass, Trinidad CO route in favour of BNSF Railway's Transcon via Amarillo. Does anyone know what route the train would take and what towns it would pass through? If this eventuates a lot of great scenery will be lost.

I posted this on the Amtrak Facebook site as well as here.

The train would take the former Santa Fe's Southern District. Newton, KS, would be the split point. Westbound, the train would turn south at Newton, heading to Wichita. A few miles south of Wichita, at Mulvane, KS, the route splits again. The "fork" to the left (east) takes you through Udall, down to Winfield, Arkansas City, and on south to Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, and Houston. The "fork" to the right at Mulvane takes you through Belle Plaine and into Wellington. I would imagine the Chief would take this route, to pick up Wichita. From Wellington, the line heads west/southwest through Harper, Attica, and Kiowa, KS, and into northwest Oklahoma. In Oklahoma, the line passes through Capron, Alva, Avard, Waynoka, and twists through the hills toward Woodward. Then, it's into the Texas Panhandle, passing through Higgins, Glazier, Canadian, Miami, and Pampa, before reaching Amarillo. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.) From Amarillo, the line goes south to Canyon, and then turns west/southwest, passing through Joel, Hereford, Wilsey, Farwell-Texico, and then into east-central New Mexico. Clovis is right there, as the line enters NM.

Out of Clovis, still westbound, the line goes pretty much straight west, passing through Melrose, Fort Sumner, Yeso, and then snakes around into Vaughn. Just west of Vaughn, the line crosses over the UP line to/from Tucumcari. (Former SP, I'm told.) The line continues through lots of curves and terrain as it runs through Lucy and Mountainair. The major landmark on this stretch would be Abo Canyon, between Scholle and Sais. Abo Canyon is just southeast of Belen, which is a hub. From Belen, the line runs north to Dalies, where it meets up with the original Raton/Albuquerque route and turns west for Gallup, Winslow, Flagstaff, Kingman, Barstow, San Bernardino, and LA.

I have no idea what station stops a rerouted Southwest Chief would make. My guesses would be, westbound after Newton, KS:

Wichita

Wellington (crew change?)

Kiowa (maybe?)

Alva (maybe? for Northwest Oklahoma State University?)

Woodward (maybe?)

Pampa

Amarillo

Canyon (maybe? for Palo Duro Canyon?)

Clovis (crew change?)

Vaughn (maybe? gateway to Roswell?)

Belen (crew change?)

Again, these are only guesses... with a healthy dose of wishful thinking. :p

There's been a lot of talk on other forums about a possible move of #3/#4 to the Southern District, and there's been a lot of speculation about how Albuquerque would be handled. I'm told there is a wye at ABQ, and I think (?) it's big enough for Amtrak to turn the entire train. If they continue to serve ABQ, it will be a time-consuming move. The Southern District will shorten the Chief's running time between Newton and Albuquerque/Belen, but the run between Belen and Albuquerque would add time. Any time "made up" running the Southern District would seemingly be lost in whatever moves they had to make to get into and out of Albuquerque.

In terms of scenery, I think the only gain would be Abo Canyon. The losses would be Raton Pass, Glorieta Pass, Canoncito/Canyoncito, and Apache Canyon, as well as the multiple pueblos between Lamy and Albuquerque.

I wish I'd been old enough to ride the San Francisco Chief, so I could've seen this route in person. I've ridden the Southwest Chief many times between Chicago and LA, with varying endpoints in between, and I'm glad I've had the chance to do that. My last trip was in December 2007, traveling between Topeka, KS, and Flagstaff, AZ. I took pictures like crazy, especially going over Raton Pass and going through Apache Canyon, and I wondered if that trip might be my last over that line.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.
 
...much of the current line is either lightly used or not used at all (Lamy-La Junta) by BNSF and BNSF is not willing to maintain the line to passenger standards much longer.

I forgot about the maintenance issue. Last I'd heard, BNSF had downgraded that long stretch between Newton (KS) and LaJunta (CO) to 60mph. Has it been downgraded again? When I rode through there in December 2007, when the train was still allowed to do 79mph through there, it was a rough ride.
 
There was a speed downgrade over a portion of the route to 60 mph back in August 2010. Since then, there have been no further downgrades to the track.
 
I have no idea what station stops a rerouted Southwest Chief would make. My guesses would be, westbound after Newton, KS:

Wichita

Wellington (crew change?)

Kiowa (maybe?)

Alva (maybe? for Northwest Oklahoma State University?)

Woodward (maybe?)

Pampa

Amarillo

Canyon (maybe? for Palo Duro Canyon?)

Clovis (crew change?)

Vaughn (maybe? gateway to Roswell?)

Belen (crew change?)
I would cross Belen off the list since ABQ station is a crew change/service stop. Using wye is doable and it had been doing that for years in pre-Amtrak days.

Cross Vaughn off, too because it's a village, not city. Vaughn is a ranch town, along with fuel/rest stops for Roswell and Albuquerque route. Clovis would be the gateway to Roswell.
 
Mention is made in the September issue of "Trains", that in the near future the Southwest Chief could shift off the Albuquerque, Raton Pass, Trinidad CO route in favour of BNSF Railway's Transcon via Amarillo. Does anyone know what route the train would take and what towns it would pass through? If this eventuates a lot of great scenery will be lost.

I posted this on the Amtrak Facebook site as well as here.

I wish I'd been old enough to ride the San Francisco Chief,
I am old enough and I did ride the SF Chief--between KC and Amarillo--an overnight run in either direction. It was a "sold out" train in June 1958, when boarding KCUS. Only seats available (and we had reserved seats 3 weeks in advance) were in the full length dome. I'm sure my mother and grandmother found that a very uncomfortable place to spend the night. Me? I didn't care. I was just a kid, and on a TRAIN! :D :D
 
I have no idea what station stops a rerouted Southwest Chief would make. My guesses would be, westbound after Newton, KS:

Wichita

Wellington (crew change?)

Kiowa (maybe?)

Alva (maybe? for Northwest Oklahoma State University?)

Woodward (maybe?)

Pampa

Amarillo

Canyon (maybe? for Palo Duro Canyon?)

Clovis (crew change?)

Vaughn (maybe? gateway to Roswell?)

Belen (crew change?)

Again, these are only guesses... with a healthy dose of wishful thinking. :p
Look at the Lake Shore Limited, and how limited its stops are. Given the cost of building stations, and given that the trains run faster with fewer stops, and given that most of the ridership comes from bigger city stops, I would actually expect Amtrak to establish very few stops initially on a rerouted Southwest Chief.

I'd expect only Wichita, Amarillo, up to Albuquerque and back. It could make very good time.

Amtrak might be able to move back into Wichita Union Station, which Amtrak served until 1979; it has been proposed to move Amtrak in there for the proposed Heartland Flyer extension north, so that would have some nice synergy.

Amarillo would need to have a completely new platform built.

Losing Albuquerque is not acceptable from a ridership point of view, and stopping in Belen would require substantial platform construction. The time savings from the faster route and fewer station stops should allow for the back-and-forth trip to Albuequerque; it's certainly less of a detour than the Silver Star's trip to Tampa. The train sits in Albuquerque for something like an hour anyway, so there's definitely time to go to the wye and reverse. I would hope RailRunner could be convinced to run connections to Santa Fe.
 
Here is the Wye South of ABQ. It's about 2.5 miles away and it looks long enough to Wye a SWC consist. My recollection of the area, though, is that it's not used much and will require a LOT of money to get up to par.

The good news is that there is an autorack loading yard right there at the Wye, so if Amtrak ever wanted to tack on a few auto racks and run Auto Train West to LA, it could. :D OK - JUST A JOKE!

Losing Albuquerque is not acceptable from a ridership point of view, and stopping in Belen would require substantial platform construction. The time savings from the faster route and fewer station stops should allow for the back-and-forth trip to Albuequerque; it's certainly less of a detour than the Silver Star's trip to Tampa. The train sits in Albuquerque for something like an hour anyway, so there's definitely time to go to the wye and reverse. I would hope RailRunner could be convinced to run connections to Santa Fe.
I don't think Railrunner will cooperate with connections. They will stick to their schedule and never be told to wait for a delayed SWC. Not to mention, they don't have the staff or equipment to deal with checked through luggage. That's the beauty today of the Lamy shuttle. You can check bags all the way to Santa Fe, and the shuttle runs according to the SWC time performance.

I expect the Wye to steal about 15 minutes from the schedule. Your speed depreciates quite rapidly when travelling backwards. At least there are no grade crossings on that 2.5 mile section. Another point of confusion will be the fact that all the trains coming into ABQ will be facing the same direction. Sometimes when there was a meet at ABQ where the WB met the EB, you at least had a chance of knowing which train was which by its orientation. Now that extra little help will be lost.

ABQ will be a VERY busy little station between 11 and 5.
 
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Amarillo would need to have a completely new platform built.
Not so sure about that. I spoke with the owner of the old Santa Fe station. He was working with the city to use the station for the old Caprock Express train they tried to get going 10 years or so ago. He may then still be willing to allow its use for this.

As far as the platform, much of it is still there. Though the bricks do stop about 10 yards away from the tracks. It would definitely need upgrades. I just would not think that it would need to be "completely new".
 
As far as stops go, this would be my guess...

Wellington, KS

Woodward, OK

Pampa, TX

Amarillo, TX

Hereford, TX

Clovis, NM

I would say no to Canyon. Just too close to Amarillo. Though Canyon does have a University so might be worth it. BNSF probably would not want it since their trains blow through Canyon.
 
Here is the Wye South of ABQ. It's about 2.5 miles away and it looks long enough to Wye a SWC consist. My recollection of the area, though, is that it's not used much and will require a LOT of money to get up to par.
Venture, do you know where they wyed the SWC in ABQ last week during the flood disruption between ABQ and Lamy? Or did they just switch the engines to the other end?
 
Here is the Wye South of ABQ. It's about 2.5 miles away and it looks long enough to Wye a SWC consist. My recollection of the area, though, is that it's not used much and will require a LOT of money to get up to par.
Venture, do you know where they wyed the SWC in ABQ last week during the flood disruption between ABQ and Lamy? Or did they just switch the engines to the other end?
If they did indeed wye it, then it would have been at the same wye they have used during other reroutes. It is the one south of the station.
 
As far as stops go, this would be my guess...

Wellington, KS

Woodward, OK

Pampa, TX

Amarillo, TX

Hereford, TX

Clovis, NM

I would say no to Canyon. Just too close to Amarillo. Though Canyon does have a University so might be worth it. BNSF probably would not want it since their trains blow through Canyon.
Between Newton and Albuquerque I would also add Wichita to your list.
 
As far as stops go, this would be my guess...

Wellington, KS

Woodward, OK

Pampa, TX

Amarillo, TX

Hereford, TX

Clovis, NM

I would say no to Canyon. Just too close to Amarillo. Though Canyon does have a University so might be worth it. BNSF probably would not want it since their trains blow through Canyon.
Between Newton and Albuquerque I would also add Wichita to your list.
Yup. Forgot that one.
 
Mention is made in the September issue of "Trains", that in the near future the Southwest Chief could shift off the Albuquerque, Raton Pass, Trinidad CO route in favour of BNSF Railway's Transcon via Amarillo. Does anyone know what route the train would take and what towns it would pass through? If this eventuates a lot of great scenery will be lost.

I posted this on the Amtrak Facebook site as well as here.
It would go across the Texas Panhandle through Amarillo and cutting across Oklahoma. It would rejoin the current route not far from Emporia, KS. Speculation is it would still service Albuquerque with a backup move. It has been extensively discussed on this forum. Amtrak does not want to do this, but much of the current line is either lightly used or not used at all (Lamy-La Junta) by BNSF and BNSF is not willing to maintain the line to passenger standards much longer.
What is the probability of this actually happening? 50% 100%, and by when? Is it something where we should start to plan for that "last ride" along the traditional route within the next year or two?
 
Mention is made in the September issue of "Trains", that in the near future the Southwest Chief could shift off the Albuquerque, Raton Pass, Trinidad CO route in favour of BNSF Railway's Transcon via Amarillo. Does anyone know what route the train would take and what towns it would pass through? If this eventuates a lot of great scenery will be lost.

I posted this on the Amtrak Facebook site as well as here.
It would go across the Texas Panhandle through Amarillo and cutting across Oklahoma. It would rejoin the current route not far from Emporia, KS. Speculation is it would still service Albuquerque with a backup move. It has been extensively discussed on this forum. Amtrak does not want to do this, but much of the current line is either lightly used or not used at all (Lamy-La Junta) by BNSF and BNSF is not willing to maintain the line to passenger standards much longer.
What is the probability of this actually happening? 50% 100%, and by when? Is it something where we should start to plan for that "last ride" along the traditional route within the next year or two?
Pretty high, because somebody is going to have to come up with millions for maintenance, and BNSF won't and Amtrak can't in the long term. The communities along the route are banding together trying to save it, and that is really the only hope for it. Maybe if they find a funding source that pays for part of it, BNSF will soften, but there has to be a pot of money someplace for the route to be saved.

It isn't a sure thing, but I am not going to bet against it. For myself, I am planning a last ride and I think anyone who wants to ride over Raton and Glorietta better plan for it, too. The good news is the deadline is 2015, IIRC, although I seem to recall that the funding source needs to be identified by 2014, so time can be spent setting up the shift to the Transcon if no bucks are found. So we still have a couple of years to go.

BTW-yes, the specific location I was talking about was Ellinor, KS, but figured a lot of people wouldn't know where that was, and Emporia was better known, since it used to be a stop, IIRC. I've seen speculation both that Wichita would be served, which would put the return to the current route at Newton, and would not be served. I took the worst case.
 
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This is a train that used to go on this route: http://www.streamlin...hief195407.html
Thanks for the link to SF Cheif's timetable. It remained pretty much the same schedule thoughout its run.

Here are pictures of #2 at Amarillo in June 1958 courtesy of my "Brownie Hawkeye" camera...

SFChiefAmarilloAlcoPA.jpg


SFChiefAmarilloConsist.jpg
 
After reading much about this issue, fare increases and track improvements needed, I have suspected this route is being quietly considered as a potential for being dropped. You will all pounce on me for this and cite increased pax loads. We all know long distance trains are cash cows and what a better train to discontinue along with the Sunset Limited. No one has mentioned this possibility. Just a thought.
 
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