Should Amtrak have kept the all sleeper trains?

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If you go back to the golden days of passenger rail there were many trains at that time that ran all sleeper cars (w diner and lounge cars). I imagine that the logic behind this was to attract more passengers by offering additional room and comfort. The Broadway Limited from NYP to CHI was such a train and I believe that the Santa Fe Chief was another.

We always hear from some in congress how the taxpayer pays for our "luxurious trips" and how Amtrak loses money. It is also known that sleeper class produces the highest revenue per passenger. This raises the question why Amtrak didn't keep and has never proposed bringing back the all sleeper train. Does anyone know why?.
 
When Amtrak came into being it was not conveyed any all sleeper trains.

There are several books by reputed writers, who studied the business situation, which allude to the fact that the only truly profitable passenger trains were the relatively lowly daytime all coach trains. While Sleeper trains produced large revenue per passenger, the cost of producing that revenue was very large too. When the exodus from rail started to happen the first to go were the Sleepers since the high paying sleeper passenger were first to disappear and the very marginal operations that they were collapsed rather quickly, financially speaking. That is why Amtrak never got an all sleeper train nor did it get a really going business in the few sleeper services that it picked up.
 
This background info certainly makes sense and it is understandable for a point in time where there where demand for passenger rail declined to unthinkable levels. To the contrary, today high revenue producing sleepers on the LD routes appear to be in high demand and in short supply. It may be time for Amtrak to rethink it's long term marketing philosophy.
 
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The Broadway Limited from NYP to CHI was such a train and I believe that the Santa Fe Chief was another.
The Super Chief indeed remained an all sleeper to the end, although it usually ran together with the all Coach El Capitan coming behind the Hi Levels of the Cap. It made for an interesting looking and long train and for many years after the arrival of Amtrak the mixing of Hi Level Coaches with single level Sleepers was common until the arrival of the Superliners.
 
Until the late 60's, the seasonal all sleeper Florida Special ran from New York to Miami. In fact when I rode it the very nice sleeper observation from what had been the all sleeper Broadway Limited was in service on the train. But times change. While there is still a demand for that market, many now head for the Bahamas, Caribbean and beyond rather than the gold coast. Sure, there are still those who head for WDW but I think you'll find most of them on Auto Train or at 30,000 feet. And the business traveler has long ago left the rails (at least in the long haul market). Still I think there is a limited market there for truly first class service (sleeper lounge, good dining, great service). Pullman Rail Journeys should be looking at that the potential there.
 
Another thing is back in "the old days", there were many more trains on each route, not just the 1 on most routes, that there are today. Would you rather have more trains, or would you rather have a sleeper train? :huh:

Everyone wants the SL to be daily. Would you want a "regular" train on the other 4 days or an all sleeper train on those 4 days? I'm sure someone going from Tucson to Deming would rather it be an all sleeper train for the daytime run of a few hours! (And that's not even considering the availability of the cars.)
 
This background info certainly makes sense and it is understandable for a point in time where there where demand for passenger rail declined to unthinkable levels. To the contrary, today high revenue producing sleepers on the LD routes appear to be in high demand and in short supply. It may be time for Amtrak to rethink it's long term marketing philosophy.
The all-sleeper trains (which, as noted, were also expensive to operate, not just high-revenue generators) typically carried 7-8, sometimes 10 sleepers per train (if I'm reading consist details online correctly).

Amtrak runs, typically, two sleepers per train (sometimes three, Auto Train of course the exception). There's a significant difference. Two sleepers, during peak periods, can be a capacity limiter. But there's nowhere near enough demand to fill 7 or 8 sleepers on a typical long-distance train and still sustain fares that would generate any kind of respectable yields.

During off-peak periods, there often isn't enough demand to fill two sleepers.

There would be no justification for running an all-sleeper train today. Even if they could fill 8 sleepers (which they can't), there's still plenty of carrying capacity on the train to run coach cars.
 
This background info certainly makes sense and it is understandable for a point in time where there where demand for passenger rail declined to unthinkable levels. To the contrary, today high revenue producing sleepers on the LD routes appear to be in high demand and in short supply. It may be time for Amtrak to rethink it's long term marketing philosophy.
The problem is that as soon as you satisfy the demand, the high revenue will go to pot, while the cost of running the service will only increase, since one of the premier costs of a high quality sleeper service is labor cost, and that is going nowhere but up with time.
Yes it would be nice to have some kind of sleeper service, but it needs to gravitate more towards Slumbercoach or lie flat chairs at much reduced cost that can be used uniformly as either daytime or overnight facility for a reasonable price, and the labor involved in providing personal attention is not going to be affordable.

In short a very different kind of sleeper service than was popular in the heyday of rail is probably called for and exactly what it is that will be affordable for the traveling public and able also to cover most of its cost of operation needs to be discovered through some experimentation. But it is unlikely to look anything like the luxurious ideas that many pine for.
 
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As usual jis has a great perspective! I agree and I'm one of those Oldsters that was fortunate enough to get to ride The Super Chief back in the Golden Age of Passengers Trains! Guess folks that can afford it can ride the Rocky Mountaineer, Iowa Pacific and the Canadian ( look for Specials on the Last Two) to have a taste of True First Class Rail Service!
 
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As usual jis has a great perspective! I agree and I'm one of those Oldsters that was fortunate enough to get to ride The Super Chief back in the Golden Age of Passengers Trains! Guess folks that can afford it can ride the Rocky Mountaineer, Iowa Pacific and the Canadian ( look for Specials on the Last Two) to have a taste of True First Class Rail Service!
I'm assuming you mean the Pullman Rail Journeys Iowa Pacific operates. I actually did a test booking, and depending on when you book an upper berth in an open section costs less than an Amtrak roomette.
 
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As usual jis has a great perspective! I agree and I'm one of those Oldsters that was fortunate enough to get to ride The Super Chief back in the Golden Age of Passengers Trains! Guess folks that can afford it can ride the Rocky Mountaineer, Iowa Pacific and the Canadian ( look for Specials on the Last Two) to have a taste of True First Class Rail Service!
I'm assuming you mean the Pullman Rail Journeys Iowa Pacific operates. I actually did a test booking, and depending on when you book an upper berth in an open section costs less than an Amtrak roomette.
Yes,the Pullman Rail Journeys from CHI-NOL that I have read about on several Rail Forums and if I can swing it Id like to try that out on one of the Bargain Trips! Ive been on the other Two but consider the Rocky Mountaineer a Bucket List Dream Land Cruise that is Not Affordable for most folks! (I got a real Deal on this and The Canadian too :) !!)!
 
I'd consider the latter two on the right route. I'd gladly do Iowa Pacific NYP-CHI or CHI-LAX, for example, and I wouldn't pass on it CHI-EMY. CHI-NOL has little interest for me beyond system completion under most circumstances.

The Rocky Mountaineer, on the other hand, is overblown IMHO. If I had a choice of spending $3000 on the Canadian or on the Rocky Mountaineer, I'd choose the former without even thinking twice.
 
You could buy a lot of cookies for $3,000!

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As usual jis has a great perspective! I agree and I'm one of those Oldsters that was fortunate enough to get to ride The Super Chief back in the Golden Age of Passengers Trains! Guess folks that can afford it can ride the Rocky Mountaineer, Iowa Pacific and the Canadian ( look for Specials on the Last Two) to have a taste of True First Class Rail Service!
Rocky Mountaineer is not first class rail service in the traditional sense though. Like it's not the same experience. I'm sure it's first class service, and obviously the equipment and scenery are awesome but breakfast and lunch on the train, and then dinner and a hotel off the train is not a first class train traveling experience from the Golden Age. It's a luxury scenic tour.

the Canadian and the Pullman Rail Journeys now... well NOW we are talking. :)
 
Allow me to describe the bigger picture.

Many books could be written (and have been written) on the state of train service in the US when Amtrak was established. Suffice it to say, it was a complete disaster, passenger and freight alike.

The so-called "rationalization" programs of the railroads at the time were poorly planned out, and driven by short-term political considerations. But at the time, no other plans made any more sense. The federal government was massively funding the competition (roads & air) while taxing the railroads, and so there was no rational management choice to make; it was bankruptcy, government takeover, government subsidy, or asset-stripping for all of them.

Regarding passenger trains, Amtrak was handed a network of extremely long-distance trains where the shorter local trains had mostly been cut. This doesn't make any business sense. When the railroad network was originally constructed, the short local passenger trains were run first, and the longer-distance trains ran as overlays on the network.

Depending on how you do your accounting, the longer-distance trains may look like the most profitable in that situation -- and that's how they looked to most of the railroad execs at the time -- but they make their profit based on network effects and depend for that profit on the existence of the local branch lines. The all-sleeper trains were the pinnacle of the "high end overlay", and depended on a huge underlying network, including many coach trains per day along the same routes.

It is not a coincidence that Amtrak's most successful lines run between cities with substantial urban rail and "commuter rail" operations. And it is not a coincidence that the most successful "long distance" routes (Auto Train aside) are connected to many "corridor" routes as well as to urban rail and commuter rail routes.

In 1971, most of the "commuter rail" services (local services) had already been cut, nationwide. The Northeast (Boston to DC) retained a fairly large collection, operated by government order; these mostly ended up in Conrail and were transferred to local authorities in 1983, while NYS bought the LIRR outright. The Chicago area started supporting its local routes in 1974 through Metra (and NICTD). The Peninsula Corridor in the SF Bay Area was adopted by Caltrain in 1980. Everything else either went to Amtrak or was cancelled entirely.

In 1971, the urban rail systems had already been decimated and were still shrinking. The complete "legacy list" for the US (including subways, els, and streetcars) is Boston, New York, Newark, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Chicago, New Orleans, and San Francisco -- nine cities. And even those systems were shrinking, with New Orleans down to a single streetcar line which was operating only because it was a "historic landmark". As far as I can tell, all the other urban rail systems in the US were dismantled well before 1971, with the exception of the El Paso-Juarez streetcar which lasted until 1973 or 1974.

There was some new urban rail construction in the 1970s, but it seemed to go out of its way to avoid the old intercity railway lines. BART and MARTA specifically failed to connect with all the existing trains, and WMATA made very little effort to connect to the adjacent intercity rail stations despite running right next to the railway lines. This behavior continued into the 1980s, with Baltimore, Buffalo, Portland, Sacramento, San Jose, and Los Angeles all building urban rail lines which you couldn't take to catch an intercity train; of the new lines in the 1980s, only San Diego had connectivity from the start. (Some of these have since been fixed.)

It turns out, as several studies of the replacement of streetcars by buses show, that on the whole people don't really like buses; replacing rail with bus makes ridership drop, a lot, consistently. The bustitutions of the 1920s/1930s/1940/1950s/1960s destroyed the underlying local service which was feeding the longer-distance train services. So Amtrak was handed a system which was missing its underpinnings, except in a few areas. Given this, it is actually surprising that Amtrak did as well as it did during the 1970s.

The areas where the underpinnings were retained or have been rebuilt are the areas where Amtrak is currently most successful. The revival of urban rail and commuter rail services in cities across the country provides the base which allows for longer-distance trains to thrive.

However, it's gonna require a lot more than that before all-sleeper trains can be supported. Notably, there *are* still all-sleeper trains (CityNightLine's Copenhagen-Basel route) running through Germany... but they are amidst an enormous supply of other trains, including a number of CityNightLine sleeper trains with coaches (though all the coaches are rather "Pullman-like"), a huge number of intercity day trains, and extensive urban rail services.

If enough rail improvements happen in the Northeast and the Midwest, we might eventually see an all-sleeper train from Chicago to New York again, but not until after we have a lot of day trains running. Likewise, if there are enough improvements in Virginia and North Carolina, we might eventually see something similar from Boston to North Carolina, but it's a long way off.
 
All Sleeper trains, were only seen on those routes which had multiple alternate trains to choose from, some operating very close to the all-sleeper trains schedule's.

Railroads started that type of train in the Gilded Age, when they ran such trains as their 'flagship' for purposes of prestige. As train frequencies started to wane in the post war years, especially the late sixties with the loss of mail contracts, there were less and less of these....The last ones were the Broadway Limited, which ended with the merger of the PRR and the NYC in 1968. After that, the Broadway assumed the schedule of the General, and coaches were added. The IC Panama Limited was another, until reductions in the same time period added coaches to the consist, although they were called 'The Magnolia Star' in the timetable. Similar for the Super Chief and El Capitan, as noted by Olympian Hiawatha, above....the Super and the El Cap ran together, except during peak season or holiday season when they were separated in two sections.

The Burlington's Denver Zephyr was another train that normally ran with coaches included, but during times like the Thanksgiving holiday, it ran in two sections, one all sleeper, the other coach....

I would say that if a second, or additional train could be added to a route, it would be better for business to include coaches, but try to separate it to balance the clock....two trains ideally twelve hours apart--three trains, eight hours apart, with possible adjustments to suit convenient times for the majority of market segments.....
 
The only market that I can think of which would arguably support an all-sleeper train at the moment would be NEC-Florida. Though I know the Auto Train is sui generis within Amtrak, between it and the Silvers you presently have approximately 14 Viewliner-equivalent sleepers going from the Northeast to Florida each day (5 Viewliners plus 6 Superliners), and that capacity often gets taxed. The Silvers had an additional sleeper each as recently as 2003/4, and if prices and load factors are any indication the trains could likely support at least another sleeper apiece. How much more you could add is a good question...a Silver Palm with 2-3 sleepers doesn't seem out of the question, for example. Basically the question would be whether you could sell 20 Viewliner-equivalents worth of sleeper space on a regular basis (at least "in season"). I suspect you might be able to do this under the right circumstances, but that's probably the floor for seriously considering an all-sleeper train.

As to the "prestige trains" performing badly compared to day trains, at least some of that would be down to the fare system in place back then. Basically, the "upcharge" for a sleeper vs. coach wasn't that great...for a handy example, as I've shown elsewhere, the coach fares on the Florida trains were roughly in line with the present high buckets (i.e. $200-250/ticket), while the sleeper fares were generally in line with the top two buckets. The main difference is that now, the average coach fare comes in a lot lower due to how buckets work (back then, the difference between a roomette and a coach seat might be 2:1; nowadays, that difference can be anywhere from 3:1 to 6:1). Even "extra fares" didn't tend to make up for it, so the coach trains (where you could pack more folks in) would perform better as a result.
 
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As to the "prestige trains" performing badly compared to day trains, at least some of that would be down to the fare system in place back then. Basically, the "upcharge" for a sleeper vs. coach wasn't that great...for a handy example, as I've shown elsewhere, the coach fares on the Florida trains were roughly in line with the present high buckets (i.e. $200-250/ticket), while the sleeper fares were generally in line with the top two buckets. The main difference is that now, the average coach fare comes in a lot lower due to how buckets work (back then, the difference between a roomette and a coach seat might be 2:1; nowadays, that difference can be anywhere from 3:1 to 6:1). Even "extra fares" didn't tend to make up for it, so the coach trains (where you could pack more folks in) would perform better as a result.
They still do. :)
 
The Northeast to Florida market could probably use another train, and I think it should have coach and sleeper 's....

If another train were added, I'd like to see them readjust the times of all of them so that they would be spread more evenly. Especially the arrival times at Miami...if the Palmetto were extended, it would offer a morning arrival time to the 'Gold Coast' cities...and the Meteor could perhaps depart about 4 hours later.
 
The Days of All Pullman trains have long passed. During the peak era when most business travelers went by train, they demanded the amenities provided on trains like the 20th Century LTD, Broadway LTD, Panama LTD, Capitol LTD, Super Chief, Pittsburgher and others. The cost of Amtrak providing such service would be more expenses that businesses would reimburse from business travel today. I often travel between Jacksonville, Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia or New York on business. If I take the Silver Meteor which has a decent overnight business schedule, I have to pay the upgrade to a roomette or bedroom myself because it is so much more than air travel. When I first started in my business, many of the old timers would talk about their experiences in the 1950s and early 60s when they would get on a train in the afternoon or evening, enjoy a cocktail in lounge followed by great dinner in the dining car followed by a night cap in the lounge car and then a good night's sleep in their Pullman Room. While on the train they would network with other business travelers in the lounge or diner and even develop new customers. Unfortunately when jets started flying in the late 1950s and trains became less dependable, it became more cost effective to fly to business meeting and stay in hotel. This model has become well established in the infrastructure and I do not forsee that changing.
 
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