Southwest Chief Reroute News

[MikeM]

Let me ask a new question...

If BNSF did not want Amtrak on this portion of the transcon, do they have to let them on? Or can they go the UP route and say they have to pay a bunch of money to upgrade the lines if they want to use them?

If they do not have to, then that would mean the whole route would be at risk.

This is not a question that anyone here could answer with any sort of certainty. In fact it would probably take a good deal of discussion, arguing between lawyers adn various andsundry government agencies before a conclusion would be reached.

It could be argued that this change would be much like the change from going through Phoenix to taking the primary freight route through Maricopa, except on a much larger scale. Did Amtrak have to kick in any moey to UP for that to happen?

But, that is just one of many points of discussion that could go on for multiple pages.

This is an interesting subject in of itself. Through the years, how many times has Amtrak rerouted for operational convenience for itself, or its host railroad?

Remember when the SFZ ceased the 100 mile backwards running from Denver to serve Cheyenne, and built a new 'station' platform at Borie in the middle of nowhere with a Greyhound bus as the waiting room for passengers going in and out of Cheyenne? I believe Amtrak initiated that and paid for it, but more than made up the cost with the saving in time and crew expense.

It was a little different than that... Amtrak continued to maintain the waiting room and station agent in the Cheyenne depot at least in the CZ days. You boarded a bus then to Borie, and there was a metal building (looked like most UP MOW buildings) that was finished inside with heat and bathrooms. So it really wasn't all that bad.

Now, after the CZ moved to the D&RG routing, UP promptly tore that building down, so when Amtrak ran the Desert Wind Pioneer over the UP from Denver west, Borie was a paved pad with a flat concrete pad where the depot used to stand. UP also used the service interruption as an opportunity to basically kick Amtrak out of all their depots - places where Amtrak formerly had waiting rooms turned into "AmShacks", which in Wyoming in February really weren't that great.

 

[bretton88]

Amtrak apparently sees the maintenance cost for the transcon line over the next 10 years as similar to the cost to repair the trinidad route, where as the only train they will have to perform almost zero maintenance after fixing it. So BNSF will just send them the bill.

 

[jis]

Now, after the CZ moved to the D&RG routing, UP promptly tore that building down, so when Amtrak ran the Desert Wind over the UP from Denver west, Borie was a paved pad with a flat concrete pad where the depot used to stand. UP also used the service interruption as an opportunity to basically kick Amtrak out of all their depots - places where Amtrak formerly had waiting rooms turned into "AmShacks", which in Wyoming in February really weren't that great.

I know Amtrak ran the Pioneer on UP, but when, if ever, did it run the Desert Wind as a separate train via UP?

 

[zephyr17]

Now, after the CZ moved to the D&RG routing, UP promptly tore that building down, so when Amtrak ran the Desert Wind over the UP from Denver west, Borie was a paved pad with a flat concrete pad where the depot used to stand. UP also used the service interruption as an opportunity to basically kick Amtrak out of all their depots - places where Amtrak formerly had waiting rooms turned into "AmShacks", which in Wyoming in February really weren't that great.

I know Amtrak ran the Pioneer on UP, but when, if ever, did it run the Desert Wind as a separate train via UP?

The Desert Wind never ran over Overland Route. However it was a separate train over the UP's former LA&SL mainline between Salt Lake (or Ogden, depending on the era) and Los Angeles.

During the Mercer cuts era in the 90s, when the CZ ran 4 days a week and the Desert Wind 3 days a week, they both ran via the D&RGW.

 

[MikeM]

Now, after the CZ moved to the D&RG routing, UP promptly tore that building down, so when Amtrak ran the Desert Wind over the UP from Denver west, Borie was a paved pad with a flat concrete pad where the depot used to stand. UP also used the service interruption as an opportunity to basically kick Amtrak out of all their depots - places where Amtrak formerly had waiting rooms turned into "AmShacks", which in Wyoming in February really weren't that great.

I know Amtrak ran the Pioneer on UP, but when, if ever, did it run the Desert Wind as a separate train via UP?

The Desert Wind never ran over Overland Route. However it was a separate train over the UP's former LA&SL mainline between Salt Lake (or Ogden, depending on the era) and Los Angeles.

During the Mercer cuts era in the 90s, when the CZ ran 4 days a week and the Desert Wind 3 days a week, they both ran via the D&RGW.

Yep, got whacked with the Stupid Stick. Meant to say the Pioneer, which did separate in Denver. The Desert Wind split off in Salt Lake and took the LA&SL line southwest.

 

[jis]

Yep, got whacked with the Stupid Stick. Meant to say the Pioneer, which did separate in Denver. The Desert Wind split off in Salt Lake and took the LA&SL line southwest.

Well, when the Desert Wind was originally introduced it was an Ogden to Los Angeles train which originally just had cross platform transfer at Ogden from the San Francisco Zephyr.

 

[railiner]

Let me ask a new question...

If BNSF did not want Amtrak on this portion of the transcon, do they have to let them on? Or can they go the UP route and say they have to pay a bunch of money to upgrade the lines if they want to use them?

If they do not have to, then that would mean the whole route would be at risk.

This is not a question that anyone here could answer with any sort of certainty. In fact it would probably take a good deal of discussion, arguing between lawyers adn various andsundry government agencies before a conclusion would be reached.

It could be argued that this change would be much like the change from going through Phoenix to taking the primary freight route through Maricopa, except on a much larger scale. Did Amtrak have to kick in any moey to UP for that to happen?

But, that is just one of many points of discussion that could go on for multiple pages.

This is an interesting subject in of itself. Through the years, how many times has Amtrak rerouted for operational convenience for itself, or its host railroad?

Remember when the SFZ ceased the 100 mile backwards running from Denver to serve Cheyenne, and built a new 'station' platform at Borie in the middle of nowhere with a Greyhound bus as the waiting room for passengers going in and out of Cheyenne? I believe Amtrak initiated that and paid for it, but more than made up the cost with the saving in time and crew expense.

It was a little different than that... Amtrak continued to maintain the waiting room and station agent in the Cheyenne depot at least in the CZ days. You boarded a bus then to Borie, and there was a metal building (looked like most UP MOW buildings) that was finished inside with heat and bathrooms. So it really wasn't all that bad.

Now, after the CZ moved to the D&RG routing, UP promptly tore that building down, so when Amtrak ran the Desert Wind Pioneer over the UP from Denver west, Borie was a paved pad with a flat concrete pad where the depot used to stand. UP also used the service interruption as an opportunity to basically kick Amtrak out of all their depots - places where Amtrak formerly had waiting rooms turned into "AmShacks", which in Wyoming in February really weren't that great.

Back when I lived near Denver, I made several trips on the SFZ west. Everytime I was at the Borie station stop, the chartered Greyhound MC-8 would be waiting for the train with the passengers from Cheyenne and even the UP/Amtrak station agent would ride the bus with the passengers. He would handle the checked baggage from the bus to the baggage car, and then do the same with the bags and passengers getting off the train going into Cheyenne. I do not recall passengers getting off the bus and waiting in any building at Borie. They would go from the bus right onto the train. IIRC, the bus made a couple of stops for different sections of the train.

This ended when the train was converted to the newly rerouted CZ. When the Pioneer started running through Wyoming several years later for a brief time, I was no longer around...

 

[FunNut]

Perhaps a soulution would be a Denver-El Paso corridor service, connectiong to the CZ at Denver, the SWC at Belen, and the SL at El Paso. Getting NM and Colorado to play will, of course, be IFFY. As well with BNSF/UP on the joint use lines between Pueblo and Denver.

My personal dream. Too bad the prospects for this are so dim.

 

[VentureForth]

Perhaps a soulution would be a Denver-El Paso corridor service, connectiong to the CZ at Denver, the SWC at Belen, and the SL at El Paso. Getting NM and Colorado to play will, of course, be IFFY. As well with BNSF/UP on the joint use lines between Pueblo and Denver.

My personal dream. Too bad the prospects for this are so dim.

This was plausible under Governor Richardson. He just ran into term limits. Ran out of political office before he ran out of dreams. Colorado would have been hard to bring on board. And todays NM Administration is trying to figure out how to pay for all the GRIPs (Governor Richardson's Improvement Projects or something like that). It was sort of a Pre Obama stimulus program.

 

[bretton88]

Perhaps a soulution would be a Denver-El Paso corridor service, connectiong to the CZ at Denver, the SWC at Belen, and the SL at El Paso. Getting NM and Colorado to play will, of course, be IFFY. As well with BNSF/UP on the joint use lines between Pueblo and Denver.

My personal dream. Too bad the prospects for this are so dim.

This was plausible under Governor Richardson. He just ran into term limits. Ran out of political office before he ran out of dreams. Colorado would have been hard to bring on board. And todays NM Administration is trying to figure out how to pay for all the GRIPs (Governor Richardson's Improvement Projects or something like that). It was sort of a Pre Obama stimulus program.

Richardson was a visionary. But Colorado would never come on board. They have dreams too, but very different that conventional rail. Colorado wants their true HSR running 150mph up and down Pueblo-Ft Collins.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Richardson was a visionary. But Colorado would never come on board. They have dreams too, but very different that conventional rail. Colorado wants their true HSR running 150mph up and down Pueblo-Ft Collins.

Isn't Denver busy refurbishing and expanding their old conventional train station? That's not so bad in today's anti-rail environment. For all the knocking I give Texas we do have several old train stations that are still used as (gasp!) train stations. At least some of the time. Even some of our polluted podunks and outlet mall towns have nice million dollar stations. And even though SAS no longer uses the actual Sunset Station for ticketing and waiting you still get picked up and dropped off just a few feet away.

 

[bretton88]

Richardson was a visionary. But Colorado would never come on board. They have dreams too, but very different that conventional rail. Colorado wants their true HSR running 150mph up and down Pueblo-Ft Collins.

Isn't Denver busy refurbishing and expanding their old conventional train station? That's not so bad in today's anti-rail environment. For all the knocking I give Texas we do have several old train stations that are still used as (gasp!) train stations. At least some of the time. Even some of our polluted podunks and outlet mall towns have nice million dollar stations. And even though SAS no longer uses the actual Sunset Station for ticketing and waiting you still get picked up and dropped off just a few feet away.

Well, the problem with Denver is that they are building a wonderful station environment for their commuter system. Its terrible for any intercity rail. Amtrak still has to do a backing move to access it. Any HSR would require some very expensive work to use the station as it will be built. On the state level, the support for intercity rail has been focused on HSR on the front range pueblo to ft collins and to the ski resorts.

 

[Anderson]

Richardson was a visionary. But Colorado would never come on board. They have dreams too, but very different that conventional rail. Colorado wants their true HSR running 150mph up and down Pueblo-Ft Collins.

Isn't Denver busy refurbishing and expanding their old conventional train station? That's not so bad in today's anti-rail environment. For all the knocking I give Texas we do have several old train stations that are still used as (gasp!) train stations. At least some of the time. Even some of our polluted podunks and outlet mall towns have nice million dollar stations. And even though SAS no longer uses the actual Sunset Station for ticketing and waiting you still get picked up and dropped off just a few feet away.

Well, the problem with Denver is that they are building a wonderful station environment for their commuter system. Its terrible for any intercity rail. Amtrak still has to do a backing move to access it. Any HSR would require some very expensive work to use the station as it will be built. On the state level, the support for intercity rail has been focused on HSR on the front range pueblo to ft collins and to the ski resorts.

Could I get a link to information on what CO has actually been pursuing? The Ski Train fiasco aside, I had not heard any news about Colorado doing anything train-wise.

Also, while there's support for HSR along the Front Range, is there any support for doing a "demonstration train" of some sort to show that the market works and/or to get people used to the train being an option? Likewise, is there any support for 90-125 MPH trains on that corridor? The corridor is less than 200 miles long (assuming Pueblo-Fort Collins is the desired alignment, you get 178 miles by car), so an average speed of 60 MPH (probably close to the upper limit of 79 MPH tracks) would run the distance in three hours, while 70 MPH (which you'd get if you could manage a number of segments in the 90-110 MPH range, depending on conditions and so forth) would get you close to 2.5 hours and definitely be travel time-competitive with driving. Moreover, operations in this speed range would make catenary optional and allow existing engine types to be used (as well as allowing orders to be piggybacked on other states' bilevel orders, saving CO money in the process).

 

[jis]

All the passenger rail development in CO at present is under the auspices of the Denver RTD, and includes introduction of several commuter lines and extension of the LRT system considerably too. The redevelopment of the Denver Union Station alludes to the various items in the plan. See for example: Denver Union Station Project Elements

 

[afigg]

Could I get a link to information on what CO has actually been pursuing? The Ski Train fiasco aside, I had not heard any news about Colorado doing anything train-wise.

Colorado has completed a feasibility study for conventional, HSR, and maglev alternatives and alternate routes for east-west I-70 and north-south I-25 corridor trains. The reports and various presentations can be found at the Rocky Mountain Rail Authority website.

A major driver for a HSR or passenger train line up into the mountains is that I-70 is fast approaching total congestion at peak periods and widening I-70 is very difficult and expensive. An advantage of an electrified HSR line is that it can handle steep grades which would allow the construction of a passenger rail corridor partially following I-70 with easier to build straighter tracks up the slopes rather than many miles of switchbacks and tunnels to minimize the grade.

Where the proposed HSR and intercity rail projects stand in the Colorado long range transportation plans and state politics, don't know.

 

[VentureForth]

Could I get a link to information on what CO has actually been pursuing? The Ski Train fiasco aside, I had not heard any news about Colorado doing anything train-wise.

Colorado has completed a feasibility study for conventional, HSR, and maglev alternatives and alternate routes for east-west I-70 and north-south I-25 corridor trains. The reports and various presentations can be found at the Rocky Mountain Rail Authority website.

A major driver for a HSR or passenger train line up into the mountains is that I-70 is fast approaching total congestion at peak periods and widening I-70 is very difficult and expensive. An advantage of an electrified HSR line is that it can handle steep grades which would allow the construction of a passenger rail corridor partially following I-70 with easier to build straighter tracks up the slopes rather than many miles of switchbacks and tunnels to minimize the grade.

Where the proposed HSR and intercity rail projects stand in the Colorado long range transportation plans and state politics, don't know.

That's all plausible, but it doesn't make sense, so it won't work. They cannot afford HSR and they don't have the density to support it. For a fraction of the investment, they can get a very good, modern, conventional system compatible with the rest of the country.

Even Japan doesn't have HSR all over the place for as small and densly populated as country it is. For 3 decades, the Shinkansen only supported the Southern corridor between Tokyo and Hakata (with the Tokaido section from Tokyo to Osaka being the heaviest travelled).

Point is that HSR needs to start on the East Coast in the NEC on its own ROW, another one on the West Coast, and as time progresses, begin to connect the larger cities. Meanwhile, I hope that the states can do everything in their power to support 90 MPH service that can feed Amtrak across teh country.

 

[bretton88]

Could I get a link to information on what CO has actually been pursuing? The Ski Train fiasco aside, I had not heard any news about Colorado doing anything train-wise.

Colorado has completed a feasibility study for conventional, HSR, and maglev alternatives and alternate routes for east-west I-70 and north-south I-25 corridor trains. The reports and various presentations can be found at the Rocky Mountain Rail Authority website.

A major driver for a HSR or passenger train line up into the mountains is that I-70 is fast approaching total congestion at peak periods and widening I-70 is very difficult and expensive. An advantage of an electrified HSR line is that it can handle steep grades which would allow the construction of a passenger rail corridor partially following I-70 with easier to build straighter tracks up the slopes rather than many miles of switchbacks and tunnels to minimize the grade.

Where the proposed HSR and intercity rail projects stand in the Colorado long range transportation plans and state politics, don't know.

That's all plausible, but it doesn't make sense, so it won't work. They cannot afford HSR and they don't have the density to support it. For a fraction of the investment, they can get a very good, modern, conventional system compatible with the rest of the country.

Even Japan doesn't have HSR all over the place for as small and densly populated as country it is. For 3 decades, the Shinkansen only supported the Southern corridor between Tokyo and Hakata (with the Tokaido section from Tokyo to Osaka being the heaviest travelled).

Point is that HSR needs to start on the East Coast in the NEC on its own ROW, another one on the West Coast, and as time progresses, begin to connect the larger cities. Meanwhile, I hope that the states can do everything in their power to support 90 MPH service that can feed Amtrak across teh country.

It won't be cheap either. No diesel train is getting over monument pass in good time. And conventional speed rail that is a decent alternative over the I70 corridor? Forget it. Colorado really wants this and has put forward money to do it. The problem is CDOT gets a budget of 1 billion a year. So any major rail projects on the state level is a huge budget buster. Oh, BNSF and UP have already said forget about any passenger trains on their front range line.

 

[Jonathon]

Boy that would be HUGE for us folks in south central Kansas....no disrespect meant for those in southern Colorado or northern New Mexico. As it is now we have to drive to Newton to p/u Amtrak either going west or east. Here in Arkansas City we in a bit of a limbo with the possibility of the Heartland Flyer going north thru our town on the way to hook up in Newton.

 

[Jonathon]

PS...in retrospect I guess I'd rather see the extension of Heartland Flyer than Amtrak in Wichita....I travel to Nawlins more than I'd want to go to Chicago or LA

 

[Okie_Mon]

Why don't people from Alva-OK, Amarillo-TX, Belen-NM, Clovis-NM, Wichita-KS, Woodward-OK, etc. organize and coordinate a lobbying effort to get the SW Chief LD Train rerouted to the Transcon for their own passenger Rail access interests? And, would it be easier politically to connect the Heartland Flyer from Oklahoma City to Wichita instead of connecting it to Newton, KS or possibly route The Heartland Flyer North of OKC and Edmond to one of the NW Oklahoma stops of a rerouted SW Chief instead of to Kansas such as to Alva or to Woodward in order to remove reliance on the State of Kansas and Governor Brownback to provide any significant funding to support passenger rail? Isn't the State of Kansas already dragging their feet on completing the preliminary tasks needed to connect the Heartland Flyer from OKC North to Newton?

 

[sechs]

Actually, there is some passenger rail group in Wichita. A year or so a go, they staged an event at Wichita Union Station when the Chief rerouted on the transcon and passed through during daylight hours.

My feeling is that the Republican governor in Kansas isn't for spending anything for passenger rail, but certainly not at the cost of the stops in the western part of the state.

I'm not sure the people would be wild about an early morning drop at a station and long layover for a connection.

 

[guest]

Actually, there is some passenger rail group in Wichita. A year or so a go, they staged an event at Wichita Union Station when the Chief rerouted on the transcon and passed through during daylight hours.

My feeling is that the Republican governor in Kansas isn't for spending anything for passenger rail, but certainly not at the cost of the stops in the western part of the state.

I'm not sure the people would be wild about an early morning drop at a station and long layover for a connection.

daylight hours?? really? normally the Transcon is quicker than the regular route...I was on the SWC during the Track Fire, and we sat in Newton for quite a while waiting for time...

 

[henryj]

And, would it be easier politically to connect the Heartland Flyer from Oklahoma City to Wichita instead of connecting it to Newton, KS or possibly route The Heartland Flyer North of OKC and Edmond to one of the NW Oklahoma stops of a rerouted SW Chief instead of to Kansas such as to Alva or to Woodward in order to remove reliance on the State of Kansas and Governor Brownback to provide any significant funding to support passenger rail? Isn't the State of Kansas already dragging their feet on completing the preliminary tasks needed to connect the Heartland Flyer from OKC North to Newton?

A Heartland Flyer that turns in Newton or Wichita either one is DOA. No one wants to change trains at 2 or 3am in the morning. That is worse than a Greyhound bus and at least it goes all the way to KC. Currently the 'dog' lists four through buses Okc to KC and the fastest takes less than 7 hours. The one that connects with the Flyer leaves OKC at 12:20am and arrives in KC at 6:40. It's about the same coming back. If the OKC travelers want to connect with the SWC going west they have a bus to Wichita also. The old Texas Chief took 3-4 hours to go to Wichita or Newton around 7 hours to make KC. I assume they want to turn the Flyer in Newton so they continue to only need one set of equipment. But they would be turning it at 2am and have to service it there. Basically, if they can't run all the way to KC and utilize two sets of equipment then they should just forget it. If they really want to make this train viable then continue it on the BNSF all the way south to Houston on the old Texas Chief route.

 

[dart330]

According to the Service Development Plan, they project an additional 111,300 people would ride the HF each year if it were simply extended to Newton. That is on top of the current ridership of 89,200. The Newton stop alone has projections of 64,049 people getting on and off there. Despite the horrible timing in the middle of the night, there are plenty of people who will use this service.

 

[LWBaxter]

[.... Basically, if they can't run all the way to KC and utilize two sets of equipment then they should just forget it. If they really want to make this train viable then continue it on the BNSF all the way south to Houston on the old Texas Chief route.

Actually no new equipment is required to run the heartland flyer through to Kansas City except for the additional traffic generated. Run the equipment through Ft Worth to Chicago via St. Louis using the existing schedules Heartland Flyer/Mo .River Runner/Lincoln service schedules.

LWBaxter