Should Amtrak have kept the all sleeper trains?

[railiner]

Agree with jphjaxfl.......back in the old days, my grandfather was a business traveler....he was a salesman, and he called himself a 'commercial traveler' in that era....

Back then, he utilized Pullman Upper Berth's, in open section sleeper's, for not all that much more than a coach seat, as compared with today's difference.

He told me of one trip where he happened to close a very lucrative deal, and rewarded himself by upgrading to a drawing room on the trip home....

 

[Anderson]

As to the "prestige trains" performing badly compared to day trains, at least some of that would be down to the fare system in place back then. Basically, the "upcharge" for a sleeper vs. coach wasn't that great...for a handy example, as I've shown elsewhere, the coach fares on the Florida trains were roughly in line with the present high buckets (i.e. $200-250/ticket), while the sleeper fares were generally in line with the top two buckets. The main difference is that now, the average coach fare comes in a lot lower due to how buckets work (back then, the difference between a roomette and a coach seat might be 2:1; nowadays, that difference can be anywhere from 3:1 to 6:1). Even "extra fares" didn't tend to make up for it, so the coach trains (where you could pack more folks in) would perform better as a result.

They still do.

At least some aspect of that is down to capacity issues. My point is that the fare structure we have now does a better job of offsetting those additional costs for the sleepers. The Meteor and LSL are, in particular, quite well-primed for additional sleeper capacity.

One worthwhile exercise I haven't conducted (yet) is comparing revenue for sleepers and coaches at various buckets and load factors. I know the comparison won't be great given turnover distortions (longer runs pay less per mile), but it is at least worth looking into.

 

[Eyegor]

I don't have the experience or expertise to quote operating costs, revenues or other such numbers. What common sense and my somewhat limited experience tell me is that coach travel is essential on virtually all routes. The greater number of passengers, less overhead cost / passenger, as well as the appearance to the naysayers of Amtrak provided by coach service virtually mandates their continuance. I think we are many years away from having enough feeder or corridor trains that an all sleeper train could run in addition over the same route.

What I think would work, as others have said, is more Slumbercoach or Euro style 2nd class cars. Cars that better meet the needs of overnight travelers but also serve well for all the intermediate traffic. All with a greater number of passengers per car and without a significantly greater overhead cost.

 

[neroden]

I could perhaps state the situation shorter.

All-sleeper trains only exist where there are lots and lots of coach trains on the same route. This has always been true.

(If you have a dozen trains each way every day on a route, it may make sense to make one of them all-sleeper, if the timetable length of the route is correct. As in Basel-Copenhagen. But you never have sleepers without a coach option.)

 

[Anderson]

I went over the numbers in another thread, but basically...

The sort of situation where I could see an all-sleeper train would be one where either (A) a train was being split into a sleeper section and a coach section for operational reasons such as train length; (B) there are two "tightly scheduled" trains and one gets "bumped up" in status for marketing or operational reasons; or © Amtrak is able to somehow get permission to run only one of several trains faster/with higher priority and/or ends up running the "other" train as a local. Basically a Super Chief/El Capitan situation is A/B, while C is something I could buy if there were (for example) multiple trains through North Dakota.

Right now, only (A) is believable...and even then, really only in a circumstance where you'd end up running an all-sleeper Auto Train section and then running a coach-and-carriers section, or something like that. And the Auto Train only makes sense because the sleeper share of ridership hovers close to 40% (the Cap, Zephyr, and Sunset come in next, at about 20%...the Cap because of endpoint traffic, the Zephyr because of the CHI-DEN market, and the Sunset because of several major overnight markets and not too many daylight ones).

 

[trainviews]

(If you have a dozen trains each way every day on a route, it may make sense to make one of them all-sleeper, if the timetable length of the route is correct. As in Basel-Copenhagen. But you never have sleepers without a coach option.)

And just to clarify - the Copenhagen-Basel train is having it's daytime layover on the railroad terrain in front of my windows - the bulk of the sleepers on the train is actually cars with coach seat compartments for six people that are converted into bunks at night, slumbercoach style. So for the long daytime run through Germany it's actually possible to buy a coach seat for any given distance. To my knowledge only pure tourist operations like the Orient Express run real all sleeper trains.

 

[neroden]

(If you have a dozen trains each way every day on a route, it may make sense to make one of them all-sleeper, if the timetable length of the route is correct. As in Basel-Copenhagen. But you never have sleepers without a coach option.)

And just to clarify - the Copenhagen-Basel train is having it's daytime layover on the railroad terrain in front of my windows - the bulk of the sleepers on the train is actually cars with coach seat compartments for six people that are converted into bunks at night, slumbercoach style.

Yeah -- however, most of Amtrak's sleeper accomodations (roomettes) convert from bunks to seats during the day too, so I didn't think that was worth describing as a difference.

So for the long daytime run through Germany it's actually possible to buy a coach seat for any given distance. To my knowledge only pure tourist operations like the Orient Express run real all sleeper trains.

Since I bothered to look this up on the CityNightLine website, another distinction between Basel-Copenhagen and the other (shorter-distance) CityNightLine routes: the other routes also carry sleeping cars, but all of the other routes also have all-coach cars which *don't* convert to bunks at night.

 

[neroden]

I went over the numbers in another thread, but basically...

The sort of situation where I could see an all-sleeper train would be one where either (A) a train was being split into a sleeper section and a coach section for operational reasons such as train length;

(B) there are two "tightly scheduled" trains and one gets "bumped up" in status for marketing or operational reasons; or © Amtrak is able to somehow get permission to run only one of several trains faster/with higher priority and/or ends up running the "other" train as a local.

Some combination of A, B, and C (which are all really closely related) is effectively what happened when the all-sleeper trains were created back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Basically, the total demand for a given timeslot was high enough that the railroads figured they might as well put all the sleepers behind one locomotive and all the coaches behind another locomotive.

As far as I can tell, there was *never* an all-sleeper train without multiple alternative coach itineraries (possibly involving transfers).

 

[JoeRids]

Until the late 60's, the seasonal all sleeper Florida Special ran from New York to Miami.

This train indeed had coaches from at least the mid 60s on.. I have a SCL timetable from 1969 and 1970 that shows coaches in the consist. This train actually ran up to Amtrak, and in fact Amtrak gave it a shot for the 1971-72 winter season. Just wanted to let you know for accuracy's sake.

 

[Anderson]

Until the late 60's, the seasonal all sleeper Florida Special ran from New York to Miami.

This train indeed had coaches from at least the mid 60s on.. I have a SCL timetable from 1969 and 1970 that shows coaches in the consist. This train actually ran up to Amtrak, and in fact Amtrak gave it a shot for the 1971-72 winter season. Just wanted to let you know for accuracy's sake.

Amtrak not only gave it a shot for the 1971-72 season, but IIRC they gave something similar a shot in several succeeding winters (the Vacationer comes to mind). They also ran the Florida services with far longer trains.

Edit: The Amtrak train most likely to get a split-section treatment would be the LSL, due to platforming issues at NYP.

 

[Paulus]

Until the late 60's, the seasonal all sleeper Florida Special ran from New York to Miami.

This train indeed had coaches from at least the mid 60s on.. I have a SCL timetable from 1969 and 1970 that shows coaches in the consist. This train actually ran up to Amtrak, and in fact Amtrak gave it a shot for the 1971-72 winter season. Just wanted to let you know for accuracy's sake.

Amtrak not only gave it a shot for the 1971-72 season, but IIRC they gave something similar a shot in several succeeding winters (the Vacationer comes to mind). They also ran the Florida services with far longer trains.
Edit: The Amtrak train most likely to get a split-section treatment would be the LSL, due to platforming issues at NYP.

The older cars had rather less capacity though, didn't they?

 

[railiner]

Less capacity? Not if you include the 24-8 Slumbercoaches which slept 40.....Now how many does a Viewliner sleeper carry?

 

[Anderson]

The older cars also included 10-6 sleepers (10 roomettes and 6 bedrooms). The current combo is technically 14-3 instead (the Handicap room costs two "slots" for bedrooms in terms of space; an additional roomette is also lost for the shower). However, the older roomettes were set up for a single occupant while the modern roomettes can host two passengers.

Additionally, the older trains would run with about 5-6 sleepers if I'm not mistaken, and I believe they ran longer at peak seasons (heck, the Meteor still had 4 sleepers and the Star 3 up through about 2003).

 

[jphjaxfl]

The all Pullman trains from NY to Florida went away in early 1950s when the Orange Blossom Special which was a Seaboard All Pullman winter only train with heavy weight Pullmans. The Silver Meteor started out as a coach streamliner. As has been said, the Florida trains continued to carry lots of sleeping cars up through the early years of Amtrak. They carried some of the last deluxe sleeping cars which included Compartments and Drawing Rooms.

The low cost Sleeping Cars on the SCL from New York to Florida were known as Budget Room cars and were built as 14/4 duplex Sleeping Cars for the B&O. They continued to run in the early years of Amtrak. I rode the Vacationer in March, 1973. It left Miami at noon ran up the S line to Jacksonville. It arrived at Richmond Broad Street an hour early around 4:30am with the Champion from the west coast of Florida pulling in just behind. We arrived in DC around 6:30am. It was very fast running with fewer stops. The Vacationer had 6 Sleepers and a Budget Room Car. The Champion also had 6 Sleepers with no Budget Room Car. The dining car was a 1938 SAL streamlined car, very ornate interior. There was full observation lounge that was very crowded and lots of tanned passengers returning home from Florida. Lots of commaroderie in the lounge. The lounge served only beverages and snacks which were served at your seat by lounge attendant that you summoned by pushing a doorbell type button. There were 2 attendants working the lounge. It was a fun trip. I changed to the Broadway LTD in Philadelphia and the Empire Builder in Chicago to my destination of Grand Forks,ND

 

[railiner]

Sounds like you had a great trip....what a wonderful combination of 'exotic' equipment back in that era...I miss those Meteor sleeper lounges, with the glass roofs....

 

[TVRM610]

A truly first class (i.e. not luxury) train running NYC, Philadelphia, Washington, ---> Florida would have more than enough business and could prove profitable in my opinion (notice I said COULD). While there are many many hurdles to clear... seems Pullman Rail Journeys could be set up to try something like this in the future... or even a Chicago to Florida route!

 

[Anderson]

A truly first class (i.e. not luxury) train running NYC, Philadelphia, Washington, ---> Florida would have more than enough business and could prove profitable in my opinion (notice I said COULD). While there are many many hurdles to clear... seems Pullman Rail Journeys could be set up to try something like this in the future... or even a Chicago to Florida route!

I agree on this point. My best guesses as to why Pullman didn't opt for this (or even some sort of run-through to Boston, which should generate significant demand as well) is the undercarriage clearance in NYP (since there's some third rail there). If that's not it, then it would have to be a desire to keep the equipment based in the Midwest.

 

[TVRM610]

I've heard that Pullman wants to run New York to Chicago but Amtrak has given them trouble on running into NYP. So perhaps when that hurdle gets jumped a NYP to Florida train could be possible. I honestly think Pullman could run their own train (without amtrak ) on that route.

 

[Anderson]

I've heard that Pullman wants to run New York to Chicago but Amtrak has given them trouble on running into NYP. So perhaps when that hurdle gets jumped a NYP to Florida train could be possible. I honestly think Pullman could run their own train (without amtrak ) on that route.

I agree. Actually, another thought that has come up in conversations: There are a lot of cruise terminals in Florida, and I know that New York and Boston have them as well. I wonder if someone couldn't work out a deal with the cruise companies to channel passengers onto a cruise company-endorsed train that would stop reasonably close to the terminals and have a guaranteed connection? You could market it as a "seamless experience" (especially if FEC were to open up the line to the Miami docks again) that would be free from the mess that air travel is, and you could set it up as a guaranteed connection as well. I suspect that would give you enough of a base of ridership to at least get something rolling.

Edit: With that said, I'm pretty sure that Pullman could get to the point of running their own limited-stop train (less than Amtrak but likely not non-stop) between the NEC and Florida. They'd need to build to it, though, especially given that CSX isn't likely to just give away slots.

 

[TVRM610]

Totally Agreed Anderson.

I know this is a busy line (WAS-Jacksonville on the CSX) but how full is it? It seems CSX keeps the trains moving pretty well on this line, and it's mostly (if not all?) double track.

Either way.. the very thought that it's "POSSIBLE" that I could ride an "All Pullman" train in the next few years is pretty cool.

 

[neroden]

A truly first class (i.e. not luxury) train running NYC, Philadelphia, Washington, ---> Florida would have more than enough business and could prove profitable in my opinion (notice I said COULD). While there are many many hurdles to clear... seems Pullman Rail Journeys could be set up to try something like this in the future... or even a Chicago to Florida route!

I agree on this point. My best guesses as to why Pullman didn't opt for this (or even some sort of run-through to Boston, which should generate significant demand as well) is the undercarriage clearance in NYP (since there's some third rail there). If that's not it, then it would have to be a desire to keep the equipment based in the Midwest.

Attaching the Pullman Rail Journeys cars to the LSL from NY to Chicago was suggested initially,... but apparently from what I heard, the LSL was just too damn long already. It would have come close to exceeding the platform length at NYP and created trouble at numerous stations down the line. So the LSL's extreme length comes into play again. Maybe we can get a second train on that route?

I have not heard of any proposals to run the Pullman trains down the NEC.

 

[afigg]

Attaching the Pullman Rail Journeys cars to the LSL from NY to Chicago was suggested initially,... but apparently from what I heard, the LSL was just too damn long already. It would have come close to exceeding the platform length at NYP and created trouble at numerous stations down the line. So the LSL's extreme length comes into play again. Maybe we can get a second train on that route?

I have not heard of any proposals to run the Pullman trains down the NEC.

The issue with NYP for the LSL was discussed when the Pullman cars were first announced several years ago with plans to add them onto the LSL. The Empire tunnel can only access up to track 8 at NYP with track 5 to 8 as the tracks used by the Empire service trains and LSL. Platform 3 for track 5 & 6 is 10 cars long, platform 4 for track 7 & 8 is 13 cars long. Adding 3 Pullman cars to the end of the NYP section of the LSL for tracks 7 & 8 was reportedly found to be a problem. Pretty sure jishnu discussed this in detail back then.
The $450 million for the NJ high speed upgrades also includes a project to modify the switch configuration at A interlocking so the Empire tunnel track can access up to track 19. Perhaps once the A interlocking revision work is done, then Pullman cars will be added to the LSL.

OTOH, what Pullman could use is a restoration of the Three Rivers. No track constraints at NYP and they could have passengers board/disembark at Philly for CHI to PHL-NYP luxury travel. Lots of people with serious disposable income and family money in Philly.